MDalby Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 (edited) A team of archaeologists and scholars will be at an Oman site that is proposed to potentially be Nephi’s Bountiful on a dig to find answers to some critical questions about conditions there in 600 BC. http://ldsmag.com/major-announcement-omanis-grant-permission-to-dig-at-nephis-bountiful/ Edited February 12, 2016 by MDalby 2
Avatar4321 Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 interesting. will they find a steel bow or something?
Freedom Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 I saw this but am not sure of the value. If Lehi and his family were there for at most a few years, and if people have been living there for thousands of years, what hope do they have of finding anything relevant? It would be like someone going to disney world and hoping to find evidence that I visited there in 1992. 4
RevTestament Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 11 minutes ago, Freedom said: I saw this but am not sure of the value. If Lehi and his family were there for at most a few years, and if people have been living there for thousands of years, what hope do they have of finding anything relevant? It would be like someone going to disney world and hoping to find evidence that I visited there in 1992. I am afraid this is quite true. We already know that Muslims lived at Khor Kharfot for awhile. There is evidence of a small mosque there. Because of the small size of the place and its geographic limitations, however, it does not appear it has ever supported a large population. In modern times it has been quite deserted. But, on the outside chance that they might find something it is worth a poke around I think. I believe it to be one of the most definite spots we can locate from the Book of Mormon. However, after more than 2500 years of Wadi river floods, etc, I don't hold out a lot of hope. The wadi walls do have some caves however, and who knows what might turn up. If some Hebrew artifact turned up, it would be quite the find I think. MDalby - thanks for the info and the nice pic
Calm Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 Did you read the link? The claim is that there is a temple/sanctuary based on the same structure features as Solomon's as well as those in Mesoamerica. However, apparently Solomon's was typical of Canaanite structures (according to a friend I trust) and it might be that they were spread that far, so whether it is significant or not is yet to be determined even if they actually find one. Quote What was drawn was the outline of a sanctuary for worship with an architectural footprint and a layout that correlated directly with Solomon’s Temple. It appears in every way to be the remains of a Hebrew sanctuary. In that trip and the ones to follow to Khor Kharfot, Hauck carefully studied the specific site where this drawing had been made. He could see from the remains left behind that the structure, which had once been there, employed the sacred concepts in measurement and design that had been built into Solomon’s Temple. In fact, he found 14 correlations that lined up with not only Solomon’s Temple, but two temple sites where he had worked on site in Central America. (Meridian will feature an article tomorrow from Richard Hauck talking in detail about the sanctuary site.) As an archaeologist, Hauck found himself moving from thinking that Kharfot was a possible site for Nephi’s Bountiful, to believing it to be probable. Who but a prophet would have built a sanctuary for his family’s worship that so specifically incorporated all of the sacred concepts evident in Solomon’s Temple? The idea that only a prophet would build a sanctuary seems quite a stretch though. 1
longview Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 I am no archaeologist but I am hopeful they will locate the places where Nephi extracted minerals ("find ore to molten"), harvested wild honey, found "much fruit" (will they find seeds buried under centuries of dust pile up?), wood chips/shavings (from ship work), etc. Will they find remains of an alter? LDSmag mentioned something about a place of worship fashioned after the Temple of Solomon? Surprising considering that Nephi did not write about this sanctuary? Possibly Mormon left that out in his abridgment of the records.
