Additions to the Gospel = Subtractions from Grace

[The Nehor]

51 minutes ago, Five Solas said:

Interesting choice of word, Nehor--"pretend."  If we're "justified" (made right with God) "by faith" as Paul wrote to the Galatians (2:16) - why would any believer ever feel a need to be a pretender, to be an actor--the very definition of an even stronger word, hypocrite? 

Maybe it was just a poor choice instead of a revealing one and I'm reading too much into it.  But I will add it resonates strongly with my own experience when I was LDS.  Do all these things (and it's a *long* list) and you be blessed, you'll "get your heart right" by disciplining yourself, and you'll be authentic.  Except it didn't work, especially that last bit.  Come to think of it--they never actually promised that, did they?

;0)

--Erik 

 

Pretending gets a bad rap. Pretending is only hypocrisy if it is meant that way. Is a child trying to emulate his father a hypocrite? Shouldn't he just be true to his childish nature forever? There are two kinds of pretending. One is deceitful where you pretend to be good for social approval or pretend you want to help to trick someone. The other is childlike. It is recognizing that you are not what you should be and wanting to be better. It is Pinocchio trying to be a real boy, the Beast trying to become human again, and Paul after his encounter with the Savior. A realization that you have gone wrong combined with an attempt to be something you are not.

Nice smear attempt though. If you are an example of the Evangelical new heart attempting to discredit with idiotic semantics I think I will pass. See, I can be puerile and condescending too.

[Okrahomer]

31 minutes ago, halconero said:

Speak for yourself, the grace of Christ has deepened my discipline, righted my heart, and made me more authentic via the promises and covenants which he extends to me.

Also, you keep using that word "faith," yet belief and faith in the Greco-Roman linguistic and cultural context is a much deeper, actionable, accountable, and covenantal experience than you would have us believe.

Indeed!  The good news is that (notwithstanding Five Sola's view) some of evangelicalism's greatest teachers share that view:

"The spiritual disciplines are the practical ways whereby we obey the command of 1 Timothy 4:7: “discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness.” The goal of every spiritual discipline is — as this verse teaches — godliness. Godliness is another way of describing holiness, sanctification, and Christlikeness. To put it in other terms, the purpose of the spiritual disciplines is intimacy with Christ and conformity (both internal and external) to Christ."  (see http://www.desiringgod.org/messages/pursuing-a-passion-for-god-through-spiritual-disciplines-learning-from-jonathan-edwards)

Edited March 15, 2016 by Okrahomer
to clarify meaning.

[halconero]

42 minutes ago, Okrahomer said:

Indeed!  The good news is that (notwithstanding Five Sola's view) some of evangelicalism's greatest teachers share that view:

"The spiritual disciplines are the practical ways whereby we obey the command of 1 Timothy 4:7: “discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness.” The goal of every spiritual discipline is — as this verse teaches — godliness. Godliness is another way of describing holiness, sanctification, and Christlikeness. To put it in other terms, the purpose of the spiritual disciplines is intimacy with Christ and conformity (both internal and external) to Christ."  (see http://www.desiringgod.org/messages/pursuing-a-passion-for-god-through-spiritual-disciplines-learning-from-jonathan-edwards)

Which I believe is an enriching and beautiful perspective that I can agree with.

Latter-day Saints themselves have been guilty of disagreeing with the Doctrine of Sola Fide to the point of disparaging the Grace of God. We share and confuse words such as salvation, exaltation, works, and faith. The debate needs to shift from faith vs. works to this summary of the argument shamelessly stolen from wikipedia's article on the New Perspective:

"New-perspective scholars often respond that their views are not so different. For in the perspective of Luther and Calvin, God graciously empowers the individual to the faith which leads to salvation and also to good works, while in the "new" perspective God graciously empowers individuals to the faith and good works, which lead to salvation."

