ALarson Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: One can help meet a lot of social-services sorts of needs just by contributing a generous fast offering or giving to the Church's humanitarian fund. Never said they couldn't Maybe read my post again if you feel I was inferring that. I was giving an example of doing something in addition to paying tithing and fast offerings. If one can afford to do this, it's rewarding. It's also a great missionary opportunity! My wife and I have met some incredible people getting involved with this home and being able to volunteer there. . Edited March 23, 2016 by ALarson 1
Scott Lloyd Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 43 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Rock has been interviewed on Bill Reel's podcast. I suspect (though I can't state with certainty) that Waterman influenced Reel's ideas about tithing. Please don't derail the thread by making it about a person. Oops. Looks like I've been reported. As stated, I've said my peace and was finished with this several posts ago. I've only responded to comments since then.
Scott Lloyd Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 (edited) 7 minutes ago, ALarson said: Never said they couldn't Maybe read my post again if you feel I was inferring that. I was giving an example of doing something in addition to paying tithing and fast offerings. Did you mean to say "if you feel I was implying that"? Infer and imply don't mean the same thing. See here for an explanation. And no, I didn't meant to suggest you were implying something you were not. I only felt the need to point out that donations to the Church have broader application than some folks might recognize. Edited March 23, 2016 by Scott Lloyd 1
ALarson Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 10 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Oops. Looks like I've been reported. I didn't do it, I promise!! I've never reported anyone here....yet...
Scott Lloyd Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 Just now, ALarson said: I didn't do it, I promise!! I've never reported anyone here....yet... Then I absolve you.
stemelbow Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Hardly. I don't know it seems a message from Joseph was that his followers would learn to be prophets themselves.
Jeanne Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: For tax purposes, I always claim as a charitable donation what I pay in tithing. It is the prudent thing to do. Fast offerings as well. And the money I pay to support my missionary son. I did too. But if you feel it may not be necessary to pay tithing on a refund, wouldn't be nice to give to a charity that is local and needs your help?
Scott Lloyd Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 (edited) 23 hours ago, stemelbow said: I don't know it seems a message from Joseph was that his followers would learn to be prophets themselves. Moses too (see Numbers 11:29). But i would never compare either one of them to Waterman. Edited March 24, 2016 by Scott Lloyd
Scott Lloyd Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 33 minutes ago, Jeanne said: I did too. But if you feel it may not be necessary to pay tithing on a refund, wouldn't be nice to give to a charity that is local and needs your help? Of course.
Robert F. Smith Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 15 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Perhaps the farmer should pay himself a "salary" out of the profits and then pay tithing on that. In this way there wouldn't be any years in which the farmer was paying no tithing at all, because I doubt he would starve himself and his family just because his farm failed to make a profit in a given year. I don't know. It would be up to the farmer to work that out. However, even in years in which he is in the red, his garden may produce enough to eat -- known as subsistence farming in some parts of the world (there are people in my neighborhood who grow enough, and can it, so that they could survive on it all year long). So you are saying that he owes ten percent of that. However, even the IRS allows income averaging over a period of years so that one is not penalized for high income years, but is balanced by low or zero income years. Carrying a heavy debt burden can be onerous. During the Great Depression, when people barely got by, if at all, they would still pay tithing to my grandfather in kind (chickens, fruit, vegetables, pies, etc.) -- he was a Methodist minister, who had his wife and kids out operating orchards, etc., so that they could sell the produce, in order for the family to get by. Sometimes we don't realize just how tough times can get. We forget the prior planning of Joseph who was sold into Egypt: Seven years of plenty were used to prepare for seven years of lean. That may be a lesson for how to consider the need to place our tithes and offerings in the storehouse. There may be times when we need to be on the receiving end, when we just cannot give. 2
rpn Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 Tithing is not a matter of need. When you think through what your increase is and what tithing is, and you determine an amount and get spiritual confirmation, you still don't NEED to pay that amount. You presumably WANT to contribute in that amount to the Lord's work. I've never been quite sure what the value is of paying tithing because one feels compelled in some way to do so. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 9 minutes ago, rpn said: Tithing is not a matter of need. When you think through what your increase is and what tithing is, and you determine an amount and get spiritual confirmation, you still don't NEED to pay that amount. You presumably WANT to contribute in that amount to the Lord's work. I've never been quite sure what the value is of paying tithing because one feels compelled in some way to do so. noblesse oblige?
BCSpace Posted March 24, 2016 Posted March 24, 2016 21 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Actually, the bishop and stake president should say "10% of your interest" (D&C 119:3; or "increase" Deut 14:22), and the rest is left up to you. Naturally the question of "interest, increase" will differ for a farmer or stock-broker as opposed to a wage-earner. The best guide is the First Presidency Letter of May 19, 1970 (which is also used by the General Handbook of Instructions): “What is a proper tithe?” “For your guidance in this matter, please be advised that we have uniformly replied that the simplest statement we know of is that statement of the Lord himself that the members of the Church should pay one-tenth of all their INTEREST annually, which is understood to mean income. NO ONE IS JUSTIFIED IN MAKING ANY OTHER STATEMENT THAN THIS. We feel that every member of the Church should be ENTITLED TO MAKE HIS OWN DECISION as to what he thinks he owes the Lord, and to make payment accordingly.” We have previously discussed this matter here on this board at http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/61279-tithing-gross-net-or-leftover/ . Correct. I merely said it in fewer words.
sdc999 Posted March 24, 2016 Posted March 24, 2016 On 3/23/2016 at 0:08 AM, Scott Lloyd said: Now if you're Bill Reel, you only pay tithing on what's left over after you've paid all your bills and bought everything you want. Which, for most of us, would mean paying tithing on zero. "If you're born poor, it's not your mistake, but if you die poor, it's your mistake." Bill Gates
VAUFLDS Posted March 25, 2016 Posted March 25, 2016 I pay on gross minus contribution to 401K and Social Security since I don't receive them right away and earnings and the like complicate things (no need to pay on the contributed portion twice). Will pay tithing when I draw on them. My children can determine for themselves if they want to pay tithing on whatever of my 401k is left for them when I'm gone.
