why me Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 6 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: My theory is that most individuals won't look at porn very often when religions stop making a big deal about that. Of course, this would mean that it is mainly religious people who look at it. But I don't think that this is true. We are living in a different world today with the smart phone, ipads, laptops etc. And many teenagers and younger chldren have access to these things. So, what impression of the sex act do teenagers get from watching porn? When has porn catered to the emotional aspects of having sex with someone? Porn is basically not just guiltless sex, it is also emotional free. No strings, nothing attached. It is a complete symbol of not thinking of the other but only of oneself. And for most people who are involved in the movies, it does come with a price to the human spirit. And when the work is done, a complete disconnection between the partners in the act,
Kenngo1969 Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 (edited) 5 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: ... Even if porn addiction is real, it would obviously be extremely rare. ... CFR. You know, as long as we're asking for data, and all! (I'm sure you have no idea you've just been hoisted on your own petard, so I won't hold my breath waiting for you to respond to my CFR. Carry on!) Edited March 21, 2016 by Kenngo1969 2
pogi Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 (edited) 10 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: I was defining addiction as simply spending a lot of time. This shows your ignorance on the matter. Edited March 21, 2016 by pogi 1
TheSkepticChristian Posted March 21, 2016 Author Posted March 21, 2016 (edited) 47 minutes ago, pogi said: This shows your ignorance on the matter. or perhaps I was simply using a popular definition, it is common. 6 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said: CFR. You know, as long as we're asking for data, and all! (I'm sure you have no idea you've just been hoisted on your own petard, so I won't hold my breath waiting for you to respond to my CFR. Carry on!) No Mr. The burden of proof falls on you. Show me evidence that porn addiction (wants to stop, but can't) is common or happens to many? I just presented this scientific paper many times. Now the burden or proof falls on you to prove that porn addiction is real and significant in the population. Modulation of late positive potentials by sexual images in problem users and controls inconsistent with “porn addiction” http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301051115300107 10 hours ago, why me said: . So, what impression of the sex act do teenagers get from watching porn? When has porn catered to the emotional aspects of having sex with someone? Porn is basically not just guiltless sex, it is also emotional free. No strings, nothing attached. It is a complete symbol of not thinking of the other but only of oneself. And for most people who are involved in the movies, it does come with a price to the human spirit. And when the work is done, a complete disconnection between the partners in the act, ??? Well again, regardless of the interpretation, religious states do watch more porn. "Do American States with more religious or conservative populations search more for sexual content on google?" and religious states also spend more time watching porn. Edited March 21, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
Popular Post pogi Posted March 21, 2016 Popular Post Posted March 21, 2016 (edited) 44 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: No Mr. The burden of proof falls on you. Show me evidence that porn addiction (wants to stop, but can't) is common or happens to many? Sorry, but "want's to stop, but can't" is not the definition of addiction either. That is not what Bernard said. He said they lack control. Addicts don't always want to stop, I submit that most porn viewers don't want to stop. They believe they can if they want to, but don't know because they haven't tried. The fact that those who DO want to stop, self-identify as addicts more frequently seems to corroborate my point. You say that you have never met someone who has wanted to stop but could not stop on their own...hello, my name is pogi. Now you have. P.S. I have always identified as "highly" religious. Edited March 21, 2016 by pogi 7
pogi Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 35 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Modulation of late positive potentials by sexual images in problem users and controls inconsistent with “porn addiction” http://www.yourbrainonporn.com/modulation-late-positive-potentials-sexual-images-problem-users-and-controls-inconsistent-porn
TheSkepticChristian Posted March 21, 2016 Author Posted March 21, 2016 (edited) 27 minutes ago, pogi said: http://www.yourbrainonporn.com/modulation-late-positive-potentials-sexual-images-problem-users-and-controls-inconsistent-porn Very nice, but will it get published in a respected scientific Journal? Don't tell me about conspiracy theories again, I had enough of the anti-global warming conspiracy theories. "Popular antiporn advocates such as YourBrainonPorn (link is external) and the group called Fight The New Drug (link is external), argue that porn use is a public health issue, not a free speech issue. These advocates often assert that if people and society only knew the damage that porn use was causing to our brains, that we would regulate it, in ourselves, and in the access that is allowed. Over recent years, these fear-based arguments often invoke brain-related lingo, and throw around terms like dopamine bursts and desensitization, to describe