The Mormon Feminist Fighting for Priesthood

[Calm]

1 hour ago, consiglieri said:

I think the bottom line for me is if, in a ward where there were no women "worthy" to be called as Relief Society President, a man could conceivably substitute.

I disagree.  I would say that it is a fundamental redefining of the role to claim that a man can serve as RS President.  It is clear that is not how JS said the organization was revealed to him.

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, consiglieri said:

I think the bottom line for me is if, in a ward where there were no women "worthy" to be called as Relief Society President, a man could conceivably substitute.

On the other hand, if we had a ward where there were no men "worthy" to be called as bishop or EQP, etc., a woman could not conceivably substitute.

I think i remember someone saying that they knew of or had heard of a missionary elder being called to be a RS president in an area where there was no one else to call (though if there are sisters in RS that need a president, i don't know how that could be the case), but i'm not sure.

Does that story sound familiar to anyone?

[Calm]

There was a cartoon joke like that awhile back.  IIRC it was makelan who drew it.  Whether it was real life or just a joke is something else.

[Calm]

Found it:

 

[Storm Rider]

19 hours ago, Rain said:

The subject would be interesting to look at. I wonder also if it makes a difference in how comfortable one is with the subject. For example, if you have a group of fourth graders with girls who think they are not good at math but consistantly have the same grades as the boys will the problem solving be the same as professional math professors?

 The statement will have merit if it is for something that is easily quantifiable such as completing a math problem, but apparently it did not.  In the article Blue linked it stated:  

• "But it was affected considerably by the members’ social sensitivity, their ability to sense the thoughts and feelings of others."

The test seemed to demonstrate that the team's intelligence when tests such as the "Reading the Mind in the Eyes" is included.  

I guess I have a bit of a jaundiced eye for such tests and their applicability in the real world to real world tests.  The article ends with the sentence, "These results are not widely known, but they should be and will be. As team success increasingly drives business success, they’re too important to remain obscure."  It suppose it may be good if there actually was a direct application to business, but I suspect there is not a lot of applicability.  

[Storm Rider]

On 2/9/2016 at 2:52 PM, juliann said:

I don't know how to begin to respond. Forget the research, which is ubiquitous, just review General Conf talks to answer your question. Ironically ,what you seem to be saying is that men and women are the same, even feminists do not claim that (no matter how many insist they do.)  When statistics are used, it is never claimed that ALL fall into one group. If the results say "80%" that means that "20%" are not in that group. I can't have been more clear that studies can only talk about the majority and there are exceptions. It leads me to believe you  aren't following the conversation while requiring me to repeat myself but adding no data yourself.

I have put up sources. For your assertion of sameness to be discussed, you need to use some.  So I am again giving a CFR that supports an idea that men and women are interchangeable in most instances.

I have read the sources I have access to.  First, the research is not ubiquitous.  I have not read anything that demonstrates that soley an individual's gender alone improves a business team - unless we are talking about social sensitivity measures, which is not a requirement for all teams and has a more narrow applicability in world business.  

Second, I have never said that men and women are the same - I used the word INDIVIDUAL for a reason.  Personal, as in an individual's strengths and weaknesses have little to do with one's gender.  I am not denying that there are stereotypical male and female strengths and weaknesses, but I reject that a gender will always fit the stereotype.  Individuals are different aside from gender possessing a range of qualities and characteristics.  It is actually ubiquitous that individuals should be evaluated on their own personal strengths and weaknesses for a position in business.  

Third, yup I have read all the entries.  Yes, I actually comprehend the positions of others.  Yes, I can be rather thick at times, but this is not one of them.  

Fourth, it seems you have not actually read my comments or comprehended them.  You may want to do that rather than accusing me of things that I have not said or support. 

Edited February 10, 2016 by Storm Rider

[consiglieri]

14 hours ago, CV75 said:

LOL where do you get this stuff? The relief Society has always operated under the key that was turned in its behalf by the Prophet.