Scott Lloyd Posted March 25, 2016 Posted March 25, 2016 15 hours ago, VAUFLDS said: I pay on gross minus contribution to 401K and Social Security since I don't receive them right away and earnings and the like complicate things (no need to pay on the contributed portion twice). Will pay tithing when I draw on them. My children can determine for themselves if they want to pay tithing on whatever of my 401k is left for them when I'm gone. What about other savings? You don't use that right away either. Social Security is more old-age insurance than it is a savings account. Do you tithe the money you spend for insurance?
thesometimesaint Posted March 25, 2016 Posted March 25, 2016 (edited) 17 hours ago, sdc999 said: "If you're born poor, it's not your mistake, but if you die poor, it's your mistake." Bill Gates It is far more complex. SEE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmQujWTMuC8 Edited March 25, 2016 by thesometimesaint
mtomm Posted March 25, 2016 Posted March 25, 2016 18 hours ago, sdc999 said: "If you're born poor, it's not your mistake, but if you die poor, it's your mistake." Bill Gates Says someone with a whole lotta privilege. Bill didn't come from a poor family and had all sorts of advantages that made his success possible. I admire what he does with his money and don't resent him his success but this is too a broad statement to say about others. 3
Rain Posted March 26, 2016 Posted March 26, 2016 11 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: What about other savings? You don't use that right away either. Social Security is more old-age insurance than it is a savings account. Do you tithe the money you spend for insurance? Why do you want to know? Just curious or do you want to debate it?
Monster Posted March 26, 2016 Posted March 26, 2016 You do not have to pay tithing at all if you choose not to. Paying on tax refunds is purely voluntary. If you wore looking for some kind of doctrinal answer it does to exist. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted March 26, 2016 Posted March 26, 2016 (edited) 15 hours ago, Rain said: Why do you want to know? Just curious or do you want to debate it? Just expressing rhetorical or thought questions. Seems like every comment on this board is open to response or question -- except someone's quirky definition of tithing. That is shielded as sacrosanct by the unwritten commandment: Thou shalt not comment on or question someone's quirky definition of tithing. Or something like that. Edited March 26, 2016 by Scott Lloyd
Scott Lloyd Posted March 26, 2016 Posted March 26, 2016 (edited) On March 23, 2016 at 0:29 AM, Robert F. Smith said: Sounds like a zero-sum game. However, what happens to a farmer who has a year with no profit at all -- went into the hole buying/renting equipment, seed, fertilizer, etc., then a bad crop or eaten by locusts? No increase-interest, but in following years he may have bumper crops and he has plenty of increase. Most of us no longer farm, and figuring out ten percent of our wages is not too difficult. That's the Lord's take, and he owns a hundred percent of everything anyhow. He just allows us to manage it. It is a test of our stewardship, but his kingdom on the Earth does need operating funds, and we need to give a little extra to help out the needy. That tests our faith and love, until we return to him and hear his words of comfort about being "a good and faithful servant," or something else . . . People who live paycheck to paycheck are comparable to the subsistence farmer you speak of. It's hand-to-mouth in either instance. Under the tithe-the-surplus-only argument, such an individual would never tithe at all -- and never exercise the faith and sacrifice attendant thereto. With all the stinginess and nit pickiness we seem to have lost sight of the import of the story of Elijah and the widow of Zerephath. Edited March 26, 2016 by Scott Lloyd
Rain Posted March 27, 2016 Posted March 27, 2016 11 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Just expressing rhetorical or thought questions. Seems like every comment on this board is open to response or question -- except someone's quirky definition of tithing. That is shielded as sacrosanct by the unwritten commandment: Thou shalt not comment on or question someone's quirky definition of tithing. Or something like that. I have no problem with thought questions and discussing tithing and how to do it. I'm just uncomfortable questioning the way a person personally feels is right for them as I assume VAUFLDS feels when he told how he does his tithing. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted March 27, 2016 Posted March 27, 2016 8 hours ago, Rain said: I have no problem with thought questions and discussing tithing and how to do it. I'm just uncomfortable questioning the way a person personally feels is right for them as I assume VAUFLDS feels when he told how he does his tithing. If you are OK with thought questions, you should have no objection to my post. Response posts based on content (as opposed to those intended to shut down conversation) are welcome.
TweetyKim Posted April 16, 2019 Posted April 16, 2019 On 3/22/2016 at 9:54 PM, BCSpace said: Completely up to you. The only answer you'll get from a Bishop or Stake president is "10% of your income". No statements on gross or net, etc. If one paid tithing on gross, the one might justify not paying tithing on a tax return (or Social Security income, etc.) but that's not necessarily an accurate accounting of what is10%. But then again, that's entirely up to you. I was baptized in 1977 and always heard 1) that your tithing contribution is between you and the Lord, but 2) it should be on gross income for that is your total 'increase.' To me it stands to reason that if you tithe on gross then your refund is already money that has been tithed on, however if you tithe on net income then you should tithe on any refund. Social Security should be tithed on (in my humble opinion) because you are receiving more in benefit than you put in over the years. I receive SSD and I tithe on that. In the end though I revert to my original statement...it is between you and the Lord.
Recommended Posts