Why would any straight person want to be a member of the COJCOLDS?

[smac97]

6 minutes ago, ttribe said:

This is probably the most inappropriate post of this thread...and that's saying something.

I sort of see your point.  I'd prefer to speak about general principles rather than specific circumstances.  But Cal keeps discussing these matters through the lens of his personal life, which apparently compels him to divulge all sorts of details that perhaps would have been better kept private.  But if he chooses to publicize his personal life circumstances and details and choices, and if he chooses to do so on a public message board peopled by people who disagree with him in some rather important and fundamental ways, and if he chooses to do so in an adversarial context, then it hardly seems reasonable to expect a "hands-off" approach to what he is saying.

If CB does not want a critique of the personal choices he has made in his life, then he probably should not put them on display for commentary by people whom he knows disagree with him.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Scott Lloyd]

10 minutes ago, smac97 said:

So your position is . . . what?  That our options are A) trust the Brethren, but if and only if they are utterly infallible in each and every thing they say and do and teach, or B) utterly reject the Brethren and don't trust them at all regarding anything they say and do and teach?

That seems to be what you are saying.

Thanks,

-Smac

Alas, it's an all-too-common scenario.

[consiglieri]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

My nomination for post of the year. A veritable masterpiece of eloquence and timeliness.

Bravo, Smac!

The Devil can cite Scripture for his purpose.

[consiglieri]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

President Nelson already said that. What he was describing was not mere emotion.

 

He actually didn't describe anything.

President Nelson, like Gratiano, speaks an infinite deal of nothing.

Edited March 9, 2016 by consiglieri

[carbon dioxide]

On 3/7/2016 at 3:44 PM, california boy said:

With all due respect to Mystery Meat, I think he asked the wrong question.  Of course we know the answer the the question about gay members that most TBM will give.  "I never said it would be easy, I only said it would be worth it" or some variation of that.

If you want to have a real discussion about how much church membership is worth to you, Let's change the question.  Are you willing to give up your wife to be a member of the church?  Are you willing to give up your children to be a member of the church?  Now think about the implications, knowing that every night of the rest of your life you will be coming home to an empty apartment.  Think about not having your kids around for Christmas, and other holidays or a single day of your life.  Think about the real possibility of spending those holidays alone, in your room.  Think about not ever even dating anyone.  Think about NEVER even hoping that at some point you may find an eternal companion on earth and live the life that every fiber in your soul tells you that you want to live.

For me the answer is yes and for very simple reasons.  I am 46 years old.  Which means odds are I have about 40-50 years left on my life at best.  I have one the downhill slope of my life.  So if it becomes a choice of God and the Church over the family clearly the best decision is to take God and the Church.  Yes having family is wonderful but what will it gain me when I die if I have forsaken God?  My family is lost to me.  I am lost to them.  I face the real issue of spending hundreds of billions of earth years time away from them.  I guess its a variation of the saying of what does it profit a man to gain the world but lose his soul?  What does a person profit a man by choosing his family over God for mortality but lose his soul for the eternities?  I suppose for younger folk they might side with the family more because they think they have a lot of time left to live.  As people get older, they become more aware of their mortality and how short life is and choosing family over God does not make one well positioned when the grim reaper comes calling.

Edited March 9, 2016 by carbon dioxide

[consiglieri]

3 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

 So if it becomes a choice of God and the Church over the family clearly the best decision is to take God and the Church. 

But we're not a cult.

[ttribe]

32 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I sort of see your point.  I'd prefer to speak about general principles rather than specific circumstances.  But Cal keeps discussing these matters through the lens of his personal life, which apparently compels him to divulge all sorts of details that perhaps would have been better kept private.  But if he chooses to publicize his personal life circumstances and details and choices, and if he chooses to do so on a public message board peopled by people who disagree with him in some rather important and fundamental ways, and if he chooses to do so in an adversarial context, then it hardly seems reasonable to expect a "hands-off" approach to what he is saying.