I of course hold to the later, that good works are part of the covenantal relationship between the Divine Patron of the Believing Client, in the tradition of 2nd Temple Judaism from which Paul's Christology evolved and was revealed. The important part of understanding this relationship and the divine favour, or grace, bestowed on the believer is that good works, though necessary for the believer's salvation, are credited to God. His grace through his Son is the enabling and uplifting power, and the believers acts are a means of meeting grace with grace. King Benjamin's discourse on being unworthy servants is an excellent framework for explaining how we are at once unprofitable servants, saved by grace though we are undeserving, yet engaged in works as a necessary part of the covenant relationship.

[jcake]

  I don't think you can get grace more than is described in the Doctrine and Covenants Section 45.  This  scenario is that of a true believer and follower of Jesus. at the time of their judgement.  Their works, of course, don't save them.  Jesus comes and takes their place at the judgement seat.  They are saved by his merits, not their own.  This is how it will be, we can be judged on the merits of our Savior, who will plea for us, advocate for us, and be our redeemer.

3 Listen to him who is the advocate with the Father, who is pleading your cause before him—

 4 Saying: Father, behold the sufferings and death of him who did no sin, in whom thou wast well pleased; behold the blood of thy Son which was shed, the blood of him whom thou gavest that thyself might be glorified;

 5 Wherefore, Father, spare these my brethren that believe on my name, that they may come unto me and have everlasting life.

[The Nehor]

15 hours ago, jcake said:

  I don't think you can get grace more than is described in the Doctrine and Covenants Section 45.  This  scenario is that of a true believer and follower of Jesus. at the time of their judgement.  Their works, of course, don't save them.  Jesus comes and takes their place at the judgement seat.  They are saved by his merits, not their own.  This is how it will be, we can be judged on the merits of our Savior, who will plea for us, advocate for us, and be our redeemer.

3 Listen to him who is the advocate with the Father, who is pleading your cause before him—

 4 Saying: Father, behold the sufferings and death of him who did no sin, in whom thou wast well pleased; behold the blood of thy Son which was shed, the blood of him whom thou gavest that thyself might be glorified;

 5 Wherefore, Father, spare these my brethren that believe on my name, that they may come unto me and have everlasting life.

[Five Solas]

On 3/15/2016 at 8:45 AM, The Nehor said:

Pretending gets a bad rap. Pretending is only hypocrisy if it is meant that way. Is a child trying to emulate his father a hypocrite? Shouldn't he just be true to his childish nature forever? There are two kinds of pretending. One is deceitful where you pretend to be good for social approval or pretend you want to help to trick someone. The other is childlike. It is recognizing that you are not what you should be and wanting to be better. It is Pinocchio trying to be a real boy, the Beast trying to become human again, and Paul after his encounter with the Savior. A realization that you have gone wrong combined with an attempt to be something you are not.

Nice smear attempt though. If you are an example of the Evangelical new heart attempting to discredit with idiotic semantics I think I will pass. See, I can be puerile and condescending too.

Interesting choice to double-down on your use of "pretend" in describing your religious activities, Nehor.  But rather than proclaim your victimhood of a "smear" and "idiotic semantics"--how about you actually provide an answer to my previous question?  I'd appreciate it.  Perhaps other readers would too. 

*Why* does a believer need to pretend anything at all, be it in a "childlike" fashion or otherwise?  Where has God (as revealed in the Bible) ever asked anyone to pretend anything?  Try doing a word search in the Bible translation of your choice and you may begin to see the problem: Every instance men practicing deception.  Fake-it-till-you-make-it might bear some analogy for children playing house who may one day pay a mortgage (or your example of Pinocchio)--but it appears to be the antithesis of Paul's message to the Galatians (and I would submit all of Scripture). 

Kindly explain yourself and/or show me I'm wrong. 

--Erik     

[Five Solas]

On 3/15/2016 at 8:22 AM, bluebell said:

Sorry, i'm really not sure what your point is.  Especially the last bolded question. My answer to the question is not 'no', and i have no idea why you would think it would be.

The full Hinckley quote mentioned in the OP is "Let me say that we appreciate the truth in all churches and the good which they do. We say to the people, in effect, you bring with you all the good that you have, and then let us see if we can add to it. That is the spirit of this work. That is the essence of our missionary service."

