The Nehor Posted March 18, 2016 Posted March 18, 2016 (edited) 4 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: LOL or perhaps you don't have a scientific theory or data to confirm your assumptions? No, I just remembered how difficult it is to win an argument with an idiot impervious to reason. So I am going swimming. Edited March 18, 2016 by The Nehor 1
TheSkepticChristian Posted March 18, 2016 Author Posted March 18, 2016 29 minutes ago, The Nehor said: No, I just remembered how difficult it is to win an argument with an idiot impervious to reason. So I am going swimming. Okay Mr. Intelligence, I am sure you didn't just sit there when you "presented numerous possible scenarios to explain the data" before looking at the evidence. Tell me, how do your scenarios not contradict the Paper I just presented? How do you know your scenarios are even plausible? by wishful thinking?
TheSkepticChristian Posted March 19, 2016 Author Posted March 19, 2016 6 hours ago, pogi said: I am trying to figure out exactly what your theory is. All I am saying is that the forbidden fruit mostly affects the religious (not the very religious with a strong testimony). Strong anti-porn words like "disease" can backfire because it makes porn more attractive. It temps more. It looks more fun to someone who doesn't have a strong testimony. It is clear porn affects the religious, but not the atheists . http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/if-porn-addiction-isnt-real-why-do-very-religious-people-think-theyre-hooked
Guest Posted March 19, 2016 Posted March 19, 2016 Pornography is indeed a health crises, and is the cause for such pain and misery. I have so many friends in the Church whose family breakups began with husbands and fathers viewing and becoming addicted to pron. Sadly a number of men (some I knew and others in our Stake) that we had to hold displinary councils. It is not a victimless crime, it leads to broken homes and broken marriages. One can only hope that there is an additional circle of hell, one where those who produce it are haunted with the cries of mothers and children forever!
Popular Post pogi Posted March 19, 2016 Popular Post Posted March 19, 2016 (edited) 16 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: All I am saying is that the forbidden fruit mostly affects the religious (not the very religious with a strong testimony). That is demonstrably false and I have already shown that. You keep repeating this with no rebuttal to my evidence. You would need to establish a broad correlation (meaning a correlation with sex, drugs, alcohol, coffee, smoking, and every other "forbidden fruit") before such an assumption could be considered. A correlation (and that's all it is) with only one variable, is not enough to establish such a broad theory. In fact, the article you link to contradicts your theory. The study in this article clearly states that only the "very religious" are more likely to self-identity as addicts. Remember when you said: Quote Of course it helps the very very religious, but it probably makes it worst for those church members who don't have a strong testimony. Are you going to back track now? 16 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Strong anti-porn words like "disease" can backfire because it makes porn more attractive. It temps more. It looks more fun to someone who doesn't have a strong testimony. Ah yes, the irresistable allure and appeal of disease! And disease is "fun" to boot! Who doesn't find STDs and addiction "fun" and "attractive"? Give me a break! 16 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: It is clear porn affects the religious, but not the atheists . http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/if-porn-addiction-isnt-real-why-do-very-religious-people-think-theyre-hooked This article is a joke. The only finding was this - "people who consider themselves to be very religious have a much higher chance of self-identifying as addicted to internet porn." Geez, I wonder why? Perhaps because they are the only ones who have ever tried to stop? If non-religious and highly religious people alike, both made the same effort to quit porn forever, I guarantee that the rates of self-identified addicts would be equal. I have talked to non-religious friends about their porn viewing (I am very open about my recovery), they all say they could stop if they wanted. I asked them if they have ever tried. The answer is always the same - "no, but I could". So, why would someone who doesn't realize that he can't stop "self-identify" as an addict? He wouldn't. I wouldn't have self-identified as an addict until I really tried to stop. I told myself that it wasn't harming me or anybody else. Addicts like to remain in denial to sustain their addiction. I didn't realize the damage it has caused in my life until I got real and honest with myself. It took me 10 years before I found any real recovery and sobriety. If it wasn't for the church, I would still be a full-fledged addict in complete denial of any damage, and would still be saying that I could stop whenever I want. Edited March 19, 2016 by pogi 6
TheSkepticChristian Posted March 19, 2016 Author Posted March 19, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, pogi said: That is demonstrably false and I have already shown that. Porn causes more fire to religious people, more fun, more curiosity, that is why religious people see it for a longer period of time. Regardless of the interpretation or explanation, it is clear that religious states watch more online porn. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25277691 2 hours ago, pogi said: The study in this article clearly states that only the "very religious" are more likely to self-identity as addicts. Remember when you said: Are you going to back track now? The problem with our conversation is that we are speaking in two different languages. The very religious (with a strong testimony) will simply avoid pornography if their church teaches them not to do it. It is the less religious that get into that. Trust me, I was in High School not long ago. I had friends that believed in God, but did watch a lot of porn, you think they had a strong testimony of their religion? You think the teenagers in Utah that don't have strong feelings about their church will avoid pornography? It did apply to alcohol and drugs too, teenagers get more attracted to that stuff because it is cool and illegal. Edited March 19, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
TheSkepticChristian Posted March 19, 2016 Author Posted March 19, 2016 2 hours ago, pogi said: So, why would someone who doesn't realize that he can't stop "self-identify" as an addict? He wouldn't. I wouldn't have self-identified as an addict until I really tried to stop. because it is not an addiction. I can say that I am addicted to the MDDB, and I can stop that when ever I want to. A lot of people say they are addicted to something when they are really not.