If CB does not want a critique of the personal choices he has made in his life, then he probably should not put them on display for commentary by people whom he knows disagree with him.

Thanks,

-Smac

Well, CB's discussion of his personal circumstances aside, it is (IMO) still grossly inappropriate for Ahab to: 1) suggest CB "became" gay by some choice or set of choices; 2) that his ability to have children with a woman is prima facia evidence of his past heterosexuality; 3) speculate about the "happiness" of his marriage to a woman; and 4), suggest that CB's current situation is because his mind is "fogged" over.

Edited March 10, 2016 by ttribe

[USU78]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

Fool me once, shame on them.  Fool me twice, shame on me. I just hope that other members don't have to find out in the same painful way that I found out that church leaders claim of knowing God's will can not be trusted.

So why do you care to evangelize for your new faith here?

[USU78]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

I wish I was born straight

So  ...  is it your position that homosexuality is a malady?

[california boy]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Yet despite that "amazing peace," your posts are often full of bitterness and anger and vitriol against the LDS Church and its leaders and doctrines.  And you post these in a forum peopled by active, observant Latter-day Saints, knowing full well they will defend their beliefs against your criticisms of them.  

That's a strange sort of "peace."  But despite our disagreements, I really do wish you well.

Thanks,

-Smac

Where is the anger and bitterness?  Reporting the truth of how church leaders make claims that are not true is not bitter,nor is it anger

I may be passionate, but not bitter or angry.  Do you feel you are angry or bitter towards gay couples that marry?  

Edited March 10, 2016 by california boy

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Russell C McGregor said:

I don't have any reason to believe that they can't.

 

Well you probably weren't told that if you just marry you will become straight.  Wrong.  You probably aren't black and were told God doesn't want you to marry in the temple because of your skin color or curse or whatever the problem was.  Wrong again

Nice to be white male.  Life is good.

[california boy]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

So your position is . . . what?  That our options are A) trust the Brethren, but if and only if they are utterly infallible in each and every thing they say and do and teach, or B) utterly reject the Brethren and don't trust them at all regarding anything they say and do and teach?

That seems to be what you are saying.

Thanks,

-Smac

How about trusting in God and not believing church leaders know the will of God just because of who they are.  Don't use statements by church leaders as proof that something is true or the word of God.  It is not proof.  It may be their thinking.  But it is not necessarily the will of God.

That would be a fair approach don't cha think?

[california boy]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I sort of see your point.  I'd prefer to speak about general principles rather than specific circumstances.  But Cal keeps discussing these matters through the lens of his personal life, which apparently compels him to divulge all sorts of details that perhaps would have been better kept private.  But if he chooses to publicize his personal life circumstances and details and choices, and if he chooses to do so on a public message board peopled by people who disagree with him in some rather important and fundamental ways, and if he chooses to do so in an adversarial context, then it hardly seems reasonable to expect a "hands-off" approach to what he is saying.

If CB does not want a critique of the personal choices he has made in his life, then he probably should not put them on display for commentary by people whom he knows disagree with him.

Thanks,

-Smac

I certainly don't mind commenting on what I have said or what I have experienced.  I also think it is fair game.  However, Ahab's post is NOTHING more than speculation and conjecture about my life.  I have posted three or four posts correcting him on exactly how I have felt.  He has ignored ALL of them and continues to insist in knowing when I became straight, when I decided to be gay, how I interacted with my wife, whether I have a clear memory of my 25 years of marriage and whether I am attracted to women today.  This is someone reading tea leaves of what I have written.  HE IS WAY OFF BASE, WRONG AND YES IT IS INAPPROPRIATE.  He is not talking about what I have posted.  He is popping up his own batch of popcorn and calling it mine.

