Devils Advocate 1

[Anakin7]

       LDS critics state that Emma Smith cannot be trusted in her testimony of her Husband Joseph Smith Jr. 1- she testified that Joseph was not able to put together a coherant sentance much less write/produce the Book of Mormon yet later in his life he produced well polished written letters and other revelations in good english. 2 - She also stated that while he was translating that he had no other books with him while translating, yet whole verses from the Bible are contained within the text of the Book of Mormon [ No Bible on his lap while producing the Book of Mormon ? ] .She supposedly cannot be trusted because she lied to her children about aspects of Joseph's life like polygamy. I believe that Jim Stiles stated that Emma lied to her children about Joseph Smiths polygam so all other testimonies from her cannot be trusted. If I am in error on this I apologize in advance.

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

             Anakin7

[JAHS]

1. By that time, later in his life, he learned better how to write. Those other revelations were inspired by God to help him write them well.

2. She wasn't standing over watching him the entire time he was translating. Perhaps she just missed it. Or he was able to reproduce those verses through revelation and it was God's will that the verses matched those found in the Bible. 

No one ever said Emma was perfect.

[Avatar4321]

Doesn't the devil have enough advocates?

I don't see anything particularly untrustworthy about Emma. Nor do I find her testimony as important concerning the Book of Mormon. The testimony of the primary witnesses, the Book itself, and most importantly the Holy Spirit are the most important witnesses 

[stemelbow]

many people have done many amazing things with little learning.  I agree that saying he couldn't have written the book isn't very convincing.  It sounds like she could have exaggerated about his ability to read and write.  he obviously could do something.  And others, at least the scribes, were there.  So not exactly a convincing piece from her on this.

Sure it's troubling that she denied her husband's polygamous life.  That was lying.  But we all lie so by that standard nothing any of us says can be taken seriously. 

[Freedom]

so if a person lies about one aspect of their past, a aspect that they would arguably want to keep secret, we must throw out everything they ever said? You would have to provide evidence of a pattern of lying. Few parents would tell the truth of the darker aspects of their past to their children. 

Not only did he include long passages that were very similar to the bible without having a book in front of him, but he also produced hundreds of pages from ancient american prophets without any reference material. This argument is rather silly.

I met a man who is fluent in Spanish, which proves that his claims he did not grow up speaking Spanish were a lie. I also met a woman who claimed she was not engineer until she was 27. Lies. 

A superficial consideration of these criticism reveal that they are not at all valid. 

[Robert F. Smith]

14 hours ago, Anakin7 said:

       LDS critics state that Emma Smith cannot be trusted in her testimony of her Husband Joseph Smith Jr. 1- she testified that Joseph was not able to put together a coherant sentance much less write/produce the Book of Mormon yet later in his life he produced well polished written letters and other revelations in good english. 2 - She also stated that while he was translating that he had no other books with him while translating, yet whole verses from the Bible are contained within the text of the Book of Mormon [ No Bible on his lap while producing the Book of Mormon ? ] .She supposedly cannot be trusted because she lied to her children about aspects of Joseph's life like polygamy. I believe that Jim Stiles stated that Emma lied to her children about Joseph Smiths polygam so all other testimonies from her cannot be trusted. If I am in error on this I apologize in advance.

.....................................

We know from his earliest writings that Joseph was a very poor writer -- just as Emma said -- even though (as you say) he learned how to write well later.  Moreover, based on the work of Royal Skousen and Stanford Carmack, it is now clear that Joseph had nothing to do with the formulation of the words and sentences in the Book of Mormon -- except to read them as they appeared on his stone in the hat.  Thus, Emma appears to be correct in that assertion as well (apart from the fact that none of the other first-hand observers ever saw Joseph use a book while he was transmitting the text to his scribes).

The  only reason we are certain that Emma lied about polygamy is because we have excellent historical evidence which contradicts what she said to her son and others.  Indeed, she had a motive for lying to him:  The RLDS Church (of which she was a member) was built on the solid conviction that Joseph never practiced polygamy, and that it was an invention of Brigham Young.  So, her personal humiliation at the polygamy "principle," along with the threat to her son's new Church (he was RLDS President), provide the impetus to lie, but only in that case.  The RLDS Church later admitted that Joseph had in fact introduced polygamy because of the overwhelming historical evidence, as that entire official body exited the Restoration.  A hard pill to swallow.

Edited February 4, 2016 by Robert F. Smith

[The Nehor]

[mnn727]

Quote

she testified that Joseph was not able to put together a coherant sentance much less write/produce the Book of Mormon yet later in his life he produced well polished written letters and other revelations in good english.

 

I was never good at creative writing when I was young, now in my very late 50's I write stories and publish them for others to read on the internet and get compliments.

We learn and grow as we age (at least some people do).