Sevenbak Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 I think the best they could hope for would be the remains of an iron furnace, charcoal, burnt clay, slag etc. 1
stemelbow Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 (edited) That picture isn't making the idea that this was Bountiful seem credible. Any sort of digs and research can be helpful, in some sense, at least. But to find something to tell Nephi's story at a location (at best estimated by us) where they stayed briefly some 2600 years ago? Seems unlikely. Edited February 12, 2016 by stemelbow
RevTestament Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 8 hours ago, longview said: I am no archaeologist but I am hopeful they will locate the places where Nephi extracted minerals ("find ore to molten"), harvested wild honey, found "much fruit" (will they find seeds buried under centuries of dust pile up?), wood chips/shavings (from ship work), etc. Will they find remains of an alter? LDSmag mentioned something about a place of worship fashioned after the Temple of Solomon? Surprising considering that Nephi did not write about this sanctuary? Possibly Mormon left that out in his abridgment of the records. see this link, first article: www.wmenews.com/newsletters/1366812925wmenews_V6_I4_eng.pdf - written by the guy who first proposed the place as Bountiful Khar Kharfot is already known to have all these things, which is why it is on the top of the list for Bountiful. There are wild fig trees and date palms for fruit, wild honey during the summer from bees, and iron ore basically just lying around in the bottom of the Wadi Sayq. It also has cliffs right at the sea which meet the description of Nephi being threatened with being thrown into the depths of the sea. There are small game, birds, plentiful fish, and even sea turtles which come to lay eggs on the beach. However, my personal belief about a "sanctuary" is that is a bit exaggerated. Plus, I don't know of any temples in Central America which meet the specs of Solomon's temple - I personally believe that is exaggerated too, but I don't know a lot about the Olmec civilization. Khor Kharfot is in the right place, is geographically isolated because of the steep valley walls, so was probably not otherwise populated at the time, has a lot of food for a small group, and basically meets all the criterion to be Bountiful. For bedouins traveling through Arabia, the place certainly would be bountiful. It gets summer rains because it is on the edge of an area where the ocean current travels up from the equator along the coast of Africa. So there the summer is actually the rainy season, and even the valley sides turn green with lush vegetation. 1
ksfisher Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 23 minutes ago, stemelbow said: That picture isn't making the idea that this was Bountiful seem credible. Any sort of digs and research can be helpful, in some sense, at least. But to find something to tell Nephi's story at a location (at best estimated by us) where they stayed briefly some 2600 years ago? Seems unlikely. What about the picture do you not find credible.
stemelbow Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 1 minute ago, ksfisher said: What about the picture do you not find credible. I find the picture credible. I'm just saying the picture doesn't depict much--particularly as it relates to the description of Bountiful and I remember it. Since I've went to the article and read. I'm not sure there's a lot there to conclude much. But, hey, anything's possible.
ksfisher Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 (edited) 6 minutes ago, stemelbow said: I find the picture credible. I'm just saying the picture doesn't depict much--particularly as it relates to the description of Bountiful and I remember it. Since I've went to the article and read. I'm not sure there's a lot there to conclude much. But, hey, anything's possible. I phrased that wrong, didn't I. I wonder if the scene wouldn't appear more "bountiful" if we hadn't just spent eight years in the desert. I also wonder if the area has a rainy and dry season or if the area has dried out to any degree in the last couple thousand years. Edited February 12, 2016 by ksfisher
stemelbow Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 Just now, ksfisher said: I phrased that wrong, didn't I. I wonder if the scene wouldn't appear more "bountiful" if we hadn't just spent eight years in the desert. Good point, something I didn't consider.
thesometimesaint Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 Barring finding "Nephi slept here" I too don't see it as confirming the Lehite story. But it does lend credibility of them existing.
longview Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 10 hours ago, Calm said: Mormon didn't abridge that part. Can you expand on that?
longview Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 1 hour ago, ksfisher said: I wonder if the scene wouldn't appear more "bountiful" if we hadn't just spent eight years in the desert. From the article: "Khor Kharfot. Its name encapsulates its two main features: the Arabic Khor refers to a sea inlet; while Kharfot is an expression in the pre-Arabic Mahri tongue, meaning that “abundance” 3