“I now turn the key to you in the name of God and this Society shall rejoice and knowledge and intelligence shall flow down from this time—this is the beginning of better days to this Society.” (Minutes, 28 Apr. 1842, p. 40.)”

Thus, “It operates under the direction of priesthood leaders” (9.1.2) just as it always has. You have issues with Correlation? That has nothing to do with men not being members of relief Society; that was the case before Correlation.

Men have to be members of their quorums to serve in their presidencies. They can only be members of their respective quorums, not the Relief Society.

I get "this stuff" mostly from history.

Just because Joseph Smith "turned the key" to the Relief Society does not mean it forever operated under the Priesthood; or under a form of the Priesthood reserved exclusively for males.

In fact, some are of the opinion that Joseph Smith's "turn the key" phrase indicates a passing of the key to Relief Society.  That would be a key of the Priesthood which many today are prone to say are held exclusively by the male hierarchy.

Additionally, the RS minutes show the Joseph intended to make a kingdom of priests of the Relief Society, which would fit with this interpretation of "turn the key."

From its formation, RS operated as a separate and independent organization of the Church.

Over time, Relief Society's independence was carved away piece by piece until ultimately, it was placed entirely under the direction of the male priesthood with the advent of the Correlation program in the early 1960's.

 

[Nofear]

I'm not sure what hypothetical point is trying to be made. Or how it is germane to the following three facts.

1. The Lord does not now intend or ever has intended for his Church to be single gender.
2. Women can and do exercise priesthood authority.
3. The Lord's servants have made quite some effort to improve upon the social norms practiced by members of the Church, including those related to gender.

Indeed, it might well be interpreted that this "discussion" to emphasize a hypothetical distracts from these truths and hence opposes the efforts of our prophets to get these ideas into the hearts of the membership.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, consiglieri said:

I get "this stuff" mostly from history.

Just because Joseph Smith "turned the key" to the Relief Society does not mean it forever operated under the Priesthood; or under a form of the Priesthood reserved exclusively for males.

In fact, some are of the opinion that Joseph Smith's "turn the key" phrase indicates a passing of the key to Relief Society.  That would be a key of the Priesthood which many today are prone to say are held exclusively by the male hierarchy.

Additionally, the RS minutes show the Joseph intended to make a kingdom of priests of the Relief Society, which would fit with this interpretation of "turn the key."

From its formation, RS operated as a separate and independent organization of the Church.

Over time, Relief Society's independence was carved away piece by piece until ultimately, it was placed entirely under the direction of the male priesthood with the advent of the Correlation program in the early 1960's.

 

Well that’s a fine opinion, especially in squaring "passing the key to Relief Society" with Joseph retaining all the keys, and with substituting men for women as its Presidents. Knock yourself out!

Everyone and everything forever operates under the Priesthood. No member or organization of members in Zion is separate and independent (just the opposite!); thus functions the body of Christ. Auxiliaries, essentially by definition, are “helpmeets” to the families and priesthood quorums of the Church.

Complain about Correlation all you want, but it is really about gathering the saints together in one, with one heart and with one mind as the scriptures put it.

ETA:

http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/nauvoo-relief-society-minute-book?p=19#!/paperSummary/nauvoo-relief-society-minute-book&p=19

To make the Relief Society a kingdom of priests according to the ancient priesthood as in the days of Enoch and Paul simply means to incorporate the Society as an Auxiliary into the Kingdom of God on Earth. Correlation did its part in accomplishing this.

Edited February 10, 2016 by CV75

[consiglieri]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

 

Everyone and everything forever operates under the Priesthood. No member or organization of members in Zion is separate and independent (just the opposite!); thus functions the body of Christ. Auxiliaries, essentially by definition, are “helpmeets” to the families and priesthood quorums of the Church.

Complain about Correlation all you want, but it is really about gathering the saints together in one, with one heart and with one mind as the scriptures put it.

