Are There Valid Reasons to Leave the Church?

[jcake]

I know two people who, for reasons I understand, left the church who were not sinning in any way that would precipitate it.  One experienced such harsh and unkind treatment from some unusually mean peers, (I witnessed it) through their youth, then, years later when repenting from something fairly minor and trying to become active, was terribly betrayed and misused by a stake president.     The Stake president came through with flying colors, only to completely trash the victim to  make himself seem less guilty. This Stake President even called the victim's parents, living at a distance and who were active, and outed the privately confessed sin, knowing this would cause terrible difficulty for the victim. The victim was an adult over 21 years of age, and never became anti-mormon, but can't face the misery that has resulted from  activity in the church.  Forgiving doesn't necessarily require that you go back to situations that cause terrible grief and unhappiness.  My belief is that God will certainly understand the need for this person to stay away from the church.  To their credit, the parents reported the breach of confidence to the proper authorities, still, nothing was done to rectify things. While we know that this leader acted outside the bounds we usually see and expect from good church leaders, it is still difficult for someone who has been burned so badly, to put their hand back on the stove when they don't know if the burners are hot.

As to the temple wedding restrictions for non-member or recommend holding families,  my two cents is that that most kind and loving and missionary oriented way to deal with this, is to have a simple, beautiful room in the waiting area of the temple, where a civil marriage could be performed, then, the couple and those eligible to attend the sealing could leave to do that, while those who wait could be given an explanation of the meaning and importance of the sealing.  Since denying the possibility a civil marriage just prior to a sealing is not doctrinal, and the determination of whether this is allowed seems to be dictated by the requirements of local government,  I believe that doing it this way would soften the hearts of many, and create greater feelings of peace and goodwill between all participating.

 

[Cold Steel]

1 hour ago, salgare said:

They have my posterity imprisoned Cold Steel.

What??? How?  Are you LDS? 

 

1 hour ago, consiglieri said:

This is nonsense. The strange thing is that I used to believe the same thing. Until I found out for myself that one can, in fact, leave the church and grow spiritually. It is frequently a necessity.

Well, we'll have to wait and see how it works out. If you can do it, more power to you and I really do wish you the best. You've said you believe there are many ways to God and that you no longer believe in the exclusivity of Mormonism. Do I have that right? If so, what are your views of Joseph Smith's claims to receiving the priesthood keys? If he received the keys of the kingdom (given also to Peter) as he said, then doesn't that imply those keys are needed to baptize, confer the gift of the Holy Spirit and the priesthood, do work for the dead and so forth? And how would other sects have those keys? And what are your views of the Book of Mormon? 

 

58 minutes ago, consiglieri said:

Except with threats of eternal damnation and loss of family . . .

The threats, as you call them, are outlined in scripture given in the early days of the church. It's not something we made up. The rules and regulations were given in the same manner that the early covenants were given to Moses. And there were a number of rebellions against him even after the ground opened up and swallowed some of them. After witnessing a supernatural event of the earth opening up and swallowing a number of the rebellious, the people told Moses and Aaron, "ye have killed the people of the Lord!" This made the Lord so angry that He determined to destroy the people through a plague, but Moses intervened and made atonement, causing the Lord to spare them. My point is that regardless of what the Lord does, there will be detractors. If our revelations are from God, then His servants can't be blamed for their content or implied "threats." If people fail to live up to the covenants in the temple, yes, they will lose their families and suffer damnation (which is the loss of their promised blessings). Thus, one can submit to God or reject Him. But His people can't be blamed for explaining what's been revealed to them. 

 

[salgare]

36 minutes ago, Cold Steel said:

What??? How?  Are you LDS?

Depending on who you are; I'm a less active, anti-mormon, critic, jack-mormon, apostate who's name is still on the records of the Church.

My wife of 35 years is a TBM chapel Mormon (we don't talk religion much, with out a fight anyway).

My three adult married children are TBM.  Two internet Mormons, four chapel Mormons.

