Popular Post Glenn101 Posted January 30, 2016 Popular Post Posted January 30, 2016 (edited) Since the new policy has been promulgated there have been several posters who have voiced a great displeasure at the policy and are currently questioning themselves on whether or not to remain members of the Church. To those who are asking themselves those questions and have a sincere testimony of the Gospel, I would encourage you fervently to stay. Remember the words of the Apostle Peter in John Chapter 6 when many of the disciples of Jesus had walked away " because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven." Christ asked of the twelve "Will ye also go away?" And Peter replied "Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life." Where will you go??? How will leaving help you or your families to gain their exaltation??? How can you help others that have their doubts of the truthfulness of the Gospel??? That is what I hope you will ponder and pray about. And to those who are struggling with doubts and maybe the policy has pushed you to your limits, I urge you to hold on. To seek the truth of it all from the Lord. To not act rashly. To all of you, I would repeat the words of Paul. in 1 Corinthinans 12: " 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: 23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. 24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: 25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. 26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it." We are all trying to get to the same place. We all have hope in Christ. He is our only hope. We need each other. To help each other get there. I hope this helps someone. Glenn Edited January 30, 2016 by Glenn101 Tidy up a bit 5
The Nehor Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 If I go there will be trouble An' if I stay it will be double 4
JLHPROF Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Glenn101 said: Christ asked of the twelve "Will ye also go away?" And Peter replied "Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life." Where will you go??? How will leaving help you or your families to gain their exaltation??? How can you help others that have their doubts of the truthfulness of the Gospel??? That is what I hope you will ponder and pray about. With all due respect Glen, that argument doesn't hold any weight with those who are questioning. If they decide the Church has strayed from God's will they aren't going to think twice about passing up exalting ordinances. It's what Salgare calls the gospel of fear - "Don't leave or you'll lose your eternal family". It may be true, but it's hardly an argument to stay. In order to stay a testimony has to be strong. If it is lost there is little that can make a person stay. Edited January 30, 2016 by JLHPROF 1
salgare Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 (edited) 5 hours ago, Glenn101 said: Remember the words of the Apostle Peter in John Chapter 6 when many of the disciples of Jesus had walked away " because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven." Christ asked of the twelve "Will ye also go away?" And Peter replied "Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life." Where will you go??? How will leaving help you or your families to gain their exaltation??? How can you help others that have their doubts of the truthfulness of the Gospel??? Note: everything that follows is my opinion. Yes jlh, from my very first posts here as salgare, I've questioned the fruits of the Corporate Church (temporal branches) accusing it of corrupting the ecclesiastical branches. For a long time I could only point to questionable fruits of the temporal and simply barren, no fruits from the ecclesiastical branches. I think this might be why the policy shook me so deeply is that it was a solid move from silence to bad, anti-Christ like fruit from the ecclesiastical line. It is this corrupt organization that is exerting unrighteous dominion to extort members of money and maintain an overly authoritative control over theirs lives via fear based doctrines and policies. Glenn's plea is a beautiful one as relating to an individual to Christ relationship. However it implies the expected understanding that individual to Church to Christ is that same thing. The fruits seem to just get worse for those who apply the test given to us, from scripture of how to identify true disciples of Christ. How is continuing to partake from a tree with bad fruit going to provide the promises of partaking the fruit of a good tree? For me, this is were I've become excited about the underlying philosophies which Mark/Givens are expounding. The good tree/fruit can ever only be found subjectively (me to God) and the Objective Church simply can never be True. Edited January 30, 2016 by salgare
Robert F. Smith Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 2 hours ago, salgare said: ............................................................................... For me, this is were I've become excited about the underlying philosophies which Mark/Givens are expounding. The good tree/fruit can ever only be found subjectively (me to God) and the Objective Church simply can never be True. Not sure that you have understood either Mark Bukowski or Terryl Givens, but you must always make your own judgments in matters of this kind. You cannot live on "borrowed light." So, by all means examine the issues closely and do what you feel you have to do. However, you might want to reflect on what has typically happened to other churches, with their rampant denominationalism, with everyone setting himself up as his own personal prophet. I could recommend that you apply the experimental method suggested in Alma 32, but that might not interest you, or seem of any use -- since it is subjective. There are many good people who are not Mormon, and I hope that you find solace with them for awhile. Eventually, of course, we will all be together, and then the denouement will be upon us. 2