[Glenn101]

On 2/3/2016 at 10:20 AM, stemelbow said:

many people have done many amazing things with little learning.  I agree that saying he couldn't have written the book isn't very convincing.  It sounds like she could have exaggerated about his ability to read and write.  he obviously could do something.  And others, at least the scribes, were there.  So not exactly a convincing piece from her on this.

Sure it's troubling that she denied her husband's polygamous life.  That was lying.  But we all lie so by that standard nothing any of us says can be taken seriously. 

Why do you agree that the assertion that Joseph Could not have written the Book of Mormon to be very convincing? let us turn this around. Provide convincing evidence that Joseph could have written the Book of Mormon. That should be an easy one. I am not asking for blithe assertions, but some type of evidence. Any credible hypothesis needs to cover the things that have been found that were not part of Joseph's background and learning experience. Robert F. Smith has a post noting the work of Royal Skousen and Stanford Carmack essentially showing that the Book of Mormon English was originally Early Modern English that had mostly fell out of use before the KJV was produced. You can start there.

 

Glenn

[6EQUJ5]

On 2/3/2016 at 10:12 AM, Avatar4321 said:

I don't see anything particularly untrustworthy about Emma. Nor do I find her testimony as important concerning the Book of Mormon. 

I fully agree.  Brigham Young certainly didn't think much of Emma for some reason but I kind of see her as occasionally getting in Joseph's way.  Her testimony and role in the Restoration was minimal at best.  I think more time should be spent on the Whitmers and other in Church lessons because as you say they are the really important witnesses.  We shoudl never forget that Emma rejected true prophets and embraced false ones (Joseph III).

[stemelbow]

On ‎2‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 10:06 AM, Glenn101 said:

Why do you agree that the assertion that Joseph Could not have written the Book of Mormon to be very convincing? let us turn this around. Provide convincing evidence that Joseph could have written the Book of Mormon. That should be an easy one. I am not asking for blithe assertions, but some type of evidence. Any credible hypothesis needs to cover the things that have been found that were not part of Joseph's background and learning experience. Robert F. Smith has a post noting the work of Royal Skousen and Stanford Carmack essentially showing that the Book of Mormon English was originally Early Modern English that had mostly fell out of use before the KJV was produced. You can start there.

 

Glenn

It's easy to see it's not all the convincing because it hasn't really convinced anyone.  Those who throw it out there are using it to support their already formed opinion that the book is scripture.  I agree it's scripture.  I agree it's unlikely that he could have written it.  But, many aren't convinced by that, and I don't blame them.  Somehow, someway people have done pretty incredible things, things that seem unbelievable at times.  It's happened.  It's not a matter of arguing against Skousen nor Carmack.  I'm behind them in their efforts.  I have nothing to critique.  Although their arguments support the believers, their arguments do not prove the book could not have been written by Joseph nor others helping him--which is what many people have concluded.

[FormerLDS]

On ‎2‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 9:00 AM, Anakin7 said:

       LDS critics state that Emma Smith cannot be trusted in her testimony of her Husband Joseph Smith Jr. 1- she testified that Joseph was not able to put together a coherant sentance much less write/produce the Book of Mormon yet later in his life he produced well polished written letters and other revelations in good english. 2 - She also stated that while he was translating that he had no other books with him while translating, yet whole verses from the Bible are contained within the text of the Book of Mormon [ No Bible on his lap while producing the Book of Mormon ? ] .She supposedly cannot be trusted because she lied to her children about aspects of Joseph's life like polygamy. I believe that Jim Stiles stated that Emma lied to her children about Joseph Smiths polygam so all other testimonies from her cannot be trusted. If I am in error on this I apologize in advance.

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

             Anakin7

How could this even be a discussion?  "Supernatural" should never be equated with the one true God.  The "prophet" Muhammad supposedly could not read or write, yet he "wrote" the entire Quran.  Islam points to Muhammad's illiteracy as evidence of the divine authenticity of the Quran. 

[Gray]

On 2/4/2016 at 11:06 AM, Glenn101 said:

Why do you agree that the assertion that Joseph Could not have written the Book of Mormon to be very convincing? let us turn this around. Provide convincing evidence that Joseph could have written the Book of Mormon. That should be an easy one. I am not asking for blithe assertions, but some type of evidence. Any credible hypothesis needs to cover the things that have been found that were not part of Joseph's background and learning experience. Robert F. Smith has a post noting the work of Royal Skousen and Stanford Carmack essentially showing that the Book of Mormon English was originally Early Modern English that had mostly fell out of use before the KJV was produced. You can start there.

 

Glenn

[Anakin7]

27 minutes ago, FormerLDS said:

How could this even be a discussion?  "Supernatural" should never be equated with the one true God.  The "prophet" Muhammad supposedly could not read or write, yet he "wrote" the entire Quran.  Islam points to Muhammad's illiteracy as evidence of the divine authenticity of the Quran. 

