halconero Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 I thought this would be a fun esoteric exercise. So much of the board is devoted to sociopolitical issues that I thought it would be cool to have some conversation about some of the more unexplored doctrines and possible extrapolations thereof. The other night I was catching up with a friend I made on the mission, my first ward mission leader. We were talking about books we were reading, movies we had enjoyed recently, and I brought up how I was getting more and more into the hard science fiction of yore, including Clarke, Reynolds, Sagan and Asimov. I don't know if anybody has read it on here, but if you have about 10-15 minutes I'd recommend Isaac Asimov's short story "The Last Question" (http://multivax.com/last_question.html; or the audio version is on youtube <--- the audio version is actually really well done). It's very well laid out, explores Asimov's ideas regarding the development of humanity and human technology, and has one of the best endings out of any piece of fiction I've read. Relevant to this discussion though is Asimov's focus on the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics: that is that entropy inevitably increases within a closed system, and in our case, the universe. Entropy basically means that there is a next expenditure of energy and matter as reactions throughout the universe occur. Not that either are destroyed, but as they are transformed and used they expand further apart until there is an inevitable heat death of the universe wherein no reactions can take place. It's a law that is generally accepted and for which we have projections supported by evidence. It was here that my friend, an even bigger science nerd than I am, jumped in with his notions regarding the laws of the Kingdoms of Glory, what has been said about creation by the prophets, and how the laws of physics might function based on the same. He's careful at stating these as anything but a mixture of speculation, feelings, and promptings, and usually only shares them in the right atmosphere and place. I thought it would be cool to share them here and get other people's thoughts on the matter. From what we know from scripture the makeup of the universe and creation is Intelligence. It is the invigorating energy of life and the universe, it forms the base elements of the universe (D&C 93:29-37). Under certain conditions can be organized into higher forms (Abraham 3:21-22). There are several accounts of Joseph Smith's exploration of Genesis 1 which largely agree with one another and which can be found here: http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/discourse-7-april-1844-as-reported-by-william-clayton&p=5#!/paperSummary/discourse-7-april-1844-as-reported-by-william-clayton&p=6 The most important part of Joseph's quote is his declaration that God did not create, but organized the eternal elements out of chaos into the universe and all therein. What's interesting about this is that while it is in one manner an early explanation of the 1st Law of Thermodynamics (Energy cannot be created or destroyed in a reaction), this organization and the ultimate exaltation of God's children seems to directly contradict the 2nd Law I previously defined above. In the organization of God's children he actually increased order and form in the universe. If this is the case then Creation truly is a divine miracle. Yet we are told that miracles are not the aberration of law, but a manifestation of a higher order of it. It is possible that a decrease in entropy and an increase in order, the act of God in creation and the destiny of God's exalted children and even this world, is thus an operation of Celestial Thermodynamics and Physics. That not only are the laws referred to in D&C 88 regarding the commandments and covenants of the Kingdoms of Glory, but the laws of existence. It seemed like a neat explanation: that entropy increases in a telestial state (our current state), and decreases in a celestial one, but what really tied it together for me as something which felt possible was his application of this same hypothesis to a Terrestrial state. There is some indication by prophets and apostles (namely Bruce R. McConkie) that at the time of its material creation the Earth, or at least the Garden existed in a Terrestrial state. 2 Nephi 22 states that prior to the fall this was the condition of the Garden: "And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end." In this state there was neither a decrease in entropy, nor an increase. Entropy was in stasis. Mortality, including death, decay, the degradation and mutation of genes, and the increase of entropy is actually underlined by a state of Telestial Thermodynamics, over which there are Terrestrial and Celestial Laws. The speculation and conversation continued from there, and one point going down a darker path which would serve to distract from this conversation. To be honest, I'm not entirely sure what I think of this, and how it jives with current understandings of other scientific and doctrinal topics. Even so it was a fun talk, and I think it would be a fun change to talk about something esoteric such as this. 3
thesometimesaint Posted January 21, 2016 Posted January 21, 2016 Entropy works. What the Gods do is up to them.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 6 hours ago, halconero said: ....................................................................................... ............................................... the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics: that is that entropy inevitably increases within a closed system, and in our case, the universe. Entropy basically means that there is a next expenditure of energy and matter as reactions throughout the universe occur. Not that either are destroyed, but as they are transformed and used they expand further apart until there is an inevitable heat death of the universe wherein no reactions can take place. It's a law that is generally accepted and for which we have projections supported by evidence. ............................................................. ................................ the 1st Law of Thermodynamics (Energy cannot be created or destroyed in a reaction), this organization and the ultimate exaltation of God's children seems to directly contradict the 2nd Law .......................... .......................It is possible that a decrease in entropy and an increase in order, the act of God in creation and the destiny of God's exalted children and even this world, is thus an operation of Celestial Thermodynamics and Physics. That not only are the laws referred to in D&C 88 regarding the commandments and covenants of the Kingdoms of Glory, but the laws of existence. ............................................ entropy increases in a telestial state (our current state), and decreases in a celestial one, but what really tied it together for me as something which felt possible was his application of this same hypothesis to a Terrestrial state. ............................. ............................ In this state there was neither a decrease in entropy, nor an increase. Entropy was in stasis. Mortality, including death, decay, the degradation and mutation of genes, and the increase of entropy is actually underlined by a state of Telestial Thermodynamics, over which there are Terrestrial and Celestial Laws. ..................................................... The first and second laws of thermodynamics do not contradict one another in any way. The total amount of energy and matter in the universe (or multiverse) is always the same, even if they can be changed one to the other, and even if every subatomic particle is spread evenly throughout the universe (in heat death). God always uses already available materials and energy, and his creations are always from already extant chaos.
