Gray Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 On 1/9/2016 at 10:49 AM, The Nehor said: I disrespectfully disagree with your first statement. I can't speak for your experience of course. But I've been in the church for almost four decades, and that has been my experience 99% of the time.
bluebell Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 1 hour ago, Gray said: I can't speak for your experience of course. But I've been in the church for almost four decades, and that has been my experience 99% of the time. For every 100 Sundays you go to church, you only feel the spirit and get something out of 1 of them? That's crazy! Do you feel like your ward is keeping you from being able to feel the spirit, or is it something else. I've been a member of about a dozen different wards in the last 15 years and even my worst ward didn't come close to being that kind of a hinderance on my ability to enjoy church. 1
bluebell Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 20 hours ago, Bobbieaware said: Not at all. I'm sure I am one of the greatest believers of spirit world repentance on this board. But at the same time one can't disregard the scriptures that speak of the lost spiritual blessings of those who have been deceived at critical junctures in their lives. God is the perfect judge, so he perfectly knows where to draw the line one might cross that could cause him to forfeit the fulness of eternal blessings if he is deceived. But I believe those who are in the greatest danger of losing exaltation are those who at one time had a very strong spiritual witness that the Restored Gospel is true but then allowed themselves to be led down those strange paths that lead away from the tree of life. Garden girl's husband is not in that category. I hope you can see how your blanket statement from before-"This scriptures abundantly testify there is no hope of eternal life for the deceived, even if one is most sincerely deceived."-wasn't actually true, and that as it was written, it negated some of the most important teachings of the church. Namely, that temple work is done specifically because there is hope. 1
consiglieri Posted January 11, 2016 Author Posted January 11, 2016 On 1/10/2016 at 5:06 PM, rodheadlee said: So, enlighten us. Where is this place that is closer to Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, that has the Keys to the Priesthood and the Keys to Bind and Seal on Heaven and on Earth? That can offer me Eternal Life? It is not a place. It is a journey. “The trail is the thing, not the end of the trail. Travel too fast, and you miss all you are traveling for.” --Louis L'Amour
bluebell Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 1 minute ago, consiglieri said: I think you have hit on why it is so important in Mormonism to do what the prophet tells you, even if you believe it to be wrong. Not really. If you believe you have been told by God that this is His church and that He uses a prophet to lead it, then it's important that you do what the prophet says, even if you believe it to be wrong, until you believe God tells you something different. One of the biggest lies we have begun to accept is that our feelings about things are how we judge what is right and wrong. Thinking about who we believe God is, all the powers that He has, all the knowledge that He has, and how completely pitiful, weak, and faulty our knowledge and abilities are, anyone who believes that they and God will always be in agreement about things is deluded. One of the best ways to know that we've gone off the rails is if we worship a God that always seems to do exactly what we would do, and who's doctrine is exactly what we are comfortable believing, and who is always on our side in every argument. We should disagree with God sometimes, otherwise, we aren't following God, we are following ourselves. 2
Bobbieaware Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 1 hour ago, bluebell said: I hope you can see how your blanket statement from before-"This scriptures abundantly testify there is no hope of eternal life for the deceived, even if one is most sincerely deceived."-wasn't actually true, and that as it was written, it negated some of the most important teachings of the church. Namely, that temple work is done specifically because there is hope. Of course I believe what you say. But I also simultaneously believe what is taught in D&C 76, and that is that some members of the human family will inherit only a terrestrial glory because they allowed themselves to be deceived by the craftiness of men. So it's obvious there are going to be some who will fall short of obtaining the fullness of eternal blessing as a consequence of being deceived. So if D&C 76 can be relied on as being trur, then there are going to be some who will suffer the loss of eternal blessings for allowing themselves to be deceived, and they will suffer that loss in spite of the missionary work that goes on in the spirit world.