Can you explain again exactly what is evil about the thoughts expressed in the quote?  

... 

Hey bluebell--

First off, I didn't allege "evil"--I merely offered a comparison (and I'm prepared to concede it may have been a bad one).  So no, I can't "explain again" what I never said in the first place. 

;0)

Regarding the quote, it appears he made a number of related statements.  You can find mine verbatim with Google's help.  Perhaps one day one of them will be declared canonical and the rest dismissed as rogue, like versions of the "First Vision"--and perhaps it will be the one you quoted... 

...yes, that was a bit of humor, please forgive if it offends.   

I'll drop my ask that you give an example of Hinckley's words put into effect.  I can tell that just isn't going to happen. 

But you liked the song, right? 

:0)

--Erik

 

[Steve Noel]

Five Solas,

You quoted from President Hinckley but did provide a reference. Can you provide a reference so that President Hinckley can be read in context? 

I recently taught verse by verse through Galatians in Sunday school. The gospel of justification through faith alone is heavily emphasized in Galatians. Your brief summation is an accurate description of the epistle. Several years ago I opened my home to the LDS missionaries to listen to their teachings. That 1st week I invited them to look at Philippians 3:8-9 with me. That text reads:

"Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith" (italics mine).

I talked with them a while about righteousness. Paul is sharing his conversion here. He tells the Philippians that he had abandoned his attempts at being righteous before God through obeying God's commandments. His righteousness was not a product of his good works. Instead, he writes that he received a righteousness from God through faith in Christ. This is the gospel. This is what Paul teaches the Galatians. A person is justified (counted righteous) through faith, not by works. This righteousness is a gift of God given to all who believe. Those who were preaching that the Galatians had to produce righteousness through observing the Law were preaching a different gospel, a gospel that does not save. When the missionaries returned the following week one of them told me he had been studying this text in Philippians and he agreed that Paul was teaching that his righteousness came from God as a gift and was not the product of his human effort.
 

[Five Solas]

21 minutes ago, Steve Noel said:

Five Solas,

You quoted from President Hinckley but did provide a reference. Can you provide a reference so that President Hinckley can be read in context? 

I recently taught verse by verse through Galatians in Sunday school. The gospel of justification through faith alone is heavily emphasized in Galatians. Your brief summation is an accurate description of the epistle. Several years ago I opened my home to the LDS missionaries to listen to their teachings. That 1st week I invited them to look at Philippians 3:8-9 with me. That text reads:

"Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith" (italics mine).

I talked with them a while about righteousness. Paul is sharing his conversion here. He tells the Philippians that he had abandoned his attempts at being righteous before God through obeying God's commandments. His righteousness was not a product of his good works. Instead, he writes that he received a righteousness from God through faith in Christ. This is the gospel. This is what Paul teaches the Galatians. A person is justified (counted righteous) through faith, not by works. This righteousness is a gift of God given to all who believe. Those who were preaching that the Galatians had to produce righteousness through observing the Law were preaching a different gospel, a gospel that does not save. When the missionaries returned the following week one of them told me he had been studying this text in Philippians and he agreed that Paul was teaching that his righteousness came from God as a gift and was not the product of his human effort.
 

It's because I was lazy.  Here you go: https://www.lds.org/liahona/1997/06/words-of-the-living-prophet?lang=eng

Thanks for sharing, Steve

--Erik

PS.  If that site does something bad to your computer--I take no responsibility!

;0)

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Five Solas said:

Interesting choice to double-down on your use of "pretend" in describing your religious activities, Nehor.  But rather than proclaim your victimhood of a "smear" and "idiotic semantics"--how about you actually provide an answer to my previous question?  I'd appreciate it.  Perhaps other readers would too. 

*Why* does a believer need to pretend anything at all, be it in a "childlike" fashion or otherwise?  Where has God (as revealed in the Bible) ever asked anyone to pretend anything?  Try doing a word search in the Bible translation of your choice and you may begin to see the problem: Every instance men practicing deception.  Fake-it-till-you-make-it might bear some analogy for children playing house who may one day pay a mortgage (or your example of Pinocchio)--but it appears to be the antithesis of Paul's message to the Galatians (and I would submit all of Scripture). 