salgare Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Not sure that you have understood either Mark Bukowski or Terryl Givens, but you must always make your own judgments in matters of this kind. First of all, Mark mentioned that I had not actually responded to you and hence you were not notified and may be interested in responding. I've thrown out a few thoughts/questions in relationship to this William James / Alma 32 and Marks stated later analytic steps regarding his making a jump past the gold plates etc. I do hope that you will rejoin that thread. http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/66765-philosophies-of-men/?page=3 I'm quiet sure I've only begun to see the underlying philosophies that Mark has introduced me to. I know nothing of Terryl's teachings other than Mark's review of one of his books, you quoted him a lot and his getting well known on the fireside tours around the country. Hence some of my questions to you in the above link "You cannot live on "borrowed light." So, by all means examine the issues closely and do what you feel you have to do. However, you might want to reflect on what has typically happened to other churches, with their rampant denominationalism, with everyone setting himself up as his own personal prophet." Frankly I expected this Givens/New Culture Mormonism to be leading towards acceptance of a non-historical BoM (which it is) and that I could use this to help dissuade my children from the church. I was surprised to see it reignite some hope in me, so yes I want to examine this much more closely. What are some of these churches that have moved away from denominational foundations and what weaknesses do you see in them? It was not my impression that Unitarian type organizations would fit your "personal prophet" comment? "I could recommend that you apply the experimental method suggested in Alma 32, but that might not interest you, or seem of any use -- since it is subjective." As pointed out in the above link I'm very interested in this concept. "There are many good people who are not Mormon, and I hope that you find solace with them for awhile. Eventually, of course, we will all be together, and then the denouement will be upon us." I've always been a loner, so my solace will be with myself ... hence why some new eyes to this concept of subjective words == truth and defining my own perception of reality and dropping the objective capital Truth I have been chasing is appealing. I don't see myself jumping back into any objective cultures anytime soon, but perhaps you were speaking metaphorically. Either way, I have no fears of the denouement. (had to look that one up) Edited January 30, 2016 by salgare
VideoGameJunkie Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 I think everyone should stay. I mean, what's better out there than something that can offer you eternal families and exaltation?
consiglieri Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 6 hours ago, VideoGameJunkie said: I think everyone should stay. I mean, what's better out there than something that can offer you eternal families and exaltation? Something that makes you happy? Something that makes you fulfilled? Something that allows you to live a life true to who you really are? Something that allows you to grow spiritually? Something that allows you to progress? Something that allows you to think? Something that allows you freedom to express your opinion? Something that allows you to love others for who they really are instead of what they pretend to be? 4
JAHS Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 12 hours ago, Glenn101 said: Since the new policy has been promulgated there have been several posters who have voiced a great displeasure at the policy and are currently questioning themselves on whether or not to remain members of the Church. To those who are asking themselves those questions and have a sincere testimony of the Gospel, I would encourage you fervently to stay. In my opinion if they really do have a sincere testimony of the gospel, I very much doubt this one thing would make them leave. It would have to include a long list of other issues that they disagree with, with this one being the last straw, so to speak. In other words they were already on their way out. And if they do leave, where are they going to go, with their sincere testimony of the gospel? What other church has all the correct doctrines and authority besides the LDS Church?
Antoni Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 7 hours ago, salgare said: Frankly I expected this Givens to be leading towards acceptance of a non-historical BoM (which it is) I think you need to read/examine much more closely if you think Givens has a non-historical view of the BoM. I would also point you in the direction of Brant Gardner's work rather than just make blanket statements like you do above about the historicity of the BoM. Robert Smith's comments about looking into what has happened to other churches is also valid. I have personal experienced and academically studied this. I have faith that we will be ok, but will have plenty of tempests on this part of the Good Ship Zion's journey. Many are getting "sea sick" already and we've barely left port. In response to the OP. I tend to disagree, if you can't square your faith in Christ with his church then I think you certainly need to step back and work through it. The path of discipleship is all or nothing, remember Christ's warning to those that put their hand to plough but look back. Light, Love and Peace. 1
Guest Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 I stay because I know that the Church gives me the a structure needed to give me something to hold on to, to keep me from going off in a million directions. Also because and the center Prophets and Apostes. Not perfect men, and not a perfect world. As I age I see that as long as people are in the Church, there will be less than perfect moments. But I know that just as I lack perfection God can still work with me, just as with any in the Church. So many these days seek to sit in judgement of the Church, but refuse to point the eyes of criticism back at themselves. I once had a friend go on (what seemed like forever) about all the problems with his Ward and the Church. I then asked him what is he doing to make both the Church and his Ward better. God calls us all, and he calls us with all our weaknesses, because all he can find are flawed people...and I am one of them. Christ is mighty to, to make us mighty, and the Church is just one of the ways he uses to have us listen to our better angels, and throw of the chains that Satan uses to drag us into despair, thus rendering us paralyzed.