why me Posted March 19, 2016 Posted March 19, 2016 58 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: because it is not an addiction. I can say that I am addicted to the MDDB, and I can stop that when ever I want to. A lot of people say they are addicted to something when they are really not. Porn is addictive to many people. It is not just the church that says this. But also experts. There is no question about it. However, not all become addicted to porn who watch it. Many years ago, back in the seventies I had a friend who was addicted to porn. He would go to the porn theatre every day or see a strip show. Once over dinner this friend said: When porn gets into your blood it is difficult to get rid of. And he was right. Pornographers are very creative and smart people. They know how to rope someone in by creating the fantasy inside the movie. And the women in porn can be extremely beautiful with their makeup, especially from east europe. Many men and women are addicted to porn, if one goes by the statistics of the leading porn site. 1
Atheist Mormon Posted March 19, 2016 Posted March 19, 2016 On 3/15/2016 at 3:01 PM, pogi said: Pornography addiction actually changes the physical and chemical makeup of the brain in a way similar to traumatic brain injury - Donald Hilton Jr. M.D. and neurosurgeon. Eric Nestler, Director of the Brain Institute and Chairman of Neuroscience at Mount Sinai School of Medicine published his findings that sexual addictions (pornography) affect the same neurochemial pathways in the same ways as drug addictions. Dr. Hilton shows studies of how pornography addiction actually causes more extensive brain atrophy (shrinkage) than drug addictions. "Withdrawl symptoms can be headache, irritability, restlessness, sleeplessness, anxiety... These classic symptoms of withdrawal can be relentless and can lead to addicted persons to relapse, with the brain drug fix bringing reliable relief. The despair and depression which follow, however, mean the relief is a temporary respite until the next episode. With each episode, the neurochemistry of addiction is engrained even more deeply." He goes on to state that because pornography is a much more powerful stimulant than natural sexuality in the sensitized brain, addicted husbands often prefer pornographic stimulation to marital sexuality. People who have been addicted to both drugs and sexual addictions claim that the pornography is harder to overcome by far. The above information is from Dr. Hilton's book He Restoreth My Soul Thanks for the link of Dr. Hilton's book.... Dr Hilton's personal view's are greatly influenced by his religious perspective on many instances they not at all compatible with medical ethics.....not to mention with facts. But I admit, it far cry from "The Miracle of Forgiveness".
Sleeper Cell Posted March 19, 2016 Posted March 19, 2016 4 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: Trust me, I was in High School not long ago. That explains a lot. 3
pogi Posted March 20, 2016 Posted March 20, 2016 Skeptic, you still are not seeing the evidence for what it is. You are looking at a single anomaly in a great body of evidence, which all supports the idea that teaching the difference between right and wrong works. Because the evidence you are looking at is an anomaly, I suggest that you consider the limitations and alternate explanations of such studies. If you want to raise your kids differently, feel free. I think we have all seen the results of such households where clear boundaries of right and wrong are not set. Good luck! 2
pogi Posted March 20, 2016 Posted March 20, 2016 21 hours ago, Atheist Mormon said: Thanks for the link of Dr. Hilton's book.... Dr Hilton's personal view's are greatly influenced by his religious perspective on many instances they not at all compatible with medical ethics.....not to mention with facts. But I admit, it far cry from "The Miracle of Forgiveness". Thanks for your opinion, but have you read the book and checked his sources? Obviously the religious portions of his book on the atonement are heavily influenced by his religious perspective, but the medical sections discussing the anatomical/physiological/psycho/social effects are all well documented and widely supported. 1
TheSkepticChristian Posted March 20, 2016 Author Posted March 20, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, pogi said: Skeptic, you still are not seeing the evidence for what it is. You are looking at a single anomaly in a great body of evidence, which all supports the idea that teaching the difference between right and wrong works. it works for devout Mormons, I am not disputing that. I am saying that it can backfire pretty badly for Mormons (including teens) never read the scriptures and are not very religious. I am not talking about Atheists,New Order Mormons, Naturalists, I am talking about Mormons that are not very spiritual. 3 hours ago, pogi said: If you want to raise your kids differently, feel free. I think we have all seen the results of such households where clear boundaries of right and wrong are not set. Good luck! Controlling children's diets is essential but be careful how you do it by Dr. Susan carnell https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/bad-appetite/200910/forbidden-fruit Edited March 20, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
pogi Posted March 20, 2016 Posted March 20, 2016 Teaching the difference between right and wrong only works for the very religious? Based on what evidence? Your recent high school experience? 1
