Are There Valid Reasons to Leave the Church?

[rodheadlee]

On 1/8/2016 at 11:13 AM, consiglieri said:

It only looks backwards to those going in the wrong direction.

So, enlighten us. Where is this place that is closer to Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, that has the Keys to the Priesthood and the Keys to Bind and Seal on Heaven and on Earth? That can offer me Eternal Life?

[salgare]

3 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

So, enlighten us. Where is this place that is closer to Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, that has the Keys to the Priesthood and the Keys to Bind and Seal on Heaven and on Earth? That can offer me Eternal Life?

rod, maybe all these keys, ordinances, priesthoods and other requirements not required for eternal life. Maybe its only man made organizations and interpretations that require these things.

[JLHPROF]

40 minutes ago, salgare said:

rod, maybe all these keys, ordinances, priesthoods and other requirements not required for eternal life. Maybe its only man made organizations and interpretations that require these things.

That would make God himself a liar.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I always worried if I forgot the signs and tokens and sayings in the temple, then I wouldn't be allowed into the Celestial Kingdom.

[JLHPROF]

11 hours ago, bluebell said:

But, A Catholic can say the exact same thing to a someone who leaves Catholicism to convert to mormonism.  From our perspective, would that be a reason for the Catholic to stay Catholic? All we can do is what we sincerely believe God wants of us.  Someone else's opinion of what God wants for us shouldn't matter, regardless of what religion they belong to. 

Trying to sincerely follow God's will for us is a valid excuse, even when we are wrong.  How can God ask more of us than that?

Of course, you are correct.  But that wasn't at all what I said.

The point still stands as to the use of the word "valid".  Valid to whom?
I wasn't using anyone else's opinion.  I was using God's.

If GOD doesn't consider our reasons for leaving the true gospel valid, our lack of belief in a religion that God once condescended to witness to us won't make much of an excuses.  God will say "I told you this was true".  You say "I didn't believe it anymore".  What would God's opinion be of such a response?
 

[Zakuska]

3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Of course, you are correct.  But that wasn't at all what I said.

The point still stands as to the use of the word "valid".  Valid to whom?
I wasn't using anyone else's opinion.  I was using God's.

If GOD doesn't consider our reasons for leaving the true gospel valid, our lack of belief in a religion that God once condescended to witness to us won't make much of an excuses.  God will say "I told you this was true".  You say "I didn't believe it anymore".  What would God's opinion be of such a response?
 

And you know God's opinion?  How exactly?

[rodheadlee]

8 hours ago, salgare said:

rod, maybe all these keys, ordinances, priesthoods and other requirements not required for eternal life. Maybe its only man made organizations and interpretations that require these things.

That would require me to deny the Holy Spirit. I have been commanded to "go and be sealed to thine wife".

[rodheadlee]

4 hours ago, Zakuska said:

And you know God's opinion?  How exactly?

Through the Holy Spirit, he speaks to us. Words.

[bluebell]

8 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Of course, you are correct.  But that wasn't at all what I said.

The point still stands as to the use of the word "valid".  Valid to whom?
I wasn't using anyone else's opinion.  I was using God's.

 

I think it's valid to God though.

Again, if we sincerely and truly believe that we are doing what God wants us to do, what else can He ask of us?  

Can He expect us to choose to do something that we don't believe is true?  How would we even decide which of the many things we don't believe in is the one He wants us to be a part of?  What would our standard of knowing His truth be, if following what we believe the Spirit is telling us to do isn't it?

[Tacenda]

10 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

That would make God himself a liar.

Well not if the men who taught the ordinances got it wrong or misunderstood.

[JLHPROF]

7 hours ago, Zakuska said:

And you know God's opinion?  How exactly?

Once again, missing the point.  Am I not being clear on this?

I don't know God's opinion.