Ahab Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 14 hours ago, Glenn101 said: ...to those who are struggling with doubts and maybe the policy has pushed you to your limits, I urge you to hold on. To seek the truth of it all from the Lord. To not act rashly. Good advice, and I think the only thing you said that those with doubts will understand correctly. Contrary to popular belief in this world, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is (STILL) the only Church of Christ in this world. There is no other one to go to. So if you leave, you will be lost, but you will always be welcomed back as long as you know whose Church you would be coming back to, if you ever come back.
thesometimesaint Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 1 hour ago, consiglieri said: Something that makes you happy? Something that makes you fulfilled? Something that allows you to live a life true to who you really are? Something that allows you to grow spiritually? Something that allows you to progress? Something that allows you to think? Something that allows you freedom to express your opinion? Something that allows you to love others for who they really are instead of what they pretend to be? I find happiness in church, family, and friends. Being a good father fulfills me. I truly am a child of the most high God. I grow spiritually studying, pondering, and praying. I try to be and do a little better each day. Isn't that progressing? That is kinda hard to stop isn't it. No one has successfully tried to stop me from expressing my opinion. I would recommend they don't try. I have no idea as to what that means.
consiglieri Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 17 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: No one has successfully tried to stop me from expressing my opinion. I would recommend they don't try. I have no idea as to what that means. Then you must have only the "right" opinions.
volgadon Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 2 hours ago, consiglieri said: Something that makes you happy? Something that makes you fulfilled? Something that allows you to live a life true to who you really are? Something that allows you to grow spiritually? Something that allows you to progress? Something that allows you to think? Something that allows you freedom to express your opinion? Something that allows you to love others for who they really are instead of what they pretend to be? A kitschy Michael Jackson song about people staring into reflective glass things comes to mind. 1
salgare Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, Antoni said: I think you need to read/examine much more closely if you think Givens has a non-historical view of the BoM. Once again, at this point I can only point to my upthread link with questions to Robert and my discussions so far with Mark about his review of Givens latest(?) book. What exactly is this New Mormonism, what of the diversification of apologetics that we have witnessed even from this board. Does this at all relate to MI diversifying from a straight Ancient BoM foundation? I have a lot of questions about this new movement. As to the historicity issue, I used the word taboo as far as anyone actually being willing to go their yet. It's likely an excommunicatable offense in some locals at this time. But Mark has mentioned and I believe Robert agrees that this philosophy has plenty of room for members on both sides since there is NO orthodoxy, its all about orthopraxy with the Temple Recommend list being the standard of this orthopraxy. "Robert Smith's comments about looking into what has happened to other churches is also valid. I have personal experienced and academically studied this." As I mentioned upthread, I don't know what other churches to look to or what problems you are referring to that you have found with them. Please bring them into the discussion so that I can get an idea of what you are talking about. "In response to the OP. I tend to disagree, if you can't square your faith in Christ with his church then I think you certainly need to step back and work through it. The path of discipleship is all or nothing, remember Christ's warning to those that put their hand to plough but look back." For those following Givens and suggesting serious doubters step away, how does that jive with the proposed TR orthopraxy? This is one thing that is so confusing to me about this movement and the talk of very liberal tolerance to any orthodoxy? In other words does not orthopraxy imply a culture/society with a big tolerant tent. I'm viewing (maybe in error) that responses like yours to the OP as a re-entrenchment to what I'm now starting to label existing Orthodox Culture for lack of a better term to use in these discussions. eta ... elsewhere I suggested three labels for purposes of discussion for the current diversity in I'm seeing in Mormonism 1. The current majority Correlated Culture 2. The New Culture Mormonism movment 3. The Snufferite like orthodox Culture Mormonism Edited January 30, 2016 by salgare
Robert F. Smith Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, consiglieri said: Something that makes you happy? Something that makes you fulfilled? Something that allows you to live a life true to who you really are? Something that allows you to grow spiritually? Something that allows you to progress? Something that allows you to think? Something that allows you freedom to express your opinion? Something that allows you to love others for who they really are instead of what they pretend to be? Ice cream and cake make me happy, temporarily, and then I have to suffer the consequences. Cynics like Diogenes and the Existentialists thought that there was no way out, and no reason to put on airs, while Hugh Nibley used to counter with his bright hope for the future (he told that to William Barrett, author of Irrational Man). The secret, I think, is in finding yourself as an individual, and then discovering how you may be integrated into the larger community -- without compromising your individual integrity. A difficult thing to do at best, but worth every effort expended to find it, and, like the bluebird of happiness, it may be right here at home, just outside your front door. The promise of Mormonism is that we keep our individual personality through all eternity, and that the gods and all creation have infinite variety. We take that with us when we go . . . Mormons can live their lives here hopefully, briskly, courageously, and with considerable élan. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUbx-AcDgXo , Edited January 30, 2016 by Robert F. Smith 2
consiglieri Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 7 minutes ago, volgadon said: A kitschy Michael Jackson song about people staring into reflective glass things comes to mind. I love that song. But then, who doesn't?