[california boy]

1 hour ago, carbon dioxide said:

For me the answer is yes and for very simple reasons.  I am 46 years old.  Which means odds are I have about 40-50 years left on my life at best.  I have one the downhill slope of my life.  So if it becomes a choice of God and the Church over the family clearly the best decision is to take God and the Church.  Yes having family is wonderful but what will it gain me when I die if I have forsaken God?  My family is lost to me.  I am lost to them.  I face the real issue of spending hundreds of billions of earth years time away from them.  I guess its a variation of the saying of what does it profit a man to gain the world but lose his soul?  What does a person profit a man by choosing his family over God for mortality but lose his soul for the eternities?  I suppose for younger folk they might side with the family more because they think they have a lot of time left to live.  As people get older, they become more aware of their mortality and how short life is and choosing family over God does not make one well positioned when the grim reaper comes calling.

Good for you.  I honor your ccmmitment.  I think you are only about the third or fourth person to make that choice.  Anyone who is willing to give up their family and children, not only on earth but for all eternity probably does exaltation.  You will just have to find someone else other than your loved one to share it with.

[UtahTexan]

37 minutes ago, california boy said:

Where is the anger and bitterness?  Reporting the truth of how church leaders make claims that are not true is not bitter,nor is it anger

I may be passionate, but not bitter or angry.  Do you feel you are angry or bitter towards gay couples that marry?  

First, what the leaders have said IS true  Second...if you think they lie..and if you are at such amazing peace.....why come here to start this kind of thread?  Frankly, your actions scream of someone who is not at peace and very unhappy at what he is

[california boy]

41 minutes ago, USU78 said:

So why do you care to evangelize for your new faith here?

To give a different point of view.  I am curious by nature.  I like hearing peoples opinions, especially if they are different than mine.  I like truth.  Not because someone told you something was true, but because it is true.  Sometimes truth can not be found.  As I have written many times on this thread, I don't know what the will of God is about gay marriage.  

I haven't talked a lot about what lead me to not trust church leaders before.  But there are very solid reasons to not assume church leaders know any more than I do.  They have been wrong too many times on what God's will on marriage is.  In fact this is an issue that the have gotten wrong every time.  Is polygamy necessary for exaltation as church leaders once taught?  Should blacks be barred from marrying in the temple as church leaders once taught?  Does a gay person become straight if they just marry someone of the opposite sex?   OOOPS. Well now we got it right.  Gay couples are apostates and their children can not be baptized until they turn 18.  That is now the will of God, also by revelation....  

[CV75]

4 minutes ago, california boy said:

To give a different point of view.  I am curious by nature.  I like hearing peoples opinions, especially if they are different than mine.  I like truth.  Not because someone told you something was true, but because it is true.  Sometimes truth can not be found.  As I have written many times on this thread, I don't know what the will of God is about gay marriage.  

I haven't talked a lot about what lead me to not trust church leaders before.  But there are very solid reasons to not assume church leaders know any more than I do.  They have been wrong too many times on what God's will on marriage is.  In fact this is an issue that the have gotten wrong every time.  Is polygamy necessary for exaltation as church leaders once taught?  Should blacks be barred from marrying in the temple as church leaders once taught?  Does a gay person become straight if they just marry someone of the opposite sex?   OOOPS. Well now we got it right.  Gay couples are apostates and their children can not be baptized until they turn 18.  That is now the will of God, also by revelation....  

The old “They Were Wrong Before; They Could Be Wrong Again” doctrine is too weak to work as a valid justification for opposing current Church practices.

If a saint thinks past leaders were wrong or mistaken or amiss, he will forgive and bask in the greater light and knowledge we have today. If he thinks they are wrong now, or could be wrong “again,” he will trust that the Source of his enlightenment will ensure his involvement or views in His councils as the Restoration rolls forth. If he fears they could be wrong “again,” he draws upon his faith in the Lord and sustains His servants as He requires.

In this way, he is a happy man as the old ship Zion moves forward. "I Forgave [Trusted, Had Faith]  Before; I Will Forgive [Trust, Have Faith] Again." When we forgive others, we usually find out where we were wrong (and vice versa)!