But IF God condescends and witnesses the truth of something to you AND you then later choose to walk away from that truth exactly what reason do you think you can give to God that he would consider "valid" for rejecting him.  What justification could you possibly give for receiving a witness from God and walking away from it?

This would apply for any religion or belief system.

[Bobbieaware]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I think it's valid to God though.

Again, if we sincerely and truly believe that we are doing what God wants us to do, what else can He ask of us?  

Can He expect us to choose to do something that we don't believe is true?  How would we even decide which of the many things we don't believe in is the one He wants us to be a part of?  What would our standard of knowing His truth be, if following what we believe the Spirit is telling us to do isn't it?

This scriptures abundantly testify there is no hope of eternal life for the deceived, even if one is most sincerely deceived. The best a sincerely deceived individual can hope for is a measure of compassion from a merciful God; but there is surely no reward for being deceived, just pity.

 75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, WHO WERE BLINDED BY THE CRAFTINESS OF MEN..

 76 These are they who receive of his glory, BUT NOT OF HIS FULNESS. (D&C 76)

[JLHPROF]

20 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

This scriptures abundantly testify there is no hope of eternal life for the deceived, even if one is most sincerely deceived. The best a sincerely deceived individual can hope for is a measure of compassion from a merciful God; but there is surely no reward for being deceived, just pity.

 75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, WHO WERE BLINDED BY THE CRAFTINESS OF MEN..

 76 These are they who receive of his glory, BUT NOT OF HIS FULNESS. (D&C 76)

That's why our own opinions should take a back seat to the will of God.  I personally believe that if God is diligently and sincerely petitioned that his response will be the same gospel, the same ordinances, and the same direction for all his children.  There is only one path.  When different answers are received it is due to us, not to a God who is eternal, unchanging, consistent, and loving.

(I know, "other religions believe God told them something different").

[thesometimesaint]

Paradise is the time and place to learn the Gospel, if we didn't learn it here. We can neither be saved in ignorance nor can we be damned in ignorance.

[Zakuska]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Well not if the men who taught the ordinances got it wrong or misunderstood.

If women were part of the ordinance maybe the men woukdnt get it wrong.

[Bobbieaware]

12 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Paradise is the time and place to learn the Gospel, if we didn't learn it here. We can neither be saved in ignorance nor can we be damned in ignorance.

Quite true. But as the quote from D&C 76 plainly asserts, in spite of the preaching of the Gospel that goes on in paradise, there will be many who will suffer the loss of eternal blessings because at one or more critical juncture they alowed themselves to be deceived by the craftiness of men. This surely means that if the proper steps and precautions had been taken by such persons they would not have been deceived and, in the end. judged unworthy to receive the fullness of God's eternal blessings.

[JLHPROF]

8 minutes ago, Zakuska said:

If women were part of the ordinance maybe the men woukdnt get it wrong.

Direct revelation is a little tricky to misinterpret.  But it's been so long since anyone recorded one who knows what mistakes our modern watered down version of "revelation" could have led to.

[Bobbieaware]

56 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

That's why our own opinions should take a back seat to the will of God.  I personally believe that if God is diligently and sincerely petitioned that his response will be the same gospel, the same ordinances, and the same direction for all his children.  There is only one path.  When different answers are received it is due to us, not to a God who is eternal, unchanging, consistent, and loving.

(I know, "other religions believe God told them something different").

Yes, it is their own doing, along with a little help from the unseen world... 

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. (1 John 4)

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

That's why our own opinions should take a back seat to the will of God.  I personally believe that if God is diligently and sincerely petitioned that his response will be the same gospel, the same ordinances, and the same direction for all his children.  There is only one path.  When different answers are received it is due to us, not to a God who is eternal, unchanging, consistent, and loving.

(I know, "other religions believe God told them something different").

What do we do when we receive different answers though?

How do we know we've received different answers if we sincerely believe they are from God?