Kindly explain yourself and/or show me I'm wrong. 

--Erik     

Interesting especially as Paul encourages emulating him.

"Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ." - 1 Corinthians 11:1

The New Testament is stiffed full of telling us to emulate Christ. Unless you are already like Christ (we are not) this means figuring out what we would do if we were like him which is the kind of pretending I was advocating.

I am not sure if you are so ignorant of scripture you thought this was not there or were idiotically trying to win on semantic grounds. This is akin to an atheist arguing that the Old Testament does not advocate the Savior because the word Jesus is never used in there in reference to him and being a smug idiot about it.

 

[Five Solas]

13 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Interesting especially as Paul encourages emulating him.

"Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ." - 1 Corinthians 11:1

The New Testament is stiffed full of telling us to emulate Christ. Unless you are already like Christ (we are not) this means figuring out what we would do if we were like him which is the kind of pretending I was advocating.

I am not sure if you are so ignorant of scripture you thought this was not there or were idiotically trying to win on semantic grounds. This is akin to an atheist arguing that the Old Testament does not advocate the Savior because the word Jesus is never used in there in reference to him and being a smug idiot about it.

 

I'm genuinely curious what you think you accomplish with your language, Nehor.  Does insinuating my words/my person "smear" (previous), "ignorant," "idiotically," "smug idiot" serve some useful purpose for you on the thread?  Do you think it sticks--or is it just emotionally satisfying in the moment?  Seriously, I don't do it to you, why do you do it to me?

Regarding 1 Corinthians 11:1--here Paul admonishes his readers to imitate himself (the "me" is unambiguous).  He's *not* asking them to "pretend" (your repeated word choice in your last two posts) to be him, Christ, or anyone else.  By omitting that word choice in this, your latest post--do you mean for your readers to understand you now regret that choice and wish to walk it back? 

It's okay to be wrong and walk something back, Nehor.  I do it all the time! 

:0)

--Erik

[The Nehor]

48 minutes ago, Five Solas said:

I'm genuinely curious what you think you accomplish with your language, Nehor.  Does insinuating my words/my person "smear" (previous), "ignorant," "idiotically," "smug idiot" serve some useful purpose for you on the thread?  Do you think it sticks--or is it just emotionally satisfying in the moment?  Seriously, I don't do it to you, why do you do it to me?

I believe in the principle of Honesty.

48 minutes ago, Five Solas said:

Regarding 1 Corinthians 11:1--here Paul admonishes his readers to imitate himself (the "me" is unambiguous).  He's *not* asking them to "pretend" (your repeated word choice in your last two posts) to be him, Christ, or anyone else.  By omitting that word choice in this, your latest post--do you mean for your readers to understand you now regret that choice and wish to walk it back? 

Imitating someone is 'pretending' to attributes you do not have. If you did you would already be doing it. No, I do not wish to backtrack and your insinuation that I am is a feeble rhetorical game perpetuated by a feeble mind in a feeble way.

51 minutes ago, Five Solas said:

It's okay to be wrong and walk something back, Nehor.  I do it all the time! 

As wrong as you routinely are and as petulantly obstinate as you are I think you need to do it a lot more.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Five Solas said:

Regarding 1 Corinthians 11:1--here Paul admonishes his readers to imitate himself (the "me" is unambiguous).  He's *not* asking them to "pretend" (your repeated word choice in your last two posts) to be him, Christ, or anyone else.  By omitting that word choice in this, your latest post--do you mean for your readers to understand you now regret that choice and wish to walk it back? 

When you pretend to be someone, you imitate them. 

It seems like you are making a big deal out of a case of semantics.  When Nehor used the word pretend, he was implying imitation. Knowing that now, do you have any other objections to what he was trying to say?

 

Edited March 21, 2016 by bluebell

[Five Solas]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

When you pretend to be someone, you imitate them. 

