So many threads that blame the Church for human failing; why?

[sdc999]

8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Then how is it possible that you know next to nothing about the LDS Church?  Your ignorance is astonishing.  You've got to be a troll.

Oh, there's many many people in the LDS church who know nothing about the LDS church.  I think that fact has been well established; else, why would the essays bring shock to anyone?  Some just nod and say yes at every step because that has been what they were taught.  "you've got to be a troll"  hahahahaha.  He probably thinks you're an @%&$&#$.    Name calling.  One of the finer points of communication. 

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, sdc999 said:

Oh, there's many many people in the LDS church who know nothing about the LDS church.  I think that fact has been well established; else, why would the essays bring shock to anyone?  Some just nod and say yes at every step because that has been what they were taught.  "you've got to be a troll"  hahahahaha.  He probably thinks you're an @%&$&#$.    Name calling.  One of the finer points of communication. 

Sorry, good buddy, but we've had lots of trolls and sock puppets on this board in the past, and he shows all the signs of a non-Mormon posing as a Mormon.  There is nothing new in such dishonesty.  Happens all the time.  So sad that anti-Mormons have such poor morals.  I think that they would make more headway by being honest and forthright.

[sdc999]

9 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Sorry, good buddy, but we've had lots of trolls and sock puppets on this board in the past, and he shows all the signs of a non-Mormon posing as a Mormon.  There is nothing new in such dishonesty.  Happens all the time.  So sad that anti-Mormons have such poor morals.  I think that they would make more headway by being honest and forthright.

Don't sell your own religion so short.  I know plenty of Mormons with poor morals.  Yes, I know some anti's with poor morals as well. 

You could be right about him though. I don't know him. 

[Robert F. Smith]

9 minutes ago, sdc999 said:

Don't sell your own religion so short.  I know plenty of Mormons with poor morals.  Yes, I know some anti's with poor morals as well. 

...............................................

The significant difference is that one does not find LDS members going about vociferously attacking other religions as a kind of vocation or "call."  Mormon authors and bookstores don't produce anti-Baptist, anti-Catholic, anti-Lutheran, anti-Jewish tracts and books, while Christian bookstores are filled with anti-Mormon stuff, and evangelical radio stations take time out to lie about us.  Mormons don't play that game on the internet and social media.  The poor morals I refer to in that context has nothing to do with the private activities of Jack Mormons or lapsed Catholics, but rather with the venom and bile so evident in anti-Mormon palaver.  As evangelical pastor Richard Mouw has said repeatedly:

Quote

I am now convinced that we evangelicals have often seriously misrepresented the beliefs and practices of the Mormon community.  Indeed, let me state it bluntly to the LDS folks here this evening, we have sinned against you.  -- in Salt Lake Tabernacle, Nov 2004.

 

[sdc999]

5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The significant difference is that one does not find LDS members going about vociferously attacking other religions as a kind of vocation or "call."  Mormon authors and bookstores don't produce anti-Baptist, anti-Catholic, anti-Lutheran, anti-Jewish tracts and books, while Christian bookstores are filled with anti-Mormon stuff, and evangelical radio stations take time out to lie about us.  Mormons don't play that game on the internet and social media.  The poor morals I refer to in that context has nothing to do with the private activities of Jack Mormons or lapsed Catholics, but rather with the venom and bile so evident in anti-Mormon palaver.  As evangelical pastor Richard Mouw has said repeatedly:

 

You are correct but it has to come with some further explanation.  I don't know of too many religions that are as entrenched as the LDS.  People really do risk friendships, business and even family relationships when they choose to leave.  This can be quite devastating.  And some choose to lash out at what they perceive as a destructive entity.  On a personal note: when my family left, I can count on one hand minus most of my fingers how many friends (women) spoke or reached out and maintained their friendships with my wife.  She was devastated for a long time.  I probably lashed out because my wife was hurt.  Did I lie - nope but I was called a liar by several for stating many of the things that the church has now published in the essays.  Were my kids invited over to play with friends of many years - nope...  Explain that to a 12 and 10 year old as they cry and ask why.  Shunning was amazing.  My own MIL did not speak to me for 7 months. (some might consider this a blessing  )    So both sides tend to play their cards -  they just play their hands differently.

Hey, we didn't leave to become something different.  We didn't turn into devil worshippers or even atheists.  We have an amazingly healthy church life.  We have a testimony of Christ as our Savior.  

[Calm]

I just can't understand how a ward could be like that.  What happened to them, did they all turn into 8th grade girls?  Just wrong.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, sdc999 said:

You are correct but it has to come with some further explanation.  I don't know of too many religions that are as entrenched as the LDS.  People really do risk friendships, business and even family relationships when they choose to leave.  This can be quite devastating.  And some choose to lash out at what they perceive as a destructive entity.  On a personal note: when my family left, I can count on one hand minus most of my fingers how many friends (women) spoke or reached out and maintained their friendships with my wife.  She was devastated for a long time.  I probably lashed out because my wife was hurt.  Did I lie - nope but I was called a liar by several for stating many of the things that the church has now published in the essays.  Were my kids invited over to play with friends of many years - nope...  Explain that to a 12 and 10 year old as they cry and ask why.  Shunning was amazing.  My own MIL did not speak to me for 7 months. (some might consider this a blessing  )    So both sides tend to play their cards -  they just play their hands differently.