[california boy]

53 minutes ago, USU78 said:

So  ...  is it your position that homosexuality is a malady?

No.  But that doesn't make life easy.  On the other hand, I have learned amazing things from being gay.  Isn't that why we are sent to this earth?  God tries those that he loves the most

[Russell C McGregor]

30 minutes ago, california boy said:

Well you probably weren't told that if you just marry you will become straight.

Call for references, please.

30 minutes ago, california boy said:

 Wrong.  You probably aren't black and were told God doesn't want you to marry in the temple because of your skin color or curse or whatever the problem was.

Another subject. (Convenient that a rational discussion of this matter takes more than a sound bite, isn't it?)

30 minutes ago, california boy said:

 Wrong again

Nice to be white male.  Life is good.

You are speaking from experience, I take it?

 

[Rain]

5 hours ago, Mystery Meat said:

This is easy. A man and a woman who get married and discover that one or both of them is sterile did not make a choice to be sterile (excepting, of course, couples who took preventative measures to eliminate the chance of pregnancy, in which case that is a choice and violation of divine commandment). A gay or lesbian couple who gets married, however made a choice to, in effect, be sterile. No two gay men or lesbian women will ever be able to conceive, procreate, multiply or replenish. Period.  

Putting a sterile couple in the same category as gay and lesbian couples would be like lumping a chain smoker with lung cancer in with someone who never smoked but still got lung cancer (10-20% of lung cancer deaths occur in people who never smoked). One made a choice that led directly to the disease, while the other simply had bad genetics. One abused a sacred gift from God and paid the price, one did not and still paid a price. One's choice was a sin, the other's was not. 

It is the same thing here. One actively chose not to multiply and replenish, the other did not. Even though neither of these couples will conceive, the man and woman maintained righteous desires.

 

 

39 minutes ago, california boy said:

Good for you.  I honor your ccmmitment.  I think you are only about the third or fourth person to make that choice.  Anyone who is willing to give up their family and children, not only on earth but for all eternity probably does exaltation.  You will just have to find someone else other than your loved one to share it with.

When I went over the consequences I never thought of finding someone else in the next life. The only thing I knew was that whatever happened, as long as I followed God, it would be ok. If I wasn't going to stay with the church I had no idea what I would believe or even that there would be an afterlife. 

It doesn't surprise me only a few people that would make that choice. It's not as if most people could thoroughly examine the consequences quickly and make it. I only got to that point because I realized that we basically asked this of everyone who gets baptized even though few think it out that far. And really most people don't need to because they have their own issues to deal with. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, ttribe said:

Well, CB's discussion of his personal circumstances aside, it is (IMO) still grossly inappropriate for Ahab to: 1) suggest CB "became" gay by some choice or set of choices; 2) that his ability to have children with a woman is prima facia evidence of his past heterosexuality; 3) speculate about the "happiness" of his marriage to a woman; and 4), suggest that CB's current situation is because his mind is "fogged" over.

I would agree.  This is essentially the same thing as a nonbeliever telling a believer what they really believe.  Even if someone is discussing their own beliefs, while disgreeing is certainly acceptable, insisting that how they define their belief isn't their actual belief is not only wrong, but nonsense, imo.

[ttribe]

1 hour ago, Russell C McGregor said:

Call for references, please.

Good grief, he's talking about his personal experiences with his local leaders.  Keep up or take a 5 minute break from your hyper-aggressive attack dog activities.  Either one would be greatly appreciated.

[Calm]

25 minutes ago, Rain said:

The only thing I knew was that whatever happened, as long as I followed God, it would be ok....

I can't say what I would choose until I actually make the choice.  It is all very well to imagine what it would be like, but in the moment what will we do when asked?  I believe the time will come when we will all be asked to give up all that we have and place ourselves in God's hands.  Some will do it in this life (like Rain), others the next.  I am hoping when it is my turn I will be willing to make the choice of trusting that God knows better than I do because I am mentally, though not emotionally, certain that is true.