Johnnie Cake Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 This past week there allegedly was a large Missionary Conference where in it was supposedly reported that church grown in 2015 will see a drop of nearly 70,000 convert baptisms from the 290,000 converts in 2014. While I understand the problems with commenting on speculation, rumor and innuendo, if true, this is a staggering collapse of convert baptisms, particularly in light of the increase of missionaries and would represent a nearly 62% drop since the high water mark in 1989 when the church had over 589,000 converts and a 24% drop in converts in just one year. If true, what is going on? Can anyone confirm or deny these numbers? Note to Mods: If this is an inappropriate topic, I apologize and feel free to delete. I'm just curious how to process this.
ALarson Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 (edited) Where was the conference held? I'm just wondering what your source is, thanks! Edited January 25, 2016 by ALarson spelling correction
Popular Post randyj Posted January 25, 2016 Popular Post Posted January 25, 2016 Just a thought....but I'm not sure why everyone gets anxious over these types of revelations...if they are in fact....fact. For me, it's a simple matter of "We share our message, folks have an opportunity to accept or reject". End of story. Some years more folks accept, some years they don't. How the numbers fluctuate has no bearing at all on the church's truth claims etc. As members, I believe...that when we hear news such as this, we just need to recommit ourselves to open our mouths and do our part. So there ya go. 8
Johnnie Cake Posted January 25, 2016 Author Posted January 25, 2016 (edited) 23 minutes ago, ALarson said: Where was the conference held? I'm just wondering what your source is, thanks! Honestly I saw it reported in the Mormon Stories closed FB group sponsored by John Dehlin, so take it with a grain of salt...up front I stated this is rumor and speculation Here is the FB post that got me wondering. Quote So, the missionaries spoke in our ward today, and one Elder claimed that convert baptisms were down 70,000 last year, and seemed somewhat distressed about it. Can anyone confirm, clarify or give more context? Evidentially it was a large regional missionary meeting for full time missionaries presided over by Elder Bednar...but I have no 1st hand confirmation Edited January 25, 2016 by Johnnie Cake
ALarson Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: Honestly I saw it reported in the Mormon Stories closed FB group sponsored by John Dehlin, so take it with a grain of salt...up front I stated this is rumor and speculation Thanks! It would be interesting to learn what John Dehlin's source is and more about the conference. I do have to wonder how the missionary work is really going now. I was talking to a member of our Stake Presidency yesterday and he told me that 9 missionaries have come home early from their missions within the last couple of months (from our stake). I asked if they were health related and he said they were all youth who went out at the younger age and then came home discouraged and depressed (for various reasons, I'm sure). He said the Stake President is very concerned. One thing that is good (from what I've seen) is that members are really dealing better now with any missionaries who come home early than many did in the past....that's a positive. Edited January 25, 2016 by ALarson spelling correction
Johnnie Cake Posted January 25, 2016 Author Posted January 25, 2016 4 minutes ago, ALarson said: Thanks! It would be interesting to learn what John Dehlin's source is and more about the conference. I do have to wonder how the missionary work is really going now. I was talking to a member of our Stake Presidency yesterday and he told me that 9 missionaries have come home early from their missions within the last couple of months (from our stake). I asked if they were health related and he said they were all youth who went out at the younger age and then came home discouraged and depressed (for various reasons, I'm sure). He said the Stake President is very concerned. One thing that is good (from what I've seen) is that members are really dealing better now with any missionaries who come home early than many did in the past....that's a positive. The source was not through John Dehlin...but one of the posters in the Mormon Stories FB group
Johnnie Cake Posted January 25, 2016 Author Posted January 25, 2016 27 minutes ago, randyj said: Just a thought....but I'm not sure why everyone gets anxious over these types of revelations...if they are in fact....fact. For me, it's a simple matter of "We share our message, folks have an opportunity to accept or reject". End of story. Some years more folks accept, some years they don't. How the numbers fluctuate has no bearing at all on the church's truth claims etc. As members, I believe...that when we hear news such as this, we just need to recommit ourselves to open our mouths and do our part. So there ya go. As an old school missionary who knocked on more door than I'd like to remember...literally spending every waking hour tracting door to door from 9AM to 9PM. I think something is being lost on this new generation. There was strength in being able to do all of that tracting. And while my comps and I were only able to track out 1 new member that came directly from all of that tracting...I do not have a single regret form my missionary experience 2
The Nehor Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 At the water cooler today I overheard that China is planning to build submarine troop carriers and are going to invade Los Angeles. I just wonder how everyone feels about this.
