consiglieri Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 It appears some on this board believe there are no valid reasons to leave the LDS Church. I am starting this thread so they can explain their reasoning. And to give others the chance to say what they would consider a valid reason. To start the ball rolling, I personally believe there are valid reasons to leave the LDS Church. And one of those would be when the LDS Church becomes a hindrance to one's spiritual progression. All the Best! --Consiglieri
CA Steve Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 Evidently some people think it is necessary to provide true Scotsman's definition of truth to justify leaving, a requirement nowhere to be seen when asking people to join.
thesometimesaint Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 There is only one "valid" reason to leave. You don't believe it anymore. Be happy in your decision. . 2
Bobbieaware Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 13 minutes ago, consiglieri said: It appears some on this board believe there are no valid reasons to leave the LDS Church. I am starting this thread so they can explain their reasoning. And to give others the chance to say what they would consider a valid reason. To start the ball rolling, I personally believe there are valid reasons to leave the LDS Church. And one of those would be when the LDS Church becomes a hindrance to one's spiritual progression. All the Best! --Consiglieri Yes. If one no longer believes the Church is true or if he or she had committed a sin they don't want to repent of that's serious enough to merit excommunication.
Jeanne Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 6 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: Yes. If one no longer believes the Church is true or if he or she had committed a sin they don't want to repent of that's serious enough to merit excommunication. Oh,,,most people who leave the church are real big sinners, I left the church because I felt betrayed and lied too. It was devastating because my family and childhood had been through some severe trials because of the church..then to find that all of that was so unnecessary put me on a different spiritual path. This is AFTER I had been to the Bishop and going through repentance process. 1
Bobbieaware Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Oh,,,most people who leave the church are real big sinners, I left the church because I felt betrayed and lied too. It was devastating because my family and childhood had been through some severe trials because of the church..then to find that all of that was so unnecessary put me on a different spiritual path. This is AFTER I had been to the Bishop and going through repentance process. I've noticed that very often former believers seem to be unable to read the thoughts of believers with objectivity. Why did you immediately focus on the second part of my response and somehow ignore the plainly obvious first part? Did I not say the first of the two reasons for leaving the Church is if one no longer believes the Church is true? You clearly fit into that first category. Yet you seemed to focus on the second category as if that were the only thing I said. Why? Edited January 6, 2016 by Bobbieaware 3
Jeanne Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 (edited) 1 minute ago, Bobbieaware said: I've noticed that very often former believers seem to be unable to read the thoughts of believers with objectivity. Why did you immediately focus on the second part of my response and somehow ignore the plainly obvious first part? Did I not say the first of the two reasons for leaving the Church is if one no longer believes the Church is true? You clearly fit into that first category, yet you seemed to focus on the second category as if that were the only thing I said. Why? I did not ignore the first part..it is just that I so expected the second part. No offense. I get the idea that if a person no longer believes the church is true, it is because they sin.?????? Edited January 6, 2016 by Jeanne
Popular Post Buckeye Posted January 6, 2016 Popular Post Posted January 6, 2016 (edited) My advice is to leave if you believe you have found something better. A good overview of this position is provided by T&S's Nathaniel Givens: http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2014/04/should-i-stay-or-should-i-go/ Quote And so here is my advice to those considering leaving the Church, based on my own thoughts for what I would try to do if it were me: if you go, go for love. Go because you believe you have found something better. And if you stay, stay for love. To the extent that you are able, do not react against something bad, but rather strive towards something good. Edited January 6, 2016 by Buckeye 9
Bobbieaware Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 Just now, Jeanne said: I did not ignore the first part..it is just that I so expected the second part. No offense. But it's so obvious people from all sorts of churches (not just the LDS Church) leave the churches they once belonged to when they violate the spiritual laws believed and adhered to by that church. There is nothing at all surprising nor unfair in this, no matter what the church might be. Those who violate the rules of various churches, with no intention of repentance and renewed conformity, should demonstrate personal integrity and leave those religious organizations. 2
Jeanne Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 1 minute ago, Bobbieaware said: But it's so obvious people from all sorts of churches (not just the LDS Church) leave the churches they once belonged to when they violate the spiritual laws believed and adhered to by that church. There is nothing at all surprising nor unfair in this, no matter what the church might be. Those who violate the rules of various churches, with no intention of repentance and renewed conformity, should demonstrate personal integrity and leave those religious organizations. And so I did. The church violated my integrity. 1
Popular Post bluebell Posted January 6, 2016 Popular Post Posted January 6, 2016 If someone studies, fasts, and prays to know God's will, and God tells them to leave, then that's a valid reason to do so. 6
Jeanne Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 9 minutes ago, bluebell said: If someone studies, fasts, and prays to know God's will, and God tells them to leave, then that's a valid reason to do so. This, I did this many times.
Zakuska Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 (edited) Sydney Rigdon and several others seem to have found a valid reason. Even Emma Smith herself. Edited January 6, 2016 by Zakuska 1
bluebell Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 3 minutes ago, Jeanne said: This, I did this many times. There you go. If you have faith that you understood Him correctly, then move on to where He has directed you to go and don't. look. back. (and i don't mean that you should leave the board or anything, just as far as your spiritual journey is involved.) 3
CA Steve Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 27 minutes ago, Bobbieaware said: But it's so obvious people from all sorts of churches (not just the LDS Church) leave the churches they once belonged to when they violate the spiritual laws believed and adhered to by that church. There is nothing at all surprising nor unfair in this, no matter what the church might be. Those who violate the rules of various churches, with no intention of repentance and renewed conformity, should demonstrate personal integrity and leave those religious organizations. Does this reasoning apply to converts from another religion to the LDS church?
volgadon Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 16 minutes ago, CA Steve said: Does this reasoning apply to converts from another religion to the LDS church? It can, but our rules are oftentimes stricter, and the Word of Wisdom taboos can be socially onerous, so it is not a likely scenario. 2
smac97 Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, consiglieri said: It appears some on this board believe there are no valid reasons to leave the LDS Church. I am starting this thread so they can explain their reasoning. And to give others the chance to say what they would consider a valid reason. To start the ball rolling, I personally believe there are valid reasons to leave the LDS Church. And one of those would be when the LDS Church becomes a hindrance to one's