halconero Posted January 22, 2016 Author Posted January 22, 2016 I actually didn't say that the 1st Law of Thermodynamics contradicts the 2nd. What I did say is that the decrease of entropy in a closed system seems to be a higher mansifestatiom of thermodynamics. I'm not arguing that energy is destroyed in a repeating state, but that through reactions it eventually degrades into chaos. Concepts such as resurrection, exaltation, and the organizing/creative power seem to operate on a level of physics which either mitigates or directly reverses this increase in entropy. The reason why Asimov write's the ending he does for "The Last Question," is because he understood that the ability to reverse entropy would indeed be miraculous. Hence the argument for Celestial Thermodynamics (the divine act of a net decrease in entropy and an increase in order and form), Terrestrial Thermodynamics (Entropic Stasis), and Telestial Thermodynamics (Increase in Entropy and Chaos with eventual heat death). The 1st Law of Thermodynamics serves as a constant. It's a matter of whether that law is operated upon in an organizing or entropic manner. Classic example of how net entropy still increases even as we try to organizing matter and energy: You build a house. You are providing order to the structure. Entropy still increases because the energy expended in producing the nails, the wood, the physical labour, etc still contributes to the overall heat death of the universe. Yet in the creation it seems as though the Elohim are able to provide a net increase in order, moving upon the chaotic materials, energy, and elements (ie the Intelligences) in order to create.
Ahab Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 I can see all things in those terms, I think. Things stay the same on their own (a stasis state), or they degenerate on their own (entropy), or we do something to add something to something (creation). I don't see the universe as a closed system, though, but rather eternal. 1
thesometimesaint Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 The universe is expanding, and entropy works. What the Gods do is up to them.
stemelbow Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 How do we consider the universe as a closed system when we can't define it's limits? 1
Nofear Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 19 hours ago, halconero said: It seemed like a neat explanation: that entropy increases in a telestial state (our current state), and decreases in a celestial one, but what really tied it together for me as something which felt possible was his application of this same hypothesis to a Terrestrial state. There is some indication by prophets and apostles (namely Bruce R. McConkie) that at the time of its material creation the Earth, or at least the Garden existed in a Terrestrial state. 2 Nephi 22 states that prior to the fall this was the condition of the Garden: "And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end." The speculation and conversation continued from there, and one point going down a darker path which would serve to distract from this conversation. To be honest, I'm not entirely sure what I think of this, and how it jives with current understandings of other scientific and doctrinal topics. Even so it was a fun talk, and I think it would be a fun change to talk about something esoteric such as this. I'm reasonably confident the Book of Mormon prophets didn't know anything about thermodynamics and none of their statements have the intent of being relevant to it. Some particular verse might be interpreted as being consistent with such and such scientific principle and even be accurate but it is an interpretation that strains the intent of the verse and I'd generally recommend against this kind of exegesis. Recommendation aside, it is sometimes fun to speculate. And speaking of speculation I happen to subscribe to the concept of libertarian free will. Most of the universe may be deterministic but at least part of us isn't (no matter which kingdom we happen to be part of). This kind of free will breaks the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics and I'm ok with that. The vast majority of the universe would still be obey the laws.
thesometimesaint Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 (edited) The best guess we have so far is that the universe is 100 billion light years across, and expanding. Space itself is expanding, so while it seems self contradictory it is expanding into nothing. Edited January 22, 2016 by thesometimesaint 1
Ahab Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 2 hours ago, thesometimesaint said: The universe is expanding, and entropy works. What the Gods do is up to them. No, the universe itself is not expanding and you have no evidence that it is getting or has ever gotten bigger. What you can see are things moving within the universe and that you can see more of it as you keep looking. Anything contrary to that is conjecture, not science.