My six young grand children (three boys, three girls) are being indoctrinated chapel Mormons.

btw, I self identify as critic and/or apostate.  I was always taught that doubting an General Authority was the first step to apostasy.  So I'm apostate to the Church and the FP/Q12.  I find anti-Mormon offensive but don't tend to make a big deal over it.  Less active and jack-Mormon surely fit.

Edited January 7, 2016 by salgare

[rodheadlee]

9 hours ago, Gray said:

If someone no longer believes in Islam, it might be expected that they might try pork, just to give it a go. It does not follow then that their motivation for leaving was so they could sin (eat pork). 

There are all kinds of reasons people leave their faith traditions. It's too messy to make any generalizations about it. 

You guys aren't getting it. Leaving because of sin means you can no longer bear up under the fight. It doesn't mean you chose sin over God. It means you are losing the battle against sin and it is making you weary to simply be around people at Sacrament meeting. I disappeared for 10 years at a time. I just couldn't handle being so aware of my sins. I went back for a few years and started the cycle over again. I never lost faith in God, Jesus Christ or the Church. I still read scripture. I moved to state after state running from myself. I bought a small sailboat and left the country. My faithful wife followed me everywhere. We went out, quit my job and left the USA. Then we promptly got in a big windstorm, 50 kt winds , 25 ft seas. Yeah we started talking to God. after about 5 thousand miles and many a chapter in the Book of Mormon He started talking back. For me to leave now would be a complete denial of the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ and His Church. Endure til the End is the main lesson learned. Don't give up.

[sjdawg]

12 hours ago, consiglieri said:

It appears some on this board believe there are no valid reasons to leave the LDS Church.

I am starting this thread so they can explain their reasoning.

And to give others the chance to say what they would consider a valid reason.

To start the ball rolling, I personally believe there are valid reasons to leave the LDS Church.

And one of those would be when the LDS Church becomes a hindrance to one's spiritual progression.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I left when I was willing to be honest with myself and admit that I didn't believe the Church was true.  It also wasn't making me happy to remain in the church so for me personally the best thing to do was leave 

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 minutes ago, sjdawg said:

I left when I was willing to be honest with myself and admit that I didn't believe the Church was true.  It also wasn't making me happy to remain in the church so for me personally the best thing to do was leave 

And I'm guessing you have no need to bully me or anyone else into validating your choice for you.

[sjdawg]

9 hours ago, phaedrus ut said:

 

I believe the opposite question is also interesting.  To the non-believers; do you think there valid reasons someone should stay in the LDS church?

 

Phaedrus

If they believe it sincerely and are finding happiness within the church I hope they stay.

[sjdawg]

9 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

And I'm guessing you have no need to bully me or anyone else into validating your choice for you.

Nope.   I'm happy and comfortable with my decision.  

[Hamba Tuhan]

3 minutes ago, sjdawg said:

Nope.   I'm happy and comfortable with my decision.  

<thumbs up>

Edited January 7, 2016 by Hamba Tuhan

[rodheadlee]

9 hours ago, consiglieri said:

I think it would be better just to avoid places that make you unhappy.

 

Sometimes you have to go through unhappy places to get to places that are happier than the first happy place. How sad would that be to never challenge yourself? To forever stand onshore and watch the boats sail away and never desire to sail to Paradise because there may be dragons out there.

 

Anyways, getting on I-5 southbound on a Saturday morning makes me unhappy too but I get real happy when I see my Dad.

[sjdawg]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Never understood this. If you knew them why do you need to have talks about them? If you didn't know them then it is a little late to get interested in their life now.

Is it wrong to want to take an hour and celebrate your loved one at the time of their passing?   

[sjdawg]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Absolutely not. Baby showers should be about baby clothes, sex toys, temple work, and Visiting Teaching.

sex toys at a baby shower??  haha

[The Nehor]

10 minutes ago, sjdawg said:

Is it wrong to want to take an hour and celebrate your loved one at the time of their passing?   