what allegedly happens in the brains of people who watch too much porn. Brain science is hot these days, and it’s attention-getting to use brain and neuroscience lingo in arguments, because it sounds so gosh-darned convincing and scientific. The problem is, there has been extremely little research that actually looks at the brains and behaviors of people using porn, and no good, experimental research that has looked at the brains of those who are allegedly addicted to porn. So, all of these arguments are theoretical, and based on rhetoric, inferences and applying other research findings to try to explain sexual behaviors. Fascinating, rigorous new research has now been done, which actually examined the brains of alleged sex addicts, and guess what? The results are a bit different than the rhetoric. In fact, the results don’t support that sex addiction is real, or reflects any unique brain-related issues at all..." https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/women-who-stray/201307/your-brain-porn-its-not-addictive 35 minutes ago, pogi said: You say that you have never met someone who has wanted to stop but could not...hello, my name is pogi. Now you have. Hello, finally I know someone. I also like women, but I never watched online porn in my life, but sometimes I feel that God treats me like a porn addict. Anyways, it is true that religious states spend more time watching online porn, and more views too. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25277691 Edited March 21, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
pogi Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 (edited) 52 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: In fact, the results don’t support that sex addiction is real, or reflects any unique brain-related issues at all..." It is good to know that I just imagined my 10 year struggle through the deepest darkest hell of my life. It wasn't really an addiction, I was just weak in spirit. It was just the "forbidden fruit" theory in action, I just couldn't resist, I was so weak! Let's get one thing straight, the diagnosis of addiction is not done with an MRI scan. To compare MRI scans of behavioral addictions with substance addictions is not good science. I don't care if it was published in a scientific journal. Edited March 21, 2016 by pogi 2
pogi Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 (edited) To your question about the correlation of religiosity and porn use. I agree that those statistics are troubling and something needs to be done. I believe that religion IS to blame to some degree, but not for the ridiculous "forbidden fruit" theory that you mention. There is a right way and a wrong way to fight pornography. Shame is never the right way. No clear boundaries is never the right way. Historically, religion has used very shaming rhetoric against pornography consumption. I believe that has only made matters worse, but not because it makes it "more attractive" as you say. Thankfully, things are changing with deeper understanding of addiction and the effect of shame on addiction. The non-shaming 12 step programs are a huge step in the right direction. Pornography addiction is only the symptom of a deeper and more pervasive disease - toxic shame. Not speaking out about porn is NOT an option!!! You disagree with using the word "disease" in relation to porn addiction, but the word "disease" is perhaps the least shaming and most effective language that can be used. Speaking about porn addiction as an unintentional and addictive disease, rather than a sinful perversion of the weak in spirit and self-control, is a sign that religion is moving in the right direction. It is a disease, not a choice. Nobody chooses porn addiction. It is a disease that requires treatment, not a perversion that requires stronger will-power. Porn addiction is a real problem. It is not a problem for only the "weak in testimony". That characterization is false, and it is shaming Skeptic. You are hurting, not helping the problem. Learn wisdom from someone who has been there and knows. Edited March 21, 2016 by pogi 3
Raingirl Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 1 hour ago, TheSkepticChristian said: ...... God treats me like a porn addict. In what ways exactly? 1
TheSkepticChristian Posted March 21, 2016 Author Posted March 21, 2016 57 minutes ago, pogi said: It is good to know that I just imagined my 10 year struggle through the deepest darkest hell of my life. I have no comment about that, we can't analyze a personal testimony. 41 minutes ago, pogi said: I agree that those statistics are troubling and something needs to be done. I believe that religion IS to blame to some degree, but not for the ridiculous "forbidden fruit" theory that you mention. There is a right way and a wrong way to fight pornography. Shame is never the right way. No clear boundaries is never the right way. Historically, religion has used very shaming rhetoric against pornography consumption. I believe that has only made matters worse, THANK YOU! Now we are getting somewhere. 42 minutes ago, pogi said: You disagree with using the word "disease" in relation to porn addiction, but the word "disease" is perhaps the least shaming and most effective language that can be used. Speaking about porn addiction as an unintentional and addictive disease, rather than a sinful perversion of the weak in spirit and self-control, is a sign that religion is moving in the right direction. We will see about that, but for now please give me peer-reviewed evidence that it is an addiction. 43 minutes ago, pogi said: Porn addiction is a real problem. It is not a problem for only the "weak in testimony". I really doubt it is a problem for new atheists and naturalists.