[Rain]

On Thursday, January 07, 2016 at 11:11 AM, Gray said:

Of course the problem with that is that meetings are very often not uplifting or edifying. Maybe allowing a bit more frank discussion would help?

I believe more discussion would help. So does the church if one reads the front of the manuals and materials for teachings, listens or watches materials put out by the church etc. The problem is when teachings continue to read the lesson instead of promoting discussion in their classes. People often talk of a dislike for the prophet manuals. One could read just one paragraph from the lesson and then guide the rest of the lesson in a good discussion and be doing exactly as we are directed to do and it is more effective.

So I am HUGE on the effectiveness was discussion, but that said I have found I can be uplifted and edified in 99.9% of meetings. It is just harder for me to focus on making it so. One can grow this way, but I think our members would grow by leaps and bounds collectivly of taught by discussion rather than readings in SS and RS/priesthood.

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

This scriptures abundantly testify there is no hope of eternal life for the deceived, even if one is most sincerely deceived. The best a sincerely deceived individual can hope for is a measure of compassion from a merciful God; but there is surely no reward for being deceived, just pity.

 75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, WHO WERE BLINDED BY THE CRAFTINESS OF MEN..

 76 These are they who receive of his glory, BUT NOT OF HIS FULNESS. (D&C 76)

Garden Girl has talked repeatedly about how her husband never joined the church during his lifetime but that his temple work has now been done and she feels he has accepted it and that she knows they will be together eternally. 

Are you saying that there was no reason for her to have done the work since he died deceived about the gospel?

 

[JLHPROF]

35 minutes ago, bluebell said:

What do we do when we receive different answers though?

How do we know we've received different answers if we sincerely believe they are from God?

That is the million dollar question.

But the key is not denying what God gives us.  If God witnessed to someone that the Church is true, and then they choose to leave because they are unhappy, in disagreement with the leaders over some social issue, or think they have found a better path, they are effectively saying "God lied to me" when he witnessed the truth.  There is no valid reason for denying an actual witness from God because you change your mind on an issue.

Now contradictory spiritual witnesses are a much trickier question.

[Bobbieaware]

26 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Garden Girl has talked repeatedly about how her husband never joined the church during his lifetime but that his temple work has now been done and she feels he has accepted it and that she knows they will be together eternally. 

Are you saying that there was no reason for her to have done the work since he died deceived about the gospel?

 

Not at all. I'm sure I am one of the greatest believers of spirit world repentance on this board. But at the same time one can't disregard the scriptures that speak of the lost spiritual blessings of those who have been deceived at critical junctures in their lives. God is the perfect judge, so he perfectly knows where to draw the line one might cross that could cause him to forfeit the fulness of eternal blessings if he is deceived. But I believe those who are in the greatest danger of losing exaltation are those who at one time had a very strong  spiritual witness that the Restored Gospel is true but then allowed themselves to be led down those strange paths that lead away from the tree of life. Garden girl's husband is not in that category.

Edited January 10, 2016 by Bobbieaware

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

That is the million dollar question.

But the key is not denying what God gives us.  If God witnessed to someone that the Church is true, and then they choose to leave because they are unhappy, in disagreement with the leaders over some social issue, or think they have found a better path, they are effectively saying "God lied to me" when he witnessed the truth.  There is no valid reason for denying an actual witness from God because you change your mind on an issue.

Now contradictory spiritual witnesses are a much trickier question.

I get what you are saying and I agree with it in some ways. But, I still think it's too simplistic.

My husband is a convert to the church. He joined when he was 16. Before that, he was very active in a Lutheran congregation because he felt that's where God told him to go. 

One of the reasons he started looking into Mormonism is because of a new pastor who he disagreed with. 

Can you see the problem with what you've said here and what it says about his decision to leave Lutheranism?

[salgare]

26 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said:

Garden girl's husband is not in that category.

Thank goodness he never had any spiritual experiences in this life.  I wonder what is so different in Paradise/Hell that would cause one to start having such?