Bobbieaware Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 On 1/11/2016 at 8:48 AM, bluebell said: I hope you can see how your blanket statement from before-"This scriptures abundantly testify there is no hope of eternal life for the deceived, even if one is most sincerely deceived."-wasn't actually true, and that as it was written, it negated some of the most important teachings of the church. Namely, that temple work is done specifically because there is hope. 75 These (the inheritors of the terrestrial kingdom) are they who are honorable men of the earth, WHO WERE BLINDED BY THE CRAFTINESS OF MEN. 76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness. (D&C 76) STOP SCREAMING.
Gray Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 1 hour ago, bluebell said: For every 100 Sundays you go to church, you only feel the spirit and get something out of 1 of them? That's crazy! Do you feel like your ward is keeping you from being able to feel the spirit, or is it something else. I've been a member of about a dozen different wards in the last 15 years and even my worst ward didn't come close to being that kind of a hinderance on my ability to enjoy church. It's hard to say, really. My ward is made up of some bright, compassionate and spiritual people. I think it's really the combination of lackluster teaching materials and untrained but well-meaning amateurs doing the teaching. It's just a problem built into the system. Of course what someone finds inspiring and transcendent is very personal and subjective.
bluebell Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 16 minutes ago, Gray said: It's hard to say, really. My ward is made up of some bright, compassionate and spiritual people. I think it's really the combination of lackluster teaching materials and untrained but well-meaning amateurs doing the teaching. It's just a problem built into the system. Of course what someone finds inspiring and transcendent is very personal and subjective. Since the system is the same everywhere, and many people find church uplifting, it doesn't seem like problem can be the system. Not that the system is perfect.
Gray Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 12 minutes ago, bluebell said: Since the system is the same everywhere, and many people find church uplifting, it doesn't seem like problem can be the system. Not that the system is perfect. Some people do find church uplifting. I don't know that it's the majority, though.
consiglieri Posted January 11, 2016 Author Posted January 11, 2016 57 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: Of course I believe what you say. But I also simultaneously believe what is taught in D&C 76, and that is that some members of the human family will inherit only a terrestrial glory because they allowed themselves to be deceived by the craftiness of men. So it's obvious there are going to be some who will fall short of obtaining the fullness of eternal blessing as a consequence of being deceived. So if D&C 76 can be relied on as being trur, then there are going to be some who will suffer the loss of eternal blessings for allowing themselves to be deceived, and they will suffer that loss in spite of the missionary work that goes on in the spirit world. The confusion arises because D&C 76 was received about eight-years before the concept of baptism for the dead.
consiglieri Posted January 11, 2016 Author Posted January 11, 2016 16 minutes ago, bluebell said: Since the system is the same everywhere, and many people find church uplifting, it doesn't seem like problem can be the system. Not that the system is perfect. I think the problem is that, for some people, there is a ceiling to the number of times they can hear the same thing over and over and still feel spiritually uplifted. For me, that number was a million. After that, it became problematic. 1
consiglieri Posted January 11, 2016 Author Posted January 11, 2016 4 minutes ago, Gray said: Some people do find church uplifting. I don't know that it's the majority, though. And then there are those members who will say they find church uplifting even though they don't because they know they are supposed to say so. I know such people exist. I was one for many years. 2
Gray Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 2 minutes ago, consiglieri said: And then there are those members who will say they find church uplifting even though they don't because they know they are supposed to say so. I know such people exist. I was one for many years. Yes, there is also pressure to say the same about missionary life, post-mission.