    So are you saying that "supernatural events" caused by God cannot be equated with Him ?. God enpowered supernatural events helped Joseph Smith Translate the Book of Mormon .Book of Mormon is far superior in content of its message than the Koran. Differences.

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

             Anakin7

[Gray]

1 hour ago, Anakin7 said:

    So are you saying that "supernatural events" caused by God cannot be equated with Him ?. God enpowered supernatural events helped Joseph Smith Translate the Book of Mormon .Book of Mormon is far superior in content of its message than the Koran. Differences.

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

             Anakin7

I suppose this is off topic. But Mormonism's relationship to the supernatural is a bit unclear. We talk about things normally thought of as supernatural, but define them in naturalistic terms. 

[Nevo]

On 2/4/2016 at 9:06 AM, Glenn101 said:

Provide convincing evidence that Joseph could have written the Book of Mormon. That should be an easy one. I am not asking for blithe assertions, but some type of evidence.

B.H. Roberts pondered whether "Joseph Smith [was] possessed of a sufficiently vivid and creative imagination as to produce such a work as the Book of Mormon" and ultimately concluded that "there can be no question" that he did possess such a mind (B.H. Roberts, Studies of the Book of Mormon, ed. Brigham H. Madsen [Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1992], 243).

Lucy Mack Smith recalled that Joseph, even as a young teenager, was "given to reflection and deep study" and noted that he "always seemed to reflect more deeply than common persons of his age upon everything of a religious nature." Following Moroni's first visit in 1823, Lucy reported that the family "sat up up very late and listened attentively to all that he had to say to us but his mind had been so exercised that he became very much fatigued. When Alvin saw this he said now brother let us go to bed and we will get up early in the morning and go to work so as to finish our days labor by an an hour before sunset & if Mother will get our suppers early we will then have a fine long evening <and> to all set down and hear you talk The next day they <we> worked with great ambition by sunset. Accordingly, by sunset the next day we were all seated, and Joseph commenced telling us the great and glorious things which God had manifested to him. . . . From this time forth Joseph continued to receive ans instructions from time to time and every evening we gathered our children togather and gave our our time up to the discussion of those things which he imparted <un>to us. . . . In the course of our evening conversations Joseph would give us some of the most ammusing recitals which could be immagined he would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent their dress thier maner of traveling the animals which they rode The cities that were built by them the structure of their buildings with every particular of their mode of warfare their religious worship—as particularly as though he had spent his life with them." Yet, as B.H. Roberts observed, "all this happened before even the second interview with Moroni had taken place, and between three and four years before the translation of the Book of Mormon began." In Roberts's view, "these evening recitals could come from no other source than the vivid, constructive imagination of Joseph Smith, a remarkable power which attended him throughout all his life" (Roberts, 244; emphasis in original).

Other examples of Joseph imaginatively recovering ancient history include the following:

• "The contemplation of the scenery before <around> us produced peculiar sensations in our  bosoms; and <subsequently> the visions of the past being opend to my understanding by the Spirit of the Almighty I discovered that the person whose Skeleton was before us, <we had seen> was a white Lamanite, a large thick set man, and a man of God. <His name was Zelph.> He was a warrior <and Chieftain> under the great prophet Onandagus, who was known from the hill Cumorah, or eastern sea, to the Rocky Mountains. His name was Zelph. The curse was  taken from him, <Zelph> or, at least, in part. One of his thigh bones was broken by a stone flung from a sling, while in battle, years before his death. He was killed in battle, by the arrow found among his ribs, during a last great struggle with the Lamanites. and Nephites" (http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/history-1838-1856-volume-a-1-23-december-1805-30-august-1834?p=489).
   
• "On our arrival at Diahman, our camp was pitched upon the town plat which had just been surveyed by direction of the Prophet, and of course each one was anxious to obtain the most eligible, or first choice of lots. As I was young and unmarried my choice would come near the last under the rule of "oldest served first." So when it was my choice I found I must take the top lot on the promontory overlooking the Grand River valley, or go farther away and lower down than I wished to. So I chose the upper, which at first appeared rocky, but which made the other lots appear almost enviable. When, after a few days, the Prophet accompanied us to this spot, and pointed out those rocks as the ones of which Adam built an altar and offered sacrifice upon this spot, where he stood and blessed the multitude of his children, when they called him Michael, and where he will again sit as the Ancient of Days, then I was not envious of anyone's choice for a city lot in Adam-ondi-Ahman. Yet I would not have it inferred that my inheritance there, or those given me elsewhere are to be especially guaranteed to have in future." (Benjamin F. Johnson, My Life's Review [Independence, MO: Zion's Printing and Publishing Co., 1947], 35-36).
   