Hey, we didn't leave to become something different.  We didn't turn into devil worshippers or even atheists.  We have an amazingly healthy church life.  We have a testimony of Christ as our Savior.  

Maybe they feared that such a group apostasy might be contagious.  You were probably in a largely Mormon area.  Bear in mind that most Mormons are not very sophisticated in matters of history or theology -- the fact that you actually spoke to them on sensitive matters probably confirmed their suspicions and paranoia, even if you were largely correct.  They were not able to adequately defend themselves because they lacked depth.  What may be fair game here on this board probably ought not to be used for shock effect on ordinary members.

I do have a younger brother who apostatized, but he doesn't spend much time inveighing against the Church.  Even attends ward socials with his still loyal family.

[sdc999]

6 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Maybe they feared that such a group apostasy might be contagious.  You were probably in a largely Mormon area.  Bear in mind that most Mormons are not very sophisticated in matters of history or theology -- the fact that you actually spoke to them on sensitive matters probably confirmed their suspicions and paranoia, even if you were largely correct.  They were not able to adequately defend themselves because they lacked depth.  What may be fair game here on this board probably ought not to be used for shock effect on ordinary members.

I do have a younger brother who apostatized, but he doesn't spend much time inveighing against the Church.  Even attends ward socials with his still loyal family.

Actually, a small Mormon area but I think the contagiousness theory may be accurate.  But this plays back to what I said before.  Mormons really take this personally as an attack against the church when someone leaves.  They must fortify and strengthen the perimeter.   We didn't leave with the intention of bringing the church down.  We left for what we believe is a better path for our family and our relationship with our Savior.  I did have a couple of different people approach me in confidence thereafter.  They would love to do the same thing but the fear of losing family was just too great.    This was 8 years ago.  Fast forward:  One of the girls that grew up with my daughters and was no longer allowed to have them over has stepped away from the church.  She and her husband visited with us about six  months ago at the urging of her aunt.  She knew we would be fair and honest.    The pain in this girl's eyes was frightening.  The ostracizing by her parents was heartbreaking.  They were a young couple and stretched with their finances and relied upon assistance from her parents, but the assistance was with LDS strings attached.   Her husband was me  several years ago.  Intense and wanting to lash out because of his wife's pain. Things have become better for them recently and their family is growing more accepting.  But this is a reinforcement of the example that many go through when they leave.     This isn't some run of the mill couple (parents) either.  Very successful and intelligent.   This is perhaps a topic unto itself though.          

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, sdc999 said:

Actually, a small Mormon area but I think the contagiousness theory may be accurate.  But this plays back to what I said before.  Mormons really take this personally as an attack against the church when someone leaves.  They must fortify and strengthen the perimeter.   We didn't leave with the intention of bringing the church down.  We left for what we believe is a better path for our family and our relationship with our Savior.  I did have a couple of different people approach me in confidence thereafter.  They would love to do the same thing but the fear of losing family was just too great.    This was 8 years ago.  Fast forward:  One of the girls that grew up with my daughters and was no longer allowed to have them over has stepped away from the church.  She and her husband visited with us about six  months ago at the urging of her aunt.  She knew we would be fair and honest.    The pain in this girl's eyes was frightening.  The ostracizing by her parents was heartbreaking.  They were a young couple and stretched with their finances and relied upon assistance from her parents, but the assistance was with LDS strings attached.   Her husband was me  several years ago.  Intense and wanting to lash out because of his wife's pain. Things have become better for them recently and their family is growing more accepting.  But this is a reinforcement of the example that many go through when they leave.     This isn't some run of the mill couple (parents) either.  Very successful and intelligent.   This is perhaps a topic unto itself though.          

This doesn't always happen, but is not uncommon whenever people leave their culture group and move into another one.  Readjustments can be difficult for all concerned, but it works both ways.  Those converting to or from Mormonism, for example, can be subjected to enormous family and social pressures.  That is normal, even if we agree that it shouldn't happen.  The mutual demonizing is so sad and unnecessary.

[Guest]

On March 30, 2016 at 0:32 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

So your response is to change the goal posts, as here, and claim that you have found a scholar who agrees with some changed claims, which I did not ask you about.  Does this mean that you are now denying that your earlier claims are true, and that you overreached?  For you are manifestly unable to find a real non-Mormon scholar who will support your earlier sick views (views you stated explicitly, but which you now disown).  What's it gonna be?

As you noted, whenever others who find themselves losing the debate, they find it easier to move the goalposts. So rather than play better, be better and understand better. They seek to make the playing field round to continue in circular arguments, seeking to plant the flag, in a hope that others will tire of the debate. 

Edited April 4, 2016 by Pa Pa