Bobbieaware Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 (edited) 25 minutes ago, consiglieri said: The confusion arises because D&C 76 was received about eight-years before the concept of baptism for the dead. There is no need for confusion because D&C 76 is in perfect harmony with sections 19, 88, 124, 128, and 138. Section 76 clearly and unambiguously testifies that all, except for the sons of perdition, will receive forgiveness, all will obtain salvation, and all will inherit a mansion in one of the Father's kingdoms of heavenly glory. D&C 76 anticipates and harmonizes perfectly with section 138. Who can deny that section 76 is all about forgiveness in the world to come and salvation for the dead? Edited January 11, 2016 by Bobbieaware
bluebell Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 29 minutes ago, Gray said: Some people do find church uplifting. I don't know that it's the majority, though. I don't know that there is any way for us to gauge that. 2
bluebell Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 29 minutes ago, consiglieri said: I think the problem is that, for some people, there is a ceiling to the number of times they can hear the same thing over and over and still feel spiritually uplifted. For me, that number was a million. After that, it became problematic. This kind of sentiment implies that there is something wrong with those who do find church uplifting even if they've been members for decades. I try to stay away from those kind of self centered (the "your obviously wrong because you don't agree with me" type) explanations for problems. 2
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 4 hours ago, bluebell said: Thinking about who we believe God is, all the powers that He has, all the knowledge that He has, and how completely pitiful, weak, and faulty our knowledge and abilities are, anyone who believes that they and God will always be in agreement about things is deluded. We had a training meeting with Elder Bednar last year, and in answer to a question about recognising the voice of the Spirit, he noted that it takes much practice, but one of the ways we can begin to identify it is that it usually is telling us that we're wrong about something. 3
stemelbow Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 1 hour ago, bluebell said: This kind of sentiment implies that there is something wrong with those who do find church uplifting even if they've been members for decades. I try to stay away from those kind of self centered (the "your obviously wrong because you don't agree with me" type) explanations for problems. I don't see where you got all that out of what he said, to be fair. he said for some people, which included him. He didn't say those who weren't like him are bad or that there is something wrong with them. I don't get the "your obviously wrong because..." vibe from his statement.
The Nehor Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 7 hours ago, Gray said: I can't speak for your experience of course. But I've been in the church for almost four decades, and that has been my experience 99% of the time. I have found that if I attend the three hour block I always get some insight or clarification that helps me in the next week. If it is a boring lesson I appeal the lesson and get taught by the Holy Ghost instead.
The Nehor Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 49 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: We had a training meeting with Elder Bednar last year, and in answer to a question about recognising the voice of the Spirit, he noted that it takes much practice, but one of the ways we can begin to identify it is that it usually is telling us that we're wrong about something. Seconded. This is why the "revelations" of critics and some from members I find trite. God does not tell us what we want to hear. He tells us what we need to hear and what we need to correct. Some people reduce the Holy Ghost to a personal cheerleader. 2
Gray Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 (edited) 2 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Seconded. This is why the "revelations" of critics and some from members I find trite. God does not tell us what we want to hear. He tells us what we need to hear and what we need to correct. Some people reduce the Holy Ghost to a personal cheerleader. God seems to tell people exactly what they already believe. One reason why I don't think God communicates messages like that. Edited January 11, 2016 by Gray
The Nehor Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 8 minutes ago, Gray said: God seems to tell people exactly what they already believe. One reason why I don't think God communicates messages like that. Absent revelation I would believe that same sex relationships are generally harmless, the law of chastity is overly restrictive, 10% is too much to ask, the three hour block is too wrong, we should go back to being naked in a paradise garden, I should have superpowers, and finally that the world would be rearranged so there is no want, little to no work is required for the necessities of life, and we could spend our days improving our minds with books and music, enjoying wonderful recreation, and finding joy as we will. And that is just the short list. God disagrees with me a lot. 1
Gray Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 (edited) 2 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Absent revelation I would believe that same sex relationships are generally harmless, the law of chastity is overly restrictive, 10% is too much to ask, the three hour block is too wrong, we should go back to being naked in a paradise garden, I should have superpowers, and finally that the world would be rearranged so there is no want, little to no work is required for the necessities of life, and we could spend our days improving our minds with books and music, enjoying wonderful recreation, and finding joy as we will. And that is just the short list. God disagrees with me a lot. I did say God seems to tell people the things they already believe, not necessarily the things their ids want (although for some people it's both). Edited January 11, 2016 by Gray
The Nehor Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 2 minutes ago, Gray said: I did say God seems to tell people the things they already believe, not necessarily the things their ids want (although for some people it's both). Some of those are not my id.
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