Ahab Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said: The best guess we have so far is that the universe is 100 billion light years across, and expanding. Space itself is expanding, so while it seems self contradictory it is expanding into nothing. Guess work in science, you say? Guess again if you think space itself expands.
SamIam Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 21 hours ago, halconero said: The most important part of Joseph's quote is his declaration that God did not create, but organized the eternal elements out of chaos into the universe and all therein. What's interesting about this is that while it is in one manner an early explanation of the 1st Law of Thermodynamics (Energy cannot be created or destroyed in a reaction), this organization and the ultimate exaltation of God's children seems to directly contradict the 2nd Law I previously defined above. In the organization of God's children he actually increased order and form in the universe. If this is the case then Creation truly is a divine miracle. Yet we are told that miracles are not the aberration of law, but a manifestation of a higher order of it. It is possible that a decrease in entropy and an increase in order, the act of God in creation and the destiny of God's exalted children and even this world, is thus an operation of Celestial Thermodynamics and Physics. That not only are the laws referred to in D&C 88 regarding the commandments and covenants of the Kingdoms of Glory, but the laws of existence.... ...2 Nephi 22 states that prior to the fall this was the condition of the Garden: "And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end." Following is an interesting quote that I ran into a few years ago when considering upon the same things: Quote He (Joseph Smith) was the first in this age to teach "substantialism", the eternity of matter, that no part or particle of the great universe could become annihilated or destroyed; that light and life and spirit were one; that all light and heat are the "Glory of God", which is his power, that fills the "immensity of space", and is the life of all things, and permeates with latent life, and heat, every particle of which all worlds are composed; that light or spirit, and matter, are the two first great primary principles of the universe, or of Being; that they are self-existent, co-existent, indestructible, and eternal, and from these two elements both our spirits and our bodies were formulated, and he gave us to understand that there were twelve kingdoms, or planets, revolving around our solar system, to which the Lord gave an equal division of His time or ministry and that now was His time to again visit the earth. He taught that all systems of worlds were in revolution, the lesser around the greater. (Benjamin F. Johnson, Letter to George F. Gibbs, 1903) In my considerations of 2 Nephi. It my mind it was not so much that they remained free from entropy as the focal point but that created in the presence of God, from whose presence is the light and heat as defined in the above quote, in God's presence, He provided the source of power which sustains all of his creations which remain consistent with the laws of the kingdom in which they were created. Thus, for his presence, they remain free from entropy. In the fall and removed from the conditions that define that kingdom and removed from the continuous presence of the particular pure source of light and heat that sustained that kingdom, entropy ensues and, well, the rest is ...the second estate. 3
thesometimesaint Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 2 hours ago, Ahab said: Guess work in science, you say? Guess again if you think space itself expands. A guess not in the literal sense, but as in something we don't know for sure. Space is expanding. SEE http://www.universetoday.com/107142/is-everything-in-the-universe-expanding/
Ahab Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 5 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said: A guess not in the literal sense, but as in something we don't know for sure. Space is expanding. SEE http://www.universetoday.com/107142/is-everything-in-the-universe-expanding/ Silly argument, comparing the universe to a loaf of bread. The universe has no equal comparison because every other place is limited in both space and the matter in it. Your error is in thinking that the space the universe is "expanding" into wasn't already a part of the universe. The same universe, not a part of some other universe the universe is expanding into.