Johnnie Cake Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 (edited) I find this an exciting development and one of the most promising opportunities to find evidence of Lehi's party. I've made a list of the industries that Nephi would have needed, so surely evidence in any one of these areas could be found. Industries needed for Nephi and company to make a Transocean Ship Smelting Ovens /Blast Furness 01. Charcoal Ovens to make charcoal for fire to make blast Furness since there was no coal for making coke. 02. Acres of forests to get the wood needed to make the charcoal for blast furnace and wood for the ship 03. Thousands of Nails, metal strapping, hand tools ie hammers, all’s, saws etc Question: Where did he get tools to access Iron Ore in the first place? Dry Dock 01. Excavation of earth below water line 02. Gates that hold water back 03. Pumps to keep water out Tanning 01. Skins needed for bellows Make a Keel Capable of surviving an Oceanic voyage 01. Forest with trees suitable for making a keel 02. Steam to bend the Keel Resin/Tar 01. To make the ship water tight Rope 01. Hemp 02. Flax 03. Animal skin or 04. Wool 05. And all the specialized tool to make rope Sheep Farming 01. Sheep are needed to produce wool for a Sail. It takes 1 sheep to produce enough wool for 1 square foot of sail . Assuming a 30x30 sail a herd of 900 sheep would be required. If more than 1 sail was produced this would either require multiple years of wool production or more sheep since sheep can only be sheared once per season. 02. Of course a larger ship, like the kind Lehi/Nephi's party would have required would be in need of a much larger sail than a 30x30. Using the standard boat displacement to sail ratio of 18lbs of displacement to every foot of sail. So a small boat say with a 12,000 lbs displacement would require 650 square feet of sail. A 75,000 lbs ship would require 4,000 sq ft of sail. A 100 foot ship with a displacement of 150,000 pounds then would require nearly 8,500 feet of sail and even this would be a slow boat....this would require a herd of about 8,500 sheep, plus all of the grazing requirements to feed and sustain. We know the Lehite party spent many years at Bountiful...but I wonder how many years it would have taken to build up their Sheep herd to 8,500 from their smaller breading herd? This also assumes none of the wool is used to make clothing for other uses. But the good news is that a herd this large would have left behind evidence of their existence for the archeologist to discover. Clothe-weaving-looms 01. Needed to create the clothe necessary for make a sail The invention of a Rudder with all of its intricacies (something that wasn’t invented until 200 years after Lehi) 01. Pullies 02. Ropes 03. Gears Food Preservation Techniques 01. Pickling 02. Food drying etc Water and Food Storage 01. Men require a minimum of 4 liters of water per day, woman would need 3, assuming a party of 25-30 divided between men and woman there would be a need for or about 100 liters per day. Assuming a 200 day journey this would require 20,000 liters of water stored on the boat. There are 1,000 liters of water per square meter. 20,000 meters would barely fit in a 10m x 20m holding tank. which is about 33 feet by 65 feet...and that's just for water. This assumes they use none of it for washing, bathing or cooking. 02. Once we add additional room for food and humble sleeping quarters...we could have a ship of nearly 100 feet in length, of course water needs could be lowers if we assume Nephi made various landings along the way to replenish a smaller water reserve. Pottery for food and water storage 01. Baking ovens to make the pottery 02. Clay diggings to make the pottery This list is not all inclusive but gives an idea of the magnitude of what these archeologist will find in Bountiful Other things that might be discovered: waist deposits, animal bones, fire pits, perhaps a grave or 2 in addition to the construction sight. So the good news is that Nephi would have had a huge construction sight in Bountiful...making it almost certain that this archeological dig will be successful... Edited February 12, 2016 by Johnnie Cake 2
ksfisher Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 9 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: I find this an exciting development and one of the most promising opportunities to find evidence of Lehi's party. I've made a list of the industries that Nephi would have needed, so surely evidence in any one of these areas could be found. Industries needed for Nephi and company to make a Transocean Ship Smelting Ovens /Blast Furness 01. Charcoal Ovens to make charcoal for fire to make blast Furness since there was no coal for making coke. 02. Acres of forests to get the wood needed to make the charcoal for blast furnace and wood for the ship 03. Thousands of Nails, metal strapping, hand tools ie hammers, all’s, saws etc Question: Where did he get tools to access Iron Ore in the first place? Dry Dock 01. Excavation of earth below water line 02. Gates that hold water back 03. Pumps to keep water out Tanning 01. Skins needed for bellows Make a Keel Capable of surviving an Oceanic voyage 01. Forest with trees suitable for making a keel 02. Steam to bend the Keel Resin/Tar 01. To make the ship water tight Rope 01. Hemp 02. Flax 03. Animal skin or 04. Wool 05. And all the specialized tool to make rope Sheep Farming 01. Sheep are needed to produce wool for a Sail. It takes 1 sheep to produce enough wool for 1 square foot of sail . Assuming a 30x30 sail a herd of 900 sheep would be required. If more than 1 sail was produced this would either require multiple years of wool production or more sheep since sheep can only be sheared once per season. 