No, and I have done it often at LDS funerals. The discussion of the Plan of Salvation was instrumental in that celebration.

[sjdawg]

2 hours ago, Thinking said:

My maternal grandmother passed away several years ago. She was LDS but not active. At her funeral the local bishop presided and as is customary was the last speaker at the funeral. When he stepped up to the podium I prepared myself to hear the standard plan of salvation funeral talk, but something magical happened. The bishop felt like he should relate a humorous incident that involved my grandmother and some members of the ward. He may have said something about the plan of salvation after that, but what he gave us with that story was much more important. We learned something about her that we didn't previously know and he told it in such a way that we felt like we were there. We now have one more fond memory of her. To this day that bishop's story is one of our favorite stories about her that we tell when we are reminiscing.

That is a great story.  Much better than my grandmothers funeral.   The Bishop who barely knew her (she had been living in hospice care) of course had to officiate and speak at the funeral.   He tried to pretend that he knew her but got her name wrong about 10 times during his talk.   

[salgare]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

You guys aren't getting it. Leaving because of sin means you can no longer bear up under the fight.

I do agree with this.  I might have told this here before. When I was still active but the heavens had been brass for two years running, I wrote a letter to my Bishop explaining that I had to walk away for awhile (I was the Financial Clerk at the time).  I'm a crude man and the best way I could come up with to describe where I was at was something like this:

When I was a kid, we used to tease that if a person was to burp, fart and sneeze simultaneously that it overloaded your system and killed you.  The good news was that it was impossible to do.  I found attempting to reach the level of worthiness to the obtaining of the promises of the Aaronic levels and Melchizedek levels of the Oath and Covenant just as impossible.

It crushed me, I was unable to bear the load of the list of things required and my constantly falling short.

This is exactly why I went inactive.

[Yirgacheffe]

12 hours ago, Buckeye said:

My advice is to leave if you believe you have found something better. A good overview of this position is provided by T&S's Nathaniel Givens: http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2014/04/should-i-stay-or-should-i-go/

 

I think reacting against something bad is an appropriate response.  Though in addressing leaving a given faith the sentiment is probably the more healthy route.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Yirgacheffe

[The Nehor]

4 minutes ago, salgare said:

I do agree with this.  I might have told this here before. When I was still active but the heavens had been brass for two years running, I wrote a letter to my Bishop explaining that I had to walk away for awhile (I was the Financial Clerk at the time).  I'm a crude man and the best way I could come up with to describe where I was at was something like this:

When I was a kid, we used to tease that if a person was to burp, fart and sneeze simultaneously that it overloaded your system and killed you.  The good news was that it was impossible to do.  I found attempting to reach the level of worthiness to the obtaining of the promises of the Aaronic levels and Melchizedek levels of the Oath and Covenant just as impossible.

It crushed me, I was unable to bear the load of the list of things required and my constantly falling short.

This is exactly why I went inactive.

No one is able to reach that level of worthiness. I think you missed the whole atonement thing.

[salgare]

13 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

No one is able to reach that level of worthiness. I think you missed the whole atonement thing.

Sure, hind sight is 20/20.  I don't remember who it was ... might have even been MnG.  I told them my long sad story and they made one simple statement, something to the effect: "I have not heard you mention charity or grace once in that story".  It left me weak in the knees realizing the truth and how are I had missed the mark. ... sorry, gotta find it now ...

 

Yea it hurt

 

Edited January 7, 2016 by salgare

[Glenn101]

Bottom line to me is who decides what is a valid reason for leaving the church??? Is it variable, up to the individual, or is God the arbiter of the validity of any reasons for leaving the church?

 

Again, to me, the real question is and always has been, is the Church what it claims to be, the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-Day Saints? If it is, then whenever a person leaves on their own volition or via church discipline, he/she is putting their salvation and exaltation in jeopardy. It does not matter what personal beefs one may have with any policy or doctrine, if the Church is the one true church. Jesus Christ is the only way and he has established only one church.