Bernard Gui Posted March 20, 2016 Posted March 20, 2016 (edited) 57 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: it works for devout Mormons, I am not disputing that. I am saying that it can backfire pretty badly for Mormons (including teens) never read the scriptures and are not very religious. I am not talking about Atheists,New Order Mormons, Naturalists, I am talking about Mormons that are not very spiritual. Controlling children's diets is essential but be careful how you do it by Dr. Susan carnell https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/bad-appetite/200910/forbidden-fruit The addicts and families of addicts I have met in the addiction recovery program do not fit your "not-too-Mormon" stereotype. Granted, the addicts (who invariably were strong members, some with years of church service but also decades of hidden addiction) wouldn't be coming to a recovery program if they were not "too religious," and had not acknowledged their addiction, but the families and friends come because of the destruction it has brought to their lives.... and many times the addict is still in denial of the devastation that surrounds him or blames them for his problems. Regarding your theory about forbidden fruit, has the HIV/AIDS epidemic resulted in more or less risky behaviors among semi-active LDS youth? Edited March 20, 2016 by Bernard Gui 2
TheSkepticChristian Posted March 20, 2016 Author Posted March 20, 2016 (edited) 10 minutes ago, pogi said: Teaching the difference between right and wrong only works for the very religious? It depends, in the case of pornography it can backfire. Please read https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/bad-appetite/200910/forbidden-fruit Perhaps because no one gets in trouble when watching pornography, and no one else is watching Edited March 20, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian
Bernard Gui Posted March 20, 2016 Posted March 20, 2016 28 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said: It depends, in the case of pornography it can backfire. Please read https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/bad-appetite/200910/forbidden-fruit Perhaps because no one gets in trouble when watching pornography, and no one else is watching From your article... Quote Where does that leave parents regarding challenges like Halloween or Easter, when every child expects to be spoilt with sweets? Resistance is probably futile and may make matters worse to some degree. So it's probably best to be flexible and allow a little junk. But festivals are also a great opportunity to sneak in some nutrients and sew the seeds of a few new healthy preferences.... So, it would appear that it would be best to be flexible and allow the kids just a little porn... perhaps just one x-rated movie or a graphic website once now and then on special occasions like, maybe Valentine's Day. That way the kids won't pig out when they get the opportunity to indulge when they are no longer in the grips of their over-bearing up-tight parents. 1
Bernard Gui Posted March 20, 2016 Posted March 20, 2016 On March 19, 2016 at 0:41 PM, TheSkepticChristian said: because it is not an addiction. I can say that I am addicted to the MDDB, and I can stop that when ever I want to. A lot of people say they are addicted to something when they are really not. The difference between addiction and frequenting this discussion board is like the difference between a symphony orchestra and a kazoo. 2
TheSkepticChristian Posted March 20, 2016 Author Posted March 20, 2016 3 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: From your article... So, it would appear that it would be best to be flexible and allow the kids just a little porn... perhaps just one x-rated movie or a graphic website once now and then on special occasions like, maybe Valentine's Day. That way the kids won't pig out when they get the opportunity to indulge when they are no longer in the grips of their over-bearing up-tight parents. or perhaps not being so negative to the point of calling it a health crisis. People like to misbehave. My theory is that most individuals won't look at porn very often when religions stop making a big deal about that.
Atheist Mormon Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 5 hours ago, pogi said: Thanks for your opinion, but have you read the book and checked his sources? Not all of it but once you mix religious dogma in the book it will become a slippery slope for secular minded people.
TheSkepticChristian Posted March 21, 2016 Author Posted March 21, 2016 3 minutes ago, Atheist Mormon said: Not all of it but once you mix religious dogma in the book it will become a slippery slope for secular minded people. Religion can't possibly affect a researcher, just ask Dr. Jason Lisle and his books.
Kenngo1969 Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 5 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: ... My theory is that most individuals won't look at porn very often when religions stop making a big deal about that. And my theory is that you are a leprechaun!
Bernard Gui Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 5 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said: or perhaps not being so negative to the point of calling it a health crisis. People like to misbehave. My theory is that most individuals won't look at porn very often when religions stop making a big deal about that. Addicts cannot control their use of addictive substances or behaviors. That's why they are addicted. That's why it is a health crisis. I have yet to meet a recovering addict who liked their "misbehavior" after it turned into addiction. Seriously... I cannot fathom why you so adamantly deny the obvious. No one wins with pornography. Everyone involved loses.
TheSkepticChristian Posted March 21, 2016 Author Posted March 21, 2016 18 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: Addicts cannot control their use of addictive substances or behaviors. That's why they are addicted. That's why it is a health crisis. I have yet to meet a recovering addict who liked their "misbehavior" after it turned into addiction I was defining addiction as simply spending a lot of time. Your definition of porn addiction probably doesn't exists. I don't know anyone who truly wishes to stop watching porn, but can't. Read Paper, http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301051115300107. Even if porn addiction is real, it would obviously be extremely rare. 58 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said: And my theory is that you are a leprechaun! Well, at least I presented data that is consistent with my theory. Where is your data? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25277691
Recommended Posts