Seminary Classes Now to include Apologetics

[cdowis]

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865648793/An-evening-with-a-General-Authority-Elder-Ballard.html?pg=2

[HappyJackWagon]

Could you give some context to your claim beyond simply linking to the report?

I listened to Ballard's entire talk and there is a lot of good stuff in there. Gone are the days when seminary/institute instructors brush aside questions, or imply they're not important, or rebut the question with personal testimony. They are to understand the issues. They are to be well prepared by knowing the essays "like the back of their hand" and they are to include the works of scholars.

This is a significant change to the philosophy of the past and is overall a very good shift.

[Mars]

"gone are the days"

i'm no quiet mouse in learning settings.  maybe i just got lucky, but every time i opened my big fat mouth in seminary and institute, my questions were never brushed aside.  some co-students went off on how i was subverting the direction of the class and that was less important than the teacher's direction, but no teacher, no matter how impudent i got, ever gave me that kind of treatment.  (on that note, when the other people in the class did make me feel like my question wasn't important or not germane, i would give them an earful.)  there were some instances where an 'i don't know' was acknowledged alongside a personal testimony.

i'm not convinced those days were ever really here.  your mileage may vary.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Mars

[Ginger Snaps]

It's my understanding that this is not a new thing.  The seminary teachers in my ward were learning to handle these types of questions at training sessions at least a couple of years ago.  

[Robert F. Smith]

Yes, this source deserves to be cited in full:

Marianne Holman Prescott, “An evening with a General Authority: Elder Ballard introduces new initiative for seminary students,” LDS Church News, Saturday, Feb. 27 2016, online at http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865648793/An-evening-with-a-General-Authority-Elder-Ballard.html?pg=1 ,

The broadcast itself can be seen at https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/watch/evening-with-a-general-authority/2016/02?lang=eng .

[HappyJackWagon]

21 minutes ago, Mars said:

"gone are the days"

i'm no quiet mouse in learning settings.  maybe i just got lucky, but every time i opened my big fat mouth in seminary and institute, my questions never brushed aside.  some co-students went off on how i was subverting the direction of the class and that was less important than the teacher's direction, but no teacher, no matter how impudent i got, ever gave me that kind of treatment.  (on that note, when the other people in the class did make me feel like my question wasn't important or not germane, i would give them an earful.)  there were some instances where an 'i don't know' was acknowledged alongside a personal testimony.

i'm not convinced those days were ever really here.  your mileage may vary.

So you're saying Elder Ballard was wrong? You can have that opinion but recognize that even the church seems to realize those days existed. I'll add that my personal experience also supports the idea that those days existed. I'd argue they still do and that this change will take time and be a challenge for many teachers and students.

 

[Mars]

6 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

So you're saying Elder Ballard was wrong? You can have that opinion but recognize that even the church seems to realize those days existed. I'll add that my personal experience also supports the idea that those days existed. I'd argue they still do and that this change will take time and be a challenge for many teachers and students.

 

yep.

as for the reminder to 'recognize that the even the church seems to ...'

that's why i said 'your mileage may vary'

Edited March 2, 2016 by Mars

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, Mars said:

yep.

Agree too.  May even start a faith crisis for a few.

[Mars]

isolated incidents of each of those things happening? 

yes.  i don't want to argue (no one should) that they NEVER happen.  or that it's impossible to see it happen.

on the other hand...  bumbling fools and willfully ignorant teachers and CES administrators? worldwide cultural momentum aided and encouraged by the church to suppress questioning?

no way.

somewhere in the middle?

probably.

as i said, i'm not someone who quiets down in questions.  my experience has been generally positive.  i would have to really rack my brains to come up with examples where teachers tried to squelch my questions.  "gone are the days" conjures up a far more widespread and commonly held experience than i'm disposed to believe happened.  it just doesn't strike me as plausible.

[Mars]

12 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Agree too.  May even start a faith crisis for a few.

you agree that those days were never here?  i don't understand.

[flameburns623]

This A. Paulie Jedix guy hangs out at some other places too. Sometimes he's Catholic, sometimes he's Evangelical, sometimes he's Mormon.

You sure you want a shady character like this around your kids?

[HappyJackWagon]

56 minutes ago, Mars said:

yep.

as for the reminder to 'recognize that the even the church seems to ...'

that's why i said 'your mileage may vary'

It seems odd to me that you would reject the church's position as well as conventional wisdom and numerous anecdotes about how hard questions have been avoided in the church. To each his/her own. Personal experience is important but it's not the only factor to consider.

[Mars]

3 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

It seems odd to me that you would reject the church's position as well as conventional wisdom and numerous anecdotes about how hard questions have been avoided in the church. To each his/her own. Personal experience is important but it's not the only factor to consider.

it seems odd to me you would say 'reject' when i would say 'disagree.'

i've gone out of my way to clarify that i think it CAN happen, and that it may have.  i even acknowledge exactly what you're trying to teach me - that personal experience only goes so far.  i said "this is my personal experience, other people may've had it different"

all that nuance and attempt to balance my personal experience against what other people have said is apparently useless to you.

you elect to set it up as 'mars rejects the church's position.'

rather than 'mars has had a personal experience that is contrary to what is being asserted as the majority of experiences and therefore questions whether not the "gone are the days" is a good way to frame the heretofore cultural approach to handling questions in the gospel.'

to each his/her own, indeed.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Mars

[Tacenda]

49 minutes ago, Mars said:

you agree that those days were never here?  i don't understand.