 

There is a danger in erecting false criteria for evaluating the truth claims of the church, mainly that they will produce false results. God has established the criteria.

That criteria is not "The church has established policy xxxx which I do not agree with, so it must not be true.

Or a loving God would not have established policy xyz, so the leaders of the church are not following God and the church must not be true.

 

However, anyone seeking validity for a reason to go astray will always be able to find someone to scratch their "itching ears" (2 Timothy 4:3), to tell them what they want to hear.  

 

Glenn

[stemelbow]

I know there are 11 pages of this already and I haven't even read them.  But my take is God needs people out of the Church as well as in.  His designs are beyond us, and quite beyond the Church.  Perhaps He leads people out for a very particular reason and that reason is better than most of the reasons for those who stay in it. 

That thought brings me peace.  I doubt I'd stay LDS if it weren't a possible truth to me.

[consiglieri]

12 hours ago, Thinking said:

My maternal grandmother passed away several years ago. She was LDS but not active. At her funeral the local bishop presided and as is customary was the last speaker at the funeral. When he stepped up to the podium I prepared myself to hear the standard plan of salvation funeral talk, but something magical happened. The bishop felt like he should relate a humorous incident that involved my grandmother and some members of the ward. He may have said something about the plan of salvation after that, but what he gave us with that story was much more important. We learned something about her that we didn't previously know and he told it in such a way that we felt like we were there. We now have one more fond memory of her. To this day that bishop's story is one of our favorite stories about her that we tell when we are reminiscing.

Bravo for your bishop!

When the mother-in-law of a dear friend passed, she had left specific instructions to not make of her funeral a missionary opportunity, as the non-members were numerous and she was sure they would find it offensive.

Her specific instructions were disregarded, her funeral was made a missionary opportunity, and the non-members were offended.

A trifecta!

[consiglieri]

12 hours ago, Pa Pa said:

Yea their are valid reasons, but it is something to be entered into lightly. My belief is that it should be done as it should with all who convert...through trembling fear (great respect and love for God), prayer and fasting. But if one no longer believes, nor desire the fellowship of the members and those in open rebellion who take to every revenue to recruit others to the same open rebellion. Also those who carry signs on the streets during conference or disrupt conference while trying to shout down the Prophet, or during sustaining votes...they should leave as God judges those who proclaim membership, while seeking the demise of the faith. Just like many whose open rebellion or those who hide it, while attending the Temple and recording Temple ceremonies...and I have seen many recordings by members who wish to thumb their noses to those they hate. Not sure if you are old enough to remember the song, "Smiling Faces"...which will make my point. So in short (if it is not to late)...yes there are many reasons to leave. Only the individual can decide, and only after prayer and fasting...if it God they no longer believe in, then without any thought they should leave.

 

I appreciate your thoughts, Oh My Pa Pa!

I agree that it is inappropriate to disrupt GC, though I am not aware of anybody trying to "shout down the Prophet."

I am aware that a few people registered a dissenting vote a couple of Conferences ago, but I think that is entirely appropriate, and even healthy.

I mean, if they don't want to hear any nay votes, they probably shouldn't be asking in the first place.

 

[consiglieri]

10 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

And I'm guessing you have no need to bully me or anyone else into validating your choice for you.

Don't make me come back there, Hamba!

[consiglieri]

10 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

To forever stand onshore and watch the boats sail away and never desire to sail to Paradise because there may be dragons out there.

This is exactly how I view Mormons who stay in the Church even though it makes them unhappy.

 

[consiglieri]

54 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

There is a danger in erecting false criteria for evaluating the truth claims of the church, mainly that they will produce false results. God has established the criteria.

That criteria is not "The church has established policy xxxx which I do not agree with, so it must not be true.

Or a loving God would not have established policy xyz, so the leaders of the church are not following God and the church must not be true.

 

But the worst criteria of all has to be that whatever Church leaders tell us must be right simply by virtue of the fact that they are Church leaders.

Agreed?