pogi Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 (edited) 52 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: I have no comment about that, we can't analyze a personal testimony. Talk to any bishop, they will all corroborate my story in that it is not a unique, but a pervasive problem (wanting to stop, but not being able to). The church doesn't publish those statistics for the public to analyze, but a little 'asking around' will leave you with no doubt that I am not making this stuff up to win an argument. 52 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: THANK YOU! Now we are getting somewhere. Really? I wasn't agreeing with you. I was disputing your theory. 52 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: We will see about that, but for now please give me peer-reviewed evidence that it is an addiction. You will no doubt find reason to dismiss the compilation of evidence and scientific thought: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3050060/ http://yourbrainonporn.com/book/export/html/239 52 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: I really doubt it is a problem for new atheists and naturalists. I have no comment about that, we can't analyze personal assumption - I couldn't resist. I can introduce you to one if you would like. You can meet a few of them here: http://www.no-porn.com I highly encourage you to visit the forum and get a taste for what porn addiction is really about and how it affects people. It will give you a little taste of the pervasiveness and serious nature of the problem. Edited March 21, 2016 by pogi 2
TheSkepticChristian Posted March 21, 2016 Author Posted March 21, 2016 2 hours ago, pogi said: You will no doubt find reason to dismiss the compilation of evidence and scientific thought: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3050060/ I will read you first link because it is a scientific paper, not the other one. 2 hours ago, pogi said: I have no comment about that, we can't analyze personal assumption - I couldn't resist. I can introduce you to one if you would like. You can meet a few of them here: http://www.no-porn.com but stats disagree. I don't think there is a significant number of porn viewers that are new atheists.
Mars Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 (edited) I had a huge post all written up. It went nowhere. I swear I hit 'post,' but it's not here. Fantastic. My point: blah blah blah we're still learning a ton about pornography as an addiction. Consider the fact that in 2009, a University of Montreal study couldn't find any young men who had never consumed porn. They couldn't create a control group. Read about it here. The scientific approach is dealing with the difficulty of such a new subject. We're still trying to answer the question of whether or not it's addictive. Internet pornography is new. It takes awhile to connect cause and effect in the massive aggregate of time, space, and people. (Both links are reputable sources.) Myopically focusing on the taboo nature removes the context of the discussion. Hand waving and saying "people who don't consider it wrong to do it aren't addicted, ergo the only thing that makes it addictive is the taboo" is a gross over simplification. For my money, pornography addiction is real. Edited March 21, 2016 by Mars 4
pogi Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, TheSkepticChristian said: but stats disagree. Your stats don't distinguish atheists from non-atheists in those States, sorry! The percentage of atheists in this country is so low, that if all of them viewed porn everyday (or not), it wouldn't affect your stats very much. You may not think that stats agree, but history clearly does. The history of pornography basically shows that if you have a *enis, you like to look at naked women and sexual images. It dates back to "prehistoric" times. Are you seriously suggesting that the increased quality (pictures/videos), quantity, and accessibility of pornography has actually led to a decreased viewing rate among men who don't believe in God? Edited March 21, 2016 by pogi
TheSkepticChristian Posted March 21, 2016 Author Posted March 21, 2016 (edited) 51 minutes ago, pogi said: Your stats don't distinguish atheists from non-atheists in those States, sorry! The percentage of atheists in this country is so low, that if all of them viewed porn everyday (or not), it wouldn't affect your stats very much. Okay, I will give you a point for that. However, in New Hampshire 1/3 people seriously doubt the existence of God according to Pew. http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/belief-in-god/by/state/ It is seen as the less religious state, but it is also a state with very low porn time. http://www.gallup.com/poll/189038/new-hampshire-least-religious-state.aspx Yes, of course men like to see women and sexual images, I am not saying Atheists avoid porn, but I don't think porn is a serious problem (affects their life) to most of them (Atheists and "nones"). Edited March 21, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
Raingirl Posted March 22, 2016 Posted March 22, 2016 6 hours ago, Raingirl said: In what ways exactly? Still waiting for an answer....in what ways exactly does God treat you like a porn addict?