Calm Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 (edited) http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865645882/Leaders-interact-with-missionaries-in-video-segments-at-Worldwide-Missionary-Broadcast.html?pg=all Perhaps Scott can tell us if the numbers reported in the OP were an accurate representation of what was said. Edited January 25, 2016 by Calm 1
cinepro Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 (edited) On 1/25/2016 at 1:07 PM, Calm said: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865645882/Leaders-interact-with-missionaries-in-video-segments-at-Worldwide-Missionary-Broadcast.html?pg=all Perhaps Scott can tell us if the numbers reported in the OP were an accurate representation of what was said. Quote “Perhaps you have had the experience of people understanding clearly and simply the things that you teach, and when you leave, they become somewhat confused,” Elder Bednar continued. “That’s because the Holy Ghost is not there in such rich abundance as it was when you were with them. Or it might be because they searched for information about the Church on the internet and discovered a ton of stuff that we usually don't share with investigators.” A+ for being honest. Edit to be clear: the bolded part was added by me because I thought Elder Bednar's comment about people becoming "confused" after the missionaries left being attributable to the Holy Ghost leaving was ignoring the much more obvious and likely explanation that they become "confused" because they probably go to the internet to learn more and quickly find sites that share (accurate) information that confuses them when compared to what the missionaries were saying. I thought I worded it in such a way that it would be noticeable, and that people would find it odd and check the source in the link above and then get the joke about "A+ for being honest", but in retrospect I should have presented it differently. I suspected as much at the time, but was in a hurry. - CP Edited January 26, 2016 by cinepro 4
Sanpitch Posted January 25, 2016 Posted January 25, 2016 On this web site it's mentioned that total missionaries could/would drop to around 70,000. Has that been mistaken for something else? Or did I get the wrong picture? http://ldschurchgrowth.blogspot.com/
Johnnie Cake Posted January 26, 2016 Author Posted January 26, 2016 28 minutes ago, Sanpitch said: On this web site it's mentioned that total missionaries could/would drop to around 70,000. Has that been mistaken for something else? Or did I get the wrong picture? http://ldschurchgrowth.blogspot.com/ Could have been guess we'll find out in April when they release the actual numbers...but the quote that was posted was in relation to 70,000 fewer convert baptisms than 2014
Johnnie Cake Posted January 26, 2016 Author Posted January 26, 2016 1 hour ago, cinepro said: “Perhaps you have had the experience of people understanding clearly and simply the things that you teach, and when you leave, they become somewhat confused,” Elder Bednar continued. “That’s because the Holy Ghost is not there in such rich abundance as it was when you were with them. Or it might be because they searched for information about the Church on the internet and discovered a ton of stuff that we usually don't share with investigators.” A+ for being honest. Cinepro: Who is this quote from? I too applaud the honesty...
Scott Lloyd Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, Calm said: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865645882/Leaders-interact-with-missionaries-in-video-segments-at-Worldwide-Missionary-Broadcast.html?pg=all Perhaps Scott can tell us if the numbers reported in the OP were an accurate representation of what was said. I'm just now seeing this thread and was just about to comment on it when I saw your question. What I'm seeing in the OP, if it has reference to the Worldwide Missionary Broadcast that was covered in the link you presented (maybe it refers to a different "conference" or meeting that I'm not aware of; I suspect not) is an extremely garbled version of what was actually said in that broadcast, which I attended live. It reminds me of the old game "telephone" we used to play in school, in which a whispered message would get passed down the line from person to person, invariably ending up as a comical abberation of the original. What was said in that broadcast is that the current number of missionaries now stands at 75,000. What was not said, but what some in the media have made a point of noting, is that this number reflects a reduction of what the number was at the peak of the surge that followed the announcement of the change in missionary ages, when there were two cohorts of missionaries in the force, the younger ones who left at age 18 (or 19 for females) and the older ones who hadn't yet returned from their missions. That number peaked at nearly 90,000, dropped down to about 85,000 a year ago and has now leveled out at 75,000, up from the 68,000 total in place at the time the age changes were announced in 2012. All of this, of course, has been discussed in at least two other recent threads on this board. Edited January 26, 2016 by Scott Lloyd 4
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 Just now, Johnnie Cake said: Cinepro: Who is this quote from? I too applaud the honesty... Er, it's from Cinepro ... who no doubt is being honest from his perspective. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 (edited) 2 hours ago, cinepro said: A+ for being honest. At long last, sir, have you no ethics? You invented a sentence out of whole cloth and included as part of a quote purportedly coming from me. Not cool, even when done in jest. It's bald-faced dishonesty. I rarely report posts to the moderators, but I intend to do so in this case. Immediately. Perhaps you want to be a stand-up guy and remove the post before the moderators require you to do so. I guess we'll see. Edited January 26, 2016 by Scott Lloyd