It seems like you are making a big deal out of a case of semantics.  When Nehor used the word pretend, he was implying imitation. Knowing that now, do you have any other objections to what he was trying to say?

 

But the reverse isn't true (meaning you can imitate the behavior of someone without compromising your own identity, pretending to be someone else).  Clearly these words aren't synonyms.  And you also see, or have reason to see, why this matters greatly in the context of Paul's letter to the Galatians.  A Biblical admonition for believers to "pretend" would contradict & upend the whole thing. Yes, it's a big deal. 

[As a side note but closely related, the King James Version of 1 Thessalonians 5:22  contains the words, "abstain from all appearance of evil."  It's a translation error with a jarring theological implication--that God is concerned with appearance.  But God is not concerned with appearance (contemporary translations correct this mistake)--the God of the Bible is concerned with reality.  But if the KJV had it right & God was concerned about appearance--I think you could make a solid argument in favor of being a pretender.]

Out of curiosity, bluebell, why are you defending a fellow who is spewing unpleasantries on my thread ("ignorant," "idiot," etc.) and then justifying himself, claiming, "I believe in the principle of Honesty."  Shouldn't that trigger an instinct to run?  Was the song that bad?  

;0)

--Erik

 

Edited March 21, 2016 by Five Solas
spelling

[bluebell]

10 hours ago, Five Solas said:

But the reverse isn't true (meaning you can imitate the behavior of someone without compromising your own identity, pretending to be someone else).  Clearly these words aren't synonyms.  And you also see, or have reason to see, why this matters greatly in the context of Paul's letter to the Galatians.  A Biblical admonition for believers to "pretend" would contradict & upend the whole thing. Yes, it's a big deal. 

[As a side note but closely related, the King James Version of 1 Thessalonians 5:22  contains the words, "abstain from all appearance of evil."  It's a translation error with a jarring theological implication--that God is concerned with appearance.  But God is not concerned with appearance (contemporary translations correct this mistake)--the God of the Bible is concerned with reality.  But if the KJV had it right & God was concerned about appearance--I think you could make a solid argument in favor of being a pretender.]

Out of curiosity, bluebell, why are you defending a fellow who is spewing unpleasantries on my thread ("ignorant," "idiot," etc.) and then justifying himself, claiming, "I believe in the principle of Honesty."  Shouldn't that trigger an instinct to run?  Was the song that bad?  

;0)

--Erik

 

Actually, I looked it up and pretend is a synonym of imitate.

Synonyms of "imitate".

 

 

Edited March 21, 2016 by bluebell
To add a reference in a link

[bluebell]

10 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Out of curiosity, bluebell, why are you defending a fellow who is spewing unpleasantries on my thread ("ignorant," "idiot," etc.) and then justifying himself, claiming, "I believe in the principle of Honesty."  Shouldn't that trigger an instinct to run?  Was the song that bad?  

;0)

--Erik

 

Maybe you could point out what i said that was a defense of 'spewing unpleasantries' because i'm not sure what your referring to.

 

[flameburns623]

You might check out this fellow, John W. Draney.  I know zip/zero/nada about him or his biiks but he seemsxto be advocating a more geace-based interpretation of LDS traditiona than is often heard.

[Bernard Gui]

The Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith put this issue to rest once and for all. God is far more gracious and forgiving that any of us can imagine.

God gives light and knowledge to all nations and peoples according to their needs and capabilities.

Alma said,

Quote

For behold, the Lord doth grant unto all nations, of their own nation and tongue, to teach his word, yea, in wisdom, all that he seeth fit that they should have; therefore we see that the Lord doth counsel in wisdom, according to that which is just and true. Alma 29:8

Nephi noted: 

Quote

For my soul delighteth in plainness; for after this manner doth the Lord God work among the children of men. For the Lord God giveth light unto the understanding; for he speaketh unto men according to their language, unto their understanding. 2 Nephi 31:3

....which explains how

Quote

...he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile. 2 Nephi 26:33

...why 

Quote

 ...my soul delighteth in proving unto my people the truth of the coming of Christ; for, for this end hath the law of Moses been given; and all things which have been given of God from the beginning of the world, unto man, are the typifying of him. 2 Nephi 11:4

and that because of 

Quote

...God knowing all things, being from everlasting to everlasting, behold, he sent angels to minister unto the children of men, to make manifest concerning the coming of Christ; and in Christ there should come every good thing.

Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ.

And now, my brethren, how is it possible that ye can lay hold upon every good thing?

And now I come to that faith, of which I said I would speak; and I will tell you the way whereby ye may lay hold on every good thing.

And God also declared unto prophets, by his own mouth, that Christ should come.

And behold, there were divers ways that he did manifest things unto the children of men, which were good; and all things which are good cometh of Christ; otherwise men were fallen, and there could no good thing come unto them.

Wherefore, by the ministering of angels, and by every word which proceeded forth out of the mouth of God, men began to exercise faith in Christ; and thus by faith, they did lay hold upon every good thing; and thus it was until the coming of Christ.  

And after that he came men also were saved by faith in his name; and by faith, they become the sons of God. Moroni 7:19-26

 

And because of all his unlimited grace which is founded in his love, God is merciful to all. No person who does good will lose their reward....

Quote

Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness;

For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward. D&C 58:27-28

 

Otherwise, God would not be just.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Bernard Gui

[pogi]

On March 14, 2016 at 6:35 PM, Five Solas said:

I think you might be stretching Philippians 4:8 more than a little

I think you are too quick to dismiss the comparison of Philippians 4:8 with President Hinckley's comment.

If you don't believe that there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report, etc. outside of Christianity that is worthy of meditation, you are grossly mistaken.  The Golden Rule itself cannot be attributed to Christianity as the original author.  All people and cultures have pieces of truth and goodness.  Hinckley was simply saying, bring those pieces and we will make them whole.  

Edited March 21, 2016 by pogi

[Five Solas]

13 hours ago, bluebell said:

Maybe you could point out what i said that was a defense of 'spewing unpleasantries' because i'm not sure what your referring to.

 

Or maybe I couldn't. 

After this I'll throw in the towel, bluebell.  You have a seemingly unbreakable habit of responding to things you imagine I wrote, while ignoring the content I actually did take the time to compose in response to you.  Yes, I'm disappointed.       

In this, your latest:  Please realize I never wrote that you, bluebell, made a "defense of 'spewing unpleasantries'."   I wrote you made a defense of Nehor, and I questioned you--why? (unanswered).  Earlier, our readers may recall, you asked me to "explain again" what was "evil" about a quote by the late LDS president/prophet Gordon B. Hinckley.  But I never wrote or alleged any such thing.  The only place the word "evil" occurred--was in your head. 

Feel free to take the last word, against whatever you might imagine or wish mine to have been.

--Erik

 

[bluebell]

9 hours ago, Five Solas said:

Or maybe I couldn't. 

After this I'll throw in the towel, bluebell.  You have a seemingly unbreakable habit of responding to things you imagine I wrote, while ignoring the content I actually did take the time to compose in response to you.  Yes, I'm disappointed.       

In this, your latest:  Please realize I never wrote that you, bluebell, made a "defense of 'spewing unpleasantries'."   I wrote you made a defense of Nehor, and I questioned you--why? (unanswered).  Earlier, our readers may recall, you asked me to "explain again" what was "evil" about a quote by the late LDS president/prophet Gordon B. Hinckley.  But I never wrote or alleged any such thing.  The only place the word "evil" occurred--was in your head. 

Feel free to take the last word, against whatever you might imagine or wish mine to have been.

--Erik

 

In the OP you accused Hinckely of promulgating the idea that it is acceptable to add to the gospel, which you described as"negating the works of Christ". 

In your belief, is it possible for something to negate the work of Christ and not be evil?  Was I way out in left field to believe that's how you feel about something that negates Christ's work?

Beyond that issue, my defense of Nehor existed only in your head. I clarified a valid point he made that you weren't getting, nothing more.

 

 

Edited March 22, 2016 by bluebell
Typos