Bernard Gui Posted March 22, 2016 Posted March 22, 2016 (edited) On March 21, 2016 at 11:07 PM, TheSkepticChristian said: There is no such thing as addiction to,pornography because.....you have I was defining addiction as simply spending a lot of time. Your definition of porn addiction probably doesn't exists. I don't know anyone who truly wishes to stop watching porn, but can't. Read Paper, http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301051115300107. Even if porn addiction is real, it would obviously be extremely rare. Addiction to pornography does not exist because................you don't know anyone who truly doesn't want to stop? After pages of discussion you say you think addiction is............simply spending a lot of time?? Perhaps you should attend a 12-step recovery meeting and get some education. https://addictionrecovery.lds.org/find-a-meeting?lang=eng I have 8 years experience trying to help porn addicts and their families with varying degrees of success. I work closely with professional LDS counsellors. Don't pretend it doesn't exist. It's real and it's awful....extremely difficult to overcome. Here are a few stories from real people that may expand your horizons: https://addictionrecovery.lds.org/videos?at=s&lang=eng&page-length=9&start=1&tags=pornography&v=NTAxMTU4OTM3NDM3NDc5ODE3NDAtZW5n https://addictionrecovery.lds.org/videos?at=ff&lang=eng&page-length=9&start=1&tags=pornography What Pogi said. Edited March 22, 2016 by Bernard Gui 2
Bernard Gui Posted March 22, 2016 Posted March 22, 2016 Skeptic All: The sources you cite appear to be not up to date. You may wish to read this recent paper... Neuroscience of Internet Pornography Addiction: A Review and Update http://www.mdpi.com/2076-328X/5/3/388/htm Abstract : Many recognize that several behaviors potentially affecting the reward circuitry in human brains lead to a loss of control and other symptoms of addiction in at least some individuals. Regarding Internet addiction, neuroscientific research supports the assumption that underlying neural processes are similar to substance addiction. The American Psychiatric Association (APA) has recognized one such Internet related behavior, Internet gaming, as a potential addictive disorder warranting further study, in the 2013 revision of their Diagnostic and Statistical Manual. Other Internet related behaviors, e.g., Internet pornography use, were not covered. Within this review, we give a summary of the concepts proposed underlying addiction and give an overview about neuroscientific studies on Internet addiction and Internet gaming disorder. Moreover, we reviewed available neuroscientific literature on Internet pornography addiction and connect the results to the addiction model. The review leads to the conclusion that Internet pornography addiction fits into the addiction framework and shares similar basic mechanisms with substance addiction. Together with studies on Internet addiction and Internet Gaming Disorder we see strong evidence for considering addictive Internet behaviors as behavioral addiction. Future research needs to address whether or not there are specific differences between substance and behavioral addiction. 1
pogi Posted March 22, 2016 Posted March 22, 2016 16 hours ago, Mars said: I had a huge post all written up. It went nowhere. I swear I hit 'post,' but it's not here. Fantastic. I had the exact same thing happen to me yesterday! I had a long post all written up and right before I hit "submit reply", I copied and pasted my post n another document, just in case. I just had an intuition, because I never do that. Yep, it didn't post. I was happy to have my comment on a backup document, so I copy and pasted it back in a reply...didn't post. I tried again and again...didn't post. Finally, I logged out, closed the website, cleared cache and cookies, and even restarted my computer. This time instead of copy and pasting the response, I hand typed the response and hit "submit"...didn't post! I threw my hands up in complete exacerbation! Right after that, I posted a different response...it posted. Then again...it posted. I tried copy and pasting my response one more time...didn't post! It just wasn't supposed to happen I guess. Perhaps it was so good that Skeptic was not ready for such profound enlightenment, and divine intervention was required 1
Gray Posted March 22, 2016 Posted March 22, 2016 17 hours ago, Mars said: I had a huge post all written up. It went nowhere. I swear I hit 'post,' but it's not here. Fantastic. It pays to post short one-liners! That's the secret to my success. 2