• "we came to Col. Lyman Wight’s who lives at the foot of Tower Hill, a name appropriated by Prest smith, in consequence of the remains of an old Nephitish Alter an Tower" (http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/journal-march-september-1838?p=29).
   
• "Prest J. [Joseph Smith] has translated a portion [of the Kinderhook Plates] and says they contain the history of the person with whom they were found and he was a descendant of Ham through the loins of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth." (William Clayton Journal, 1 May 1843).
   
• [They've just finished breakfast] "And now come with me," said the prophet, "and I will show you the curiosities." So saying, he led the way to a lower room, where sat a venerable and respectable-looking lady. "This is my mother, gentlemen. The curiosities we shall see belong to her. They were purchased with her own money, at a cost of six thousand dollars;" and then, with deep feeling, were added the words, "And that woman was turned out upon the prairie in the dead of night by a mob." There were some pine presses fixed against the wall of the room. These receptacles Smith opened, and disclosed four human bodies, shrunken and black with age. "These are mummies," said the exhibitor. "I want you to look at that little runt of a fellow over there. He was a great man in his day. Why, that was Pharaoh Necho, King of Egypt!" Some parchments inscribed with hieroglyphics were then offered us. They were preserved under glass and handled with great respect. "That is the handwriting of Abraham, the Father of the Faithful," said the prophet. (https://books.google.ca/books?id=Vow-AAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA386&pg=PA386#v=onepage&q&f=false)

 

Edited February 9, 2016 by Nevo

[Nevo]

On 2/4/2016 at 9:06 AM, Glenn101 said:

Provide convincing evidence that Joseph could have written the Book of Mormon. That should be an easy one. I am not asking for blithe assertions, but some type of evidence.

We might also consider elements of Joseph's biography that seem to turn up on the gold plates. Like Joseph, Nephi is "a strong younger brother, the one to have visions and teach the others," who takes charge of the family in place of his father and older brother (see Richard Lyman Bushman, Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling [New York: Knopf, 2005], 106). Joseph had spent some time as an exhorter as a youth; Nephi frequently exhorts his brothers to turn from their backsliding (1 Ne. 7:21; 15:25; 16:4; 17:15). Nephi at one point is accused of saying that "the Lord has talked to him, and also that angels have ministered unto him" and is also accused of using "cunning arts" to deceive (1 Ne. 16:38)—charges also leveled against the teenage Joseph. The Book of Mormon declares that it will be brought forth by a seer named Joseph, whose father is also named Joseph (2 Ne. 3). Book of Mormon prophets, Nephite and Jaredite alike, employ seer stones. Mosiah uses them to translate ancient records on gold plates. Slippery treasures—a staple of treasure-digging lore in Joseph's day—make their appearance (Hel. 13:31, 33, 36; Morm. 1:18), as do secret combinations, Universalist preachers (Alma 1), proponents of infant baptism (Moro. 8), etc.

As Richard Bushman has noted, the Book of Mormon "patriotically [honors] America by giving it a biblical history. And yet on closer reading, the Book of Mormon contests the amalgam of Enlightenment, republican, Protestant, capitalist, and nationalist values that constituted American culture. . . . Against increasing wealth and inequality, the Book of Mormon advocates the cause of the poor. Against the subjection of the Indians, it promises the continent to the native people. Against republican government, it proposes righteous rule by judges and kings under God’s law. Against a closed-canon Bible and non-miraculous religion, the Book of Mormon stands for ongoing revelation, miracles, and revelation to all nations. Against skepticism, it promotes belief; against nationalism, a universal Israel. It foresees disaster for the nation if the love of riches, resistance to revelation, and Gentile civilization prevail over righteousness, revelation, and Israel.” In short, "the Book of Mormon can be read as a ‘document of profound social protest’ against the dominant culture of Joseph Smith’s time" (Bushman, 104-105).

Edited February 11, 2016 by Nevo

[cinepro]

On 2/4/2016 at 9:06 AM, Glenn101 said:

Why do you agree that the assertion that Joseph Could not have written the Book of Mormon to be very convincing? let us turn this around. Provide convincing evidence that Joseph could have written the Book of Mormon. That should be an easy one. I am not asking for blithe assertions, but some type of evidence. Any credible hypothesis needs to cover the things that have been found that were not part of Joseph's background and learning experience. Robert F. Smith has a post noting the work of Royal Skousen and Stanford Carmack essentially showing that the Book of Mormon English was originally Early Modern English that had mostly fell out of use before the KJV was produced. You can start there.

 

Glenn

While I'm not arguing the point specifically, I would point out that there is solid (dare I say stunning?) evidence that Joseph Smith could have written* The Book of Mormon here.

*or "dictated without reference to ancient writings"

Edited February 9, 2016 by cinepro