ETA:

http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/nauvoo-relief-society-minute-book?p=19#!/paperSummary/nauvoo-relief-society-minute-book&p=19

To make the Relief Society a kingdom of priests according to the ancient priesthood as in the days of Enoch and Paul simply means to incorporate the Society as an Auxiliary into the Kingdom of God on Earth. Correlation did its part in accomplishing this.

Revisionist history at its finest. 

 

[CV75]

57 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

Revisionist history at its finest. 

 

My link is to the actual historical document; the conclusion from those minutes is mine. By turning the key, Joseph Smith was not letting go of it, but delegating the authority to the sisters to operate the society within the earthly kingdom for the benefit of the whole. This, the order of leadership and his reasons for creating the society of sisters are explained in these minutes: http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/nauvoo-relief-society-minute-book?p=37&highlight=appointed%20to%20lead#!/paperSummary/nauvoo-relief-society-minute-book&p=31

[JLHPROF]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

To make the Relief Society a kingdom of priests according to the ancient priesthood as in the days of Enoch and Paul simply means to incorporate the Society as an Auxiliary into the Kingdom of God on Earth. Correlation did its part in accomplishing this.

Not at all accurate.

It is a direct reference to the temple, and to the specific promises made in the initiatory.
It has nothing to do with auxiliaries, and even less to do with Correlation.

However, it also has nothing to do with ordaining women to ecclesiastical offices.

Edited February 10, 2016 by JLHPROF

[juliann]

To be accurate, no one but Joseph knows what was intended because there are no extant records with his clarifications. That is why it is debated.

[JLHPROF]

48 minutes ago, juliann said:

To be accurate, no one but Joseph knows what was intended because there are no extant records with his clarifications. That is why it is debated.

Fair enough.
But considering the wording of the initiatory and the historical timing surrounding the endowment and the establishment of the Holy Order I think we can make an educated guess.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Not at all accurate.

It is a direct reference to the temple, and to the specific promises made in the initiatory.
It has nothing to do with auxiliaries, and even less to do with Correlation.

However, it also has nothing to do with ordaining women to ecclesiastical offices.

Let the minutes show (!):

“that the church is not now organiz’d in its proper order, and cannot be until the Temple  is completed——“ I think this is a reference to the developmental stages of the Society alluded to in that discourse, which come as an outgrowth of the men and women once they were endowed:

 - “that it was  better for individuals to magnify their respective callings, and  wait patiently till God shall say to them come up higher.”

 - “let every thing roll on.”

 - “He reprov’d those that were dispos’d to find fault  with the management of concerns— saying if he undertook to lead  the church he would lead it right— that he calculates to organize  the church in proper order &c.”

 - “every person should stand and act in the place  appointed, and thus sanctify the Society and get it pure—”

 - “He said as he had this opportunity, he was going to  instruct the Society and point out the way for them to conduct,  that they might act according to the will of God—“

 - “He spoke of delivering the keys to this Society and to the church—”

 - “place confidence, in those whom  God has appointed to honor, whom God has plac’d at the  head to lead— that we should arm them with our prayers—that the keys of the kingdom are about to be given to them”

 - “This Society shall have power to command Queens in their midst— I  now deliver it as a prophecy that before ten years shall roll  round, the queens of the earth shall come and pay their  respects to this Society— they shall come with their millions  and shall contribute of their abundance for the relief of the  poor— If you will be pure, nothing can hinder.”

 - “this Society shall rejoice and knowledge and intelligence  shall flow down from this time— this is the beginning of  better days, to this Society”

So I’d say the evolution of the Auxiliaries and Correlation are evidences of the effect the outpouring of the Spirit has had on the Church’s endowed men and women since the Temple was completed. This is to dispel the notion that the Church is organized to function with men as Relief Society Presidents, and that the Relief Society's alleged relegation to an Auxiliary and its Correlation with the rest of the Church organization was an artifice to prevent that from happening.

Edited February 10, 2016 by CV75