pogi Posted March 22, 2016 Posted March 22, 2016 (edited) 17 hours ago, Mars said: My point: blah blah blah we're still learning a ton about pornography as an addiction. Consider the fact that in 2009, a University of Montreal study couldn't find any young men who had never consumed porn. They couldn't create a control group. Read about it here. The scientific approach is dealing with the difficulty of such a new subject. We're still trying to answer the question of whether or not it's addictive. Internet pornography is new. It takes awhile to connect cause and effect in the massive aggregate of time, space, and people. (Both links are reputable sources.) Myopically focusing on the taboo nature removes the context of the discussion. Hand waving and saying "people who don't consider it wrong to do it aren't addicted, ergo the only thing that makes it addictive is the taboo" is a gross over simplification. For my money, pornography addiction is real. Excellent post and articles. Thanks! Those are very good points. You know Skeptic, it took over 2 decades for gambling to finally be included and accepted as an addiction in the DSM. But make no mistake, those suffering from gambling addiction before that time, didn't need the DSM to tell them that they were addicts. What is sad is that Internet gaming (a far less pervasive problem in society) research received more grants and funding, and thus far more research and attention than pornography. Internet gaming is now included as an addiction in the DSM for that reason, while pornography is still waiting for funding to study it further. That is sad. Until then, porn addicts will be perceived as weak-willed, weak in testimony, forbidden-fruit seekers, etc., by those who need a "peer-reviewed" paper to tell them otherwise. Not only is that a shameful and inaccurate depiction of those suffering with this problem, it will only serve to make it worse. Insisting that the church stop the campaign against pornography is only going to make matters worse. It is an ignorant idea based on a theory born from non-specific statistics and absolutely no research or literature to suggest that it would actually work. That is irresponsible and dangerous. Be patient Skeptic, the literature suggests that they need more time and research, don't jump to conclusions so quickly. Just like the gambling addicts before me, I am confident that the DSM will one day recognize what I already know to be true from experience. Acceptance into a manual, isn't going to make it any more true for me. Edited March 22, 2016 by pogi 1
TheSkepticChristian Posted March 22, 2016 Author Posted March 22, 2016 8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Skeptic All: The sources you cite appear to be not up to date. You may wish to read this recent paper... Now we have a discussion. I like it when others challenge me with recent scientific papers, and the Journal does seem to be reputable. Here is a better link of your Paper http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26393658 Good job! our source should always be the scientific literature. I will read it and will get back to you. However, I still think porn wouldn't be a problem (addiction) for most new atheists, naturalists, and agnostics.
Calm Posted March 23, 2016 Posted March 23, 2016 11 hours ago, pogi said: I had the exact same thing happen to me yesterday! I had a long post all written up and right before I hit "submit reply", I copied and pasted my post n another document, just in case. I just had an intuition, because I never do that. Yep, it didn't post. I was happy to have my comment on a backup document, so I copy and pasted it back in a reply...didn't post. I tried again and again...didn't post. Finally, I logged out, closed the website, cleared cache and cookies, and even restarted my computer. This time instead of copy and pasting the response, I hand typed the response and hit "submit"...didn't post! I threw my hands up in complete exacerbation! Right after that, I posted a different response...it posted. Then again...it posted. I tried copy and pasting my response one more time...didn't post! It just wasn't supposed to happen I guess. Perhaps it was so good that Skeptic was not ready for such profound enlightenment, and divine intervention was required Sometimes I have found if the board doesn't like certain words in a link or formatting....which handtyping should have removed...it refuses a post.
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