thesometimesaint Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 It is a comparison. A model to graphically show what is a hard concept to understand intuitively It is tied into the Big Bang Theory. SEE http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/according-to-the-big-bang-1999-10-21/
Ahab Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 The error in the Big Bang theory is due to not looking at things from the proper perspective. From a great distance objects or collections of objects appear to be very small and then as they get closer and closer they seem to get bigger and bigger. So while from one perspective all we see around us now once appeared to be very small and then get bigger, from another perspective much closer to all that we see now would have looked like what we are seeing now. Comparing a finite sized object to something of infinite size is not a good comparison, though. And there is only one place where all other places exist, which is what I call the uni-verse. 1
halconero Posted January 22, 2016 Author Posted January 22, 2016 (edited) You're error Ahab in defining the universe solely as space, when it is the composition of space, time and contents, contents being defined as energy and matter. It's like trying to define cold as a thing when it's actually the absence of a thing: heat. Empty space by itself is not the universe, and spaces without the presence of either energy or matter are not included within it. So while space is limitless, the universe itself still operates with a closed system, closed not because of limited space but because of chemical reactions. EDIT: Also...I should point out that if the Universe is Eternal, that actually makes it an Isolated Thermodynamic system rather than an open one. Isolated because its eternal nature in both space and time means that there is no outside "surrounding" with which to exchange either matter or energy. Edited January 22, 2016 by halconero 1
halconero Posted January 22, 2016 Author Posted January 22, 2016 4 hours ago, Nofear said: I'm reasonably confident the Book of Mormon prophets didn't know anything about thermodynamics and none of their statements have the intent of being relevant to it. Some particular verse might be interpreted as being consistent with such and such scientific principle and even be accurate but it is an interpretation that strains the intent of the verse and I'd generally recommend against this kind of exegesis. Recommendation aside, it is sometimes fun to speculate. And speaking of speculation I happen to subscribe to the concept of libertarian free will. Most of the universe may be deterministic but at least part of us isn't (no matter which kingdom we happen to be part of). This kind of free will breaks the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics and I'm ok with that. The vast majority of the universe would still be obey the laws. I disagree to an extent. Abraham is a prime example of an attempt by a prophet to explain and elaborate upon the mechanics of time, space, and energy. Where I agree is that Lehi wasn't particularly concerned with the mechanics of entropic stasis (or the constant increase in order/decrease in entropy provided by the presence of God as another poster posited). That being said his doctrine is concerned with a stasis of existence which seemed to exist in the Garden state, something which would have a scientific explanation even if Lehi wasn't explaining it. In general, this kind of exegesis isn't something that I would practice in Sunday School, at Church, or even at home for any particular length of time. Even so, I'm a firm believer that part of our exaltation includes coming to an understanding of Celestial mechanics, physics, and thermodynamics. I don't believe that infrequent study of discovered science in combination with scripture is a particularly bad thing. 1
thesometimesaint Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 51 minutes ago, Ahab said: The error in the Big Bang theory is due to not looking at things from the proper perspective. From a great distance objects or collections of objects appear to be very small and then as they get closer and closer they seem to get bigger and bigger. So while from one perspective all we see around us now once appeared to be very small and then get bigger, from another perspective much closer to all that we see now would have looked like what we are seeing now. Comparing a finite sized object to something of infinite size is not a good comparison, though. And there is only one place where all other places exist, which is what I call the uni-verse. It has nothing to do with perspective. Energy moving towards us Blue Shifts, while energy moving away from Red Shift. SEE
RevTestament Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 On 1/21/2016 at 1:04 PM, halconero said: I thought this would be a fun esoteric exercise. So much of the board is devoted to sociopolitical issues that I thought it would be cool to have some conversation about some of the more unexplored doctrines and possible extrapolations thereof. The other night I was catching up with a friend I made on the mission, my first ward mission leader. We were talking about books we were reading, movies we had enjoyed recently, and I brought up how I was getting more and more into the hard science fiction of yore, including Clarke, Reynolds, Sagan and Asimov. I don't know if anybody has read it on here, but if you have about 10-15 minutes I'd recommend Isaac Asimov's short story "The Last Question" (http://multivax.com/last_question.html; or the audio version is on youtube <--- the audio version is actually really well done). It's very well laid out, explores Asimov's ideas regarding the development of humanity and human technology, and has one of the best endings out of any piece of fiction I've read. Relevant to this discussion though is Asimov's focus on the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics: that is that entropy inevitably increases within a closed system, and in our case, the universe. Entropy basically means that there is a next expenditure of energy and matter as reactions throughout the universe occur. Not that either are destroyed, but as they are transformed and used they expand further apart until there is an inevitable heat death of the universe wherein no reactions can take place. It's a law that is generally accepted and for