thesometimesaint Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 16 minutes ago, consiglieri said: Then you must have only the "right" opinions. My opinion is that my opinions are always right, but I'm entitled to change my opinions.
rodheadlee Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 2 hours ago, consiglieri said: Something that makes you happy? Something that makes you fulfilled? Something that allows you to live a life true to who you really are? Something that allows you to grow spiritually? Something that allows you to progress? Something that allows you to think? Something that allows you freedom to express your opinion? Something that allows you to love others for who they really are instead of what they pretend to be? Happy Trails! 1
volgadon Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 7 minutes ago, consiglieri said: I love that song. But then, who doesn't? A nasty, narrow-minded jade like myself. 1
rodheadlee Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 2 hours ago, consiglieri said: Something that makes you happy? Something that makes you fulfilled? Something that allows you to live a life true to who you really are? Something that allows you to grow spiritually? Something that allows you to progress? Something that allows you to think? Something that allows you freedom to express your opinion? Something that allows you to love others for who they really are instead of what they pretend to be? I forgot to ask and I have asked you this before with no answer, Where is this place? 2
Robert F. Smith Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 9 hours ago, salgare said: First of all, Mark mentioned that I had not actually responded to you and hence you were not notified and may be interested in responding. I've thrown out a few thoughts/questions in relationship to this William James / Alma 32 and Marks stated later analytic steps regarding his making a jump past the gold plates etc. Sorry I misunderstood you on that, but I would agree on that path as a very useful one. So we are on the same page. ........................................................... Frankly I expected this Givens/New Culture Mormonism to be leading towards acceptance of a non-historical BoM (which it is) and that I could use this to help dissuade my children from the church. I was surprised to see it reignite some hope in me, so yes I want to examine this much more closely. I still don't know what this New Culture Mormonism (a Givens approach?) is or what it means. The late Univ of Utah professor Sterling McMurrin (he was Pres Kennedy's U. S. Commissioner of Education) took a similar view of a non-historical BofM, but authored a couple of introductory books on Mormon theology and philosophy which you may find very helpful: McMurrin, Sterling M. The Philosophical Foundations of Mormon Theology (SLC: Univ. of Utah, 1959/ reprint 1979). McMurrin, Sterling M. Theological Foundations of the Mormon Religion (SLC: Univ. of Utah, 1965). In combined edition of The Theological Foundations of the Mormon Religion: And, the Philosophical Foundations of Mormon Theology, Signature Mormon Classics (SLC: Signature Books, 2000). What are some of these churches that have moved away from denominational foundations and what weaknesses do you see in them? It was not my impression that Unitarian type organizations would fit your "personal prophet" comment? ...................................................... I am referring to the "priesthood of the believer" so characteristic of Protestant christianity in general, and their epistemology of sola scriptura -- meaning sole dependence on Scriptural authority. Both these concepts have led to ever increasing numbers of Protestant denominations, everyone setting himself up as his own interpreter. Mormonism, on the other hand, is hierarchical in determining doctrine (like the Roman Catholics), and depends on continuing revelation and the Holy Ghost to determine truth. 2
salgare Posted January 30, 2016 Posted January 30, 2016 (edited) 13 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: I still don't know what this New Culture Mormonism (a Givens approach?) is or what it means. I suspect that Scott and JLHProf might, as far as it being far from their hearts and something they disagree with. One with a big paradigm shift from their own held beliefs. Out of three Cultures that I'm seeing here I'd suggest that possibly 1. Scott Lloyd represents the Correlated Culture Mormonism 3. JLHProf represents the old school Orthodox Culture Mormonism. 2. Mark represents the new school Orthoprax Culture Mormonism. eta I was inconsistent with the list order downthread ... numbers added Edited January 31, 2016 by salgare 1
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