Scott Lloyd Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 (edited) 6 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: Cinepro: Who is this quote from? I too applaud the honesty... Please see my last post. Cinepro took a quote from a newspaper article I wrote. Then he wrote an extra sentence and added it to the quote to make it appear it was part of the original. It was a dishonest and unethical thing to do. I have reported it to the moderators (something I rarely do). I have also demanded that he remove the post. We'll see whether or not he has the decency to do so. Edited January 26, 2016 by Scott Lloyd
Johnnie Cake Posted January 26, 2016 Author Posted January 26, 2016 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I'm just now seeing this thread and was just about to comment on it when I saw your question. What I'm seeing in the OP, if it has reference to the Worldwide Missionary Broadcast that was covered in the link you present (maybe it refers to a different "conference or meeting that I'm not aware of; I suspect not) is an extremely garbled version of what was actually said in that broadcast, which I attended live. It reminds me of the old game "telephone" we used to play in school, in which a whispered message would get passed down the line from person to person, invariably ending up as a comical abberation of the original. What was said in that broadcast is that the current number of missionaries now stands at 75,000. What was not said, but what some in the media have made a point of noting, is that this number reflects a reduction of what the number was at the peak of the surge that followed the announcement of the change in missionary ages, when there were two cohorts of missionaries in the force, the younger ones who left at age 18 (or 19 for females) and the older ones who hadn't yet returned from their missions. That number peaked at nearly 90,000, dropped down to about 85,000 a year ago and has now leveled out at 75,000, up from the 68,000 total in place at the time the age changes were announced in 2012. All of this, of course, has been discussed in at least two other recent threads on this board. So convert baptisms are up from last year Scott? My quote allegedly came for a missionary who spoke in a ward...where in he said that during a recent meeting he attended (It was assumed to be the same meeting you attended, but it could have been a different meeting) he was informed that annual convert baptisms was down 70,000 from last year. Now having said that I did not personally hear him state this... Here's alleged quote again Quote the missionaries spoke in our ward today, and one Elder claimed that convert baptisms were down 70,000 last year... But I do like your old game whisper game anaology...no reason not to believe that the hearer was half asleep as well...who knows until the numbers are officially released in April Edited January 26, 2016 by Johnnie Cake
Scott Lloyd Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Er, it's from Cinepro ... who no doubt is being honest from his perspective. It's not very honest to invent a statement out of whole cloth and make it appear that it came from someone else. Wouldn't you agree? Edited January 26, 2016 by Scott Lloyd
Scott Lloyd Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 3 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said: So convert baptisms are up from last year Scott? My quote allegedly came for a missionary who spoke in a ward...where in he said that during a recent meeting he attended (It was assumed to be the same meeting you attended, but it could have been a different meeting) he was informed that annual convert baptisms was down 70,000 from last year. Now having said that I did not personally hear him state this... Here's alleged quote again I don't recall such a statement in the Worldwide Missionary Broadcast I attended. Perhaps this was from another meeting that I'm not aware of. That's a possibility.
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: It's not very honest to invent a statement out of whole cloth and make it appear that it came from someone else Wait, you have a problem with someone making stuff up in order to backhandedly accuse an apostle of dishonesty??? Edited January 26, 2016 by Hamba Tuhan
Scott Lloyd Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 6 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Wait, you have a problem with someone making stuff up in order to accuse an apostle of dishonesty??? Yeah. Especially when it's made to appear that the falsehood came from me!
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 6 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I'll ask our Elders. I checked. The Elders said that nothing related to numbers of convert baptisms was raised in the worldwide missionary training meeting last week. 1
Avatar4321 Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 10 hours ago, Johnnie Cake said: This past week there allegedly was a large Missionary Conference where in it was supposedly reported that church grown in 2015 will see a drop of nearly 70,000 convert baptisms from the 290,000 converts in 2014. While I understand the problems with commenting on speculation, rumor and innuendo, if true, this is a staggering collapse of convert baptisms, particularly in light of the increase of missionaries and would represent a nearly 62% drop since the high water mark in 1989 when the church had over 589,000 converts and a 24% drop in converts in just one year. If true, what is going on? Can anyone confirm or deny these numbers? Note to Mods: If this is an inappropriate topic, I apologize and feel free to delete. I'm just curious how to process this. How about instead of gossiping over unfounded rumors we stick to the truth and keep the commandments
Recommended Posts