02. Of course a larger ship, like the kind Lehi/Nephi's party would have required would be in need of a much larger sail than a 30x30. Using the standard boat displacement to sail ratio of 18lbs of displacement to every foot of sail. So a small boat say with a 12,000 lbs displacement would require 650 square feet of sail. A 75,000 lbs ship would require 4,000 sq ft of sail. A 100 foot ship with a displacement of 150,000 pounds then would require nearly 8,500 feet of sail and even this would be a slow boat....this would require a herd of about 8,500 sheep, plus all of the grazing requirements to feed and sustain. We know the Lehite party spent many years at Bountiful...but I wonder how many years it would have taken to build up their Sheep herd to 8,500 from their smaller breading herd? This also assumes none of the wool is used to make clothing for other uses. But the good news is that a herd this large would have left behind evidence of their existence for the archeologist to discover. Clothe-weaving-looms 01. Needed to create the clothe necessary for make a sale The invention of a Rudder with all of its intricacies (something that wasn’t invented until 200 years after Lehi) 01. Pullies 02. Ropes 03. Gears Food Preservation Techniques 01. Pickling 02. Food drying etc Water and Food Storage 01. Men require a minimum of 4 liters of water per day, woman would need 3, assuming a party of 25-30 divided between men and woman there would be a need for or about 100 liters per day. Assuming a 200 day journey this would require 20,000 liters of water stored on the boat. There are 1,000 liters of water per square meter. 20,000 meters would barely fit in a 10m x 20m holding tank. which is about 33 feet by 65 feet...and that's just for water. This assumes they use none of it for washing, bathing or cooking. 02. Once we add additional room for food and humble sleeping quarters...we could have a ship of nearly 100 feet in length, of course water needs could be lowers if we assume Nephi made various landings along the way to replenish a smaller water reserve. Pottery for food and water storage 01. Baking ovens to make the pottery 02. Clay diggings to make the pottery This list is not all inclusive but gives an idea of the magnitude of what these archeologist will find in Bountiful Other things that might be discovered: waist deposits, animal bones, fire pits, perhaps a grave or 2 in addition to the construction sight. So the good news is that Nephi would have had a huge construction sight in Bountiful...making it almost certain that this archeological dig will be successful... It appears as though the Book of Mormon has failed, even before it gets out of the old world.
thesometimesaint Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 Not really; meteoric iron has been used from very ancient times to form tools. SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteoric_iron
Johnnie Cake Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 (edited) 17 hours ago, MDalby said: A team of archaeologists and scholars will be at an Oman site that is proposed to potentially be Nephi’s Bountiful on a dig to find answers to some critical questions about conditions there in 600 BC. http://ldsmag.com/major-announcement-omanis-grant-permission-to-dig-at-nephis-bountiful/ Looks kind of barren now...But I can imagine that It must have been beautiful during Nephi's time...what with that beautiful forest of trees capable of being turned into lumber, masts and keels.. kind of a shame they had to cut them all down and harvested them all to build their ship. Edited February 12, 2016 by Johnnie Cake
thesometimesaint Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 4 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: Looks kind of barren now...But I can imagine that It must have been beautiful during Nephi's time...what with that beautiful forest of trees capable of being turned into lumber, masts and keels.. before they harvested them all to build their ship. It doesn't take a whole lot of lumber to make a Dhow. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhow
Nevo Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 Just now, thesometimesaint said: Not really; meteoric iron has been used from very ancient times to form tools. SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteoric_iron Well, that solves the problem of there being no iron ore nearby. Quote Nephi made only one request of the Lord, so far as we know. Where could he find ore to make shipbuilding tools? Perhaps he could have purchased such tools at Khor Rori, or perhaps not, and surely Lehi had brought basic tools, like a hammer and axe, from Jerusalem. Whatever access he may have had, Nephi chose to make his own tools and, having the ore, seemed to know how to proceed. Perhaps only a geologist would understand the sincere need for divine help, as relatively young limestone layers (Tertiary and Cretaceous) are the surface rocks over nearly all the Dhofar province. Only where these limestone layers have been stripped away by erosion is there a real possibility of finding ore, and the only large area of such “basement” exposure is the Marbat Plain, east of Marbat between Jabal Samhan and the Arabian Sea. – Wm. Revell Phillips, "Mughsayl: Another Candidate for Land Bountiful," Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 16, no. 2 (2007): 54–55.
thesometimesaint Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 We don't really know exactly Nephi's building methods were, But it is a fair assumption that they brought some simple tools with them and may have traded for, or made, others. Still lots to learn. I don't foresee any conclusive proof for a long time to come. OTOH No one has given me that crystal ball.so what do I know.
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