Creation, Thermodynamics, and Levels of Law

[halconero]

3 hours ago, Ahab said:

And you think isolated is a good word to describe what is eternal,  do you?  Isolated from what, are you thinking? I'm seeing it as totally open and inclusive of everything. 

We're somewhat speaking past each other because from what I'm gathering you're using the term "isolated" in the colloquial sense, whereas I'm using a very specific term applied to thermodynamics.

It might help to start off with what is a system within thermodynamics, and the different types of systems.

At its simplest a thermodynamic system is just quantified matter. The quantified matter of the desk which my laptop sits on is a system. The watch sitting on it is a system, as is the lamp. All three together can be classified as a system as well. It's just a sum total of quantified matter. Everything outside the system is classified as "surrounding." So if I count the lamp, desk, and watch into one system, then the chair, printer and myself around it would be the "surrounding." We're not part of the system, but outside of it.

Now, there are 3 types of systems within thermodynamics:

- Open: Energy and Matter can pass outside the system to the surrounding. A good example of this would be a galaxy. All the quantifiable matter within the galaxy would be the system. Both energy and matter can pass outside the galaxy to other galaxies. The system is open. In fact, for a system to be open it has to have limitations placed upon it by definition. That may seem confusing and atypical, but think of open as meaning "It has an exit and an entrance."

- Closed: Energy can pass outside the system to the surrounding, in the forms of work and heat energy. Matter cannot. A classic example of a closed system is a piston. The matter contained therein cannot leave, but the heat and work generated can.

- Isolated: Neither energy, nor matter pass outside the system to a surrounding. This is where your definition of the universe as being infinite and eternal comes into play. If the universe is eternally expansive and infinite then there by definition cannot be a "surrounding" to which either energy or matter can pass. This is what makes a system open or closed, the presence of a "surrounding" something to which matter/energy can pass out of the system. An isolated system can be inclusive of everything therein. It can be vibrant, active, creative, and moving. The only thing that makes is isolated is it being a unique system wherein reactions, the transformation and change in matter and energy, take place, without a loss of energy to another system. The Universe under your Eternal and Infinite definition is Isolated specifically because it is limitless, there is no "surrounding." It has no exit/entrance because there is nothing to exit to or enter from. Thermodynamically it is unique.

I make no claim to say that this is what the Lord is referring to in D&C 93:30, but it does serve as a good metaphor for a thermodynamic isolate:

 30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

 God places an intelligence within a sphere, or what I'll call a system. Within that system it can move, act, and interact freely. Yet it does not bounce around from one sphere (or system) to another. The sphere is an isolate in that sense because the intelligence therein pertains to it.

So when you see me saying that something is a Thermodynamic isolate, don't think that means it isn't inclusive. In fact, it is very inclusive. It just means that by its limitlessness and eternal nature things pertain to it, and in fact, this is what can facilitate entropy. Heat and energy don't leave the system (the universe), but become so uniformly distributed that no reactions can take place and existence essentially ceases to be as nothing can act or be acted upon. My proposal is that under Celestial Thermodynamics matter and energy can be acted upon in a way which increases order and decreases entropy within a specific sphere (isolated system, or if you prefer, a specific measure of dominion and authority). Terrestrial thermodynamics provides a possible entropic stasis. Under mortal conditions, otherwise known as Telestial Law, there is a steady decrease in order and increase in chaotic entropy. All this awesome action can still occur in a vibrant, awesome, and infinite range of authority.

 

[halconero]

4 hours ago, Jeanne said:

I have read all this and my answer is yes.   ?????  You guys are just too smart..lets talk cookies!

Okay.

An open thermodynamic system is like a pan of freshly baked cookies which can pass heat and cookies from the pan to mouths of children too impatient to wait, thereby scalding their mouths and requiring milk.

A closed thermodynamic system is one where the pan comes out of the heaven, but a very strict mom prevents the removal of the cookies while they cool. The kids get close to the pan to smell the cookies, and can feel the heat and almost taste them, but no cookies are touched because they know that means a timeout.

An isolated thermodynamic system is one which includes the oven. The pan stays in the oven (which is turned off) to maintain its heat with the cookies on them so they stay fresh and warm.  The pan is the entire world and state of existence for the cookies.

Basically, overtime in a closed or isolated pan, the cookies will begin to crumble and the pan will begin to cool as heat becomes evenly distributed across the whole oven. Nothing can stop this normally.

God, the cook, somehow figured out a way to use the existing chaotic materials and energy, such as flour, butter, sugar, and eggs to create greater order (cookies) out of something. It is suggested by the Gospel that his exalted children, the apprentice cooks, will learn how to do this too. Not only that, but they'll live as cooks forever.

Edited January 23, 2016 by halconero

[halconero]

4 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Hey, just wanted to give u some luv, cuz Asimov was my very favorite author. I absolutely loved his writing, and sought it out, which I can't really say for anyone else. 

On the issue of science and God tho, my contribution is that God doesn't seem to operate within the parameters of any known physics - not that He operates contrary to physics - but that His abilities far exceed our knowledge of physics, etc. I don't believe we come even close to an inkling of understanding the power of the Father.

Somehow I just don't link the creation story of Adam to the fall of the whole universe into a state of entropy, but it is an interesting thought.

Asimov is a phenomenal writer. I'm currently rereading I, Robot at the moment.

I should start by saying that I don't expect anyone here to accept this as doctrine by any stretch. I'm just not that engaged with a good portion of the dialogue regarding sociopolitical stuff, and enjoy more discussions of this type.

The fascinating things is that one of the points I've been trying to make is encompassed in your 2nd paragraph. In terms of God's ability to move, communicate, create and act we don't know the parameters of his physics, neither do we have an inkling of it. What we do know from what some of the prophets have said regarding him is that God can create order and higher form out of chaos.

I would say that the Creation Story of Adam doesn't coincide with the "fall of the whole universe into a state of entropy," but I believe that the Fall of Adam coincides with such a description.

[deli_llama]

12 hours ago, stemelbow said:

How do we consider the universe as a closed system when we can't define it's limits? 

Or, how can we consider the universe as a closed system when it contains consciousness? Consciousness can break closed systems. 

[Nofear]

On 1/22/2016 at 3:26 PM, halconero said:

I disagree to an extent. Abraham is a prime example of an attempt by a prophet to explain and elaborate upon the mechanics of time, space, and energy.

I would use Abraham as a prime example of the very abuses I mentioned. Indeed, I align much more closely with this perspective:

And I Saw the Stars – The Book of Abraham and Ancient Geocentric Astronomy by John Gee, William J. Hamblin, and Daniel C. Petersen.

[thesometimesaint]

I think we get ourselves into trouble when we posit Stone-Bronze Age stories onto modern science. That being said I have no problem with God, just some of the things we mortals claim about him.