No, I thought you were saying that knowing some of these issues for the first time for these CES teachers might be a problem.  Nothing like reading something else into your posts.  

[Mars]

Just now, Tacenda said:

No, I thought you were saying that knowing some of these issues for the first time for these CES teachers might be a problem.  Nothing like reading something else into your posts.  

oh, it's no problem.

[The Nehor]

13 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

It seems odd to me that you would reject the church's position as well as conventional wisdom and numerous anecdotes about how hard questions have been avoided in the church. To each his/her own. Personal experience is important but it's not the only factor to consider.

Well, they were avoided by some and faced by some. The change now is that most will find said questions or meet people who have. I know in my seminary classes we discussed criticisms of the church. Some were interested and learned (I was probably not one of them) and others did not care much. I see it as an expansion of this with more organization behind it.

[cdowis]

Personal experience.

About five years ago I approached the Institute teacher in our area.  I wanted to speak with the students about recent recent ideas and discoveries in BOM geography.    The first words out of his mouth were, "Are you an "anti" antiMormon?"  I supposed he was talking about apologetics, and answered in the affirmative.

He was very nice but basically responded that the church leaders did not feel it was wise to get involved in such issues.  It was interesting since this was not really an apologetic issue, in my view. 

There you have it.  It was official.

Edited March 2, 2016 by cdowis

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, cdowis said:

Personal experience.

About five years ago I approached the Institute teacher in our area.  I wanted to speak with the students about recent recent ideas and discoveries in BOM geography.    The first words out of his mouth were, "Are you an "anti" antiMormon?"  I supposed he was talking about apologetics, and answered in the affirmative.

He was very nice but basically responded that the church leaders did not feel it was wise to get involved in such issues.  It was interesting since this was not really an apologetic issue, in my view. 

There you have it.  It was official.

I thought Book of Mormon geography was an internal struggle between scholars and quacks, all members of the Church.  

[Jeanne]

I am just mad at myself.  In seminary..(if it was early morning seminary it was called cemetary)  Who knows what my seminary teachers would have told me if I had just had the questions to ask!!  I loved my teachers..but other than do musical devotionals, I didn't get myself involved.  I want a do over.  I did take an adult seminary class in 2007.  Interesting..but I kept nodding my head and saying "yes" to everything.

I hope students/teachers will have open communication and together arrive to what brings them a perspective of truth.  This can work a lot of ways for or against the church but I feel any truthiness in the church's past is a good thing!

Edited March 3, 2016 by Jeanne

[cdowis]

Our ward had a "Can you fool the Bishopric" night, where the youth submitted questions to the bishopric.  It was a fun way to get to those "tough questions" that the youth have but may be afraid to ask.  When I asked if I could submit a question, I got a nasty look.

Edited March 3, 2016 by cdowis

[JLHPROF]

I think my favorite quote from Elder Ballard here was:

• It was only a generation ago that our young people’s access to information about our history, doctrine, and practices was basically limited to materials printed by the Church. Few students came in contact with alternative interpretations. Mostly our young people lived a sheltered life. Our curriculum at that time, though well-meaning, did not prepare students for today, a day when students have instant access to virtually everything about the church from every possible point of view.

Acknowledging that the average member (or in this case "young people/students") really were sheltered.  Now that IS a step in the right direction.
I also think it's a bit optimistic to presume that those days are past too.  I know plenty of members who never look beyond the scriptures and the manual.
This isn't necessarily bad, but they are actively by choice maintaining their sheltered lives, and I worry for them when they finally can't do that any more.
My aunt might one day no longer be able to refuse to see anything related to the Church not published by the Church themselves.

[JLHPROF]

3 hours ago, cdowis said:

Our ward had a "Can you fool the Bishopric" night, where the youth submitted questions to the bishopric.  It was a fun way to get to those "tough questions" that the youth have but may be afraid to ask.  When I asked if I could submit a question, I got a nasty look.

Oooh, I want to play too.
 

[ALarson]

4 hours ago, cdowis said:

Our ward had a "Can you fool the Bishopric" night, where the youth submitted questions to the bishopric.  It was a fun way to get to those "tough questions" that the youth have but may be afraid to ask.  When I asked if I could submit a question, I got a nasty look.

What an awesome idea!  I'm going to suggest to the Bishop that we do this.

Were there really any "tough questions"?  (I'm just curious where the youth really are as far as knowing about some of the more difficult issues, etc.)  Any examples?

[Bernard Gui]

Yes, but when all is said and done and all the tough questions are asked and answered, it still comes down to testimony and the witness of the Spirit.

[HappyJackWagon]

20 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Yes, but when all is said and done and all the tough questions are asked and answered, it still comes down to testimony and the witness of the Spirit.

Asked and answered? Nope. Don't think so.