which we have projections supported by evidence. It was here that my friend, an even bigger science nerd than I am, jumped in with his notions regarding the laws of the Kingdoms of Glory, what has been said about creation by the prophets, and how the laws of physics might function based on the same. He's careful at stating these as anything but a mixture of speculation, feelings, and promptings, and usually only shares them in the right atmosphere and place. I thought it would be cool to share them here and get other people's thoughts on the matter. From what we know from scripture the makeup of the universe and creation is Intelligence. It is the invigorating energy of life and the universe, it forms the base elements of the universe (D&C 93:29-37). Under certain conditions can be organized into higher forms (Abraham 3:21-22). There are several accounts of Joseph Smith's exploration of Genesis 1 which largely agree with one another and which can be found here: http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/discourse-7-april-1844-as-reported-by-william-clayton&p=5#!/paperSummary/discourse-7-april-1844-as-reported-by-william-clayton&p=6 The most important part of Joseph's quote is his declaration that God did not create, but organized the eternal elements out of chaos into the universe and all therein. What's interesting about this is that while it is in one manner an early explanation of the 1st Law of Thermodynamics (Energy cannot be created or destroyed in a reaction), this organization and the ultimate exaltation of God's children seems to directly contradict the 2nd Law I previously defined above. In the organization of God's children he actually increased order and form in the universe. If this is the case then Creation truly is a divine miracle. Yet we are told that miracles are not the aberration of law, but a manifestation of a higher order of it. It is possible that a decrease in entropy and an increase in order, the act of God in creation and the destiny of God's exalted children and even this world, is thus an operation of Celestial Thermodynamics and Physics. That not only are the laws referred to in D&C 88 regarding the commandments and covenants of the Kingdoms of Glory, but the laws of existence. It seemed like a neat explanation: that entropy increases in a telestial state (our current state), and decreases in a celestial one, but what really tied it together for me as something which felt possible was his application of this same hypothesis to a Terrestrial state. There is some indication by prophets and apostles (namely Bruce R. McConkie) that at the time of its material creation the Earth, or at least the Garden existed in a Terrestrial state. 2 Nephi 22 states that prior to the fall this was the condition of the Garden: "And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end." In this state there was neither a decrease in entropy, nor an increase. Entropy was in stasis. Mortality, including death, decay, the degradation and mutation of genes, and the increase of entropy is actually underlined by a state of Telestial Thermodynamics, over which there are Terrestrial and Celestial Laws. The speculation and conversation continued from there, and one point going down a darker path which would serve to distract from this conversation. To be honest, I'm not entirely sure what I think of this, and how it jives with current understandings of other scientific and doctrinal topics. Even so it was a fun talk, and I think it would be a fun change to talk about something esoteric such as this. Hey, just wanted to give u some luv, cuz Asimov was my very favorite author. I absolutely loved his writing, and sought it out, which I can't really say for anyone else. On the issue of science and God tho, my contribution is that God doesn't seem to operate within the parameters of any known physics - not that He operates contrary to physics - but that His abilities far exceed our knowledge of physics, etc. I don't believe we come even close to an inkling of understanding the power of the Father. Somehow I just don't link the creation story of Adam to the fall of the whole universe into a state of entropy, but it is an interesting thought. 2
Ahab Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, halconero said: You're error Ahab in defining the universe solely as space, when it is the composition of space, time and contents, contents being defined as energy and matter. It's like trying to define cold as a thing when it's actually the absence of a thing: heat. Empty space by itself is not the universe, and spaces without the presence of either energy or matter are not included within it. So while space is limitless, the universe itself still operates with a closed system, closed not because of limited space but because of chemical reactions. EDIT: Also...I should point out that if the Universe is Eternal, that actually makes it an Isolated Thermodynamic system rather than an open one. Isolated because its eternal nature in both space and time means that there is no outside "surrounding" with which to exchange either matter or energy. When I said I consider the universe to be the one place where all other (limited and smaller) spaces exist I was also considering everything in all space to be part of the universe too. Sorry if my wording caused you to think I wasn't including everything. And don't let the word all throw you off, either, because I'm talking about a place that is infinite. And you think isolated is a good word to describe what is eternal, do you? Isolated from what, are you thinking? I'm seeing it as totally open and inclusive of everything. Edited January 22, 2016 by Ahab typo
Ahab Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said: It has nothing to do with perspective. Energy moving towards us Blue Shifts, while energy moving away from Red Shift. SEE Tell me what you think you would see if you were very near the most distant object you can now see in the universe, please. I envision seeing just as much on the other side of all that as we can now see between here and there, but not the same ones. Different galaxies, nebulas, stars, etc. Perspective has everything to do with what can be seen.
Jeanne Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 I have read all this and my answer is yes. ????? You guys are just too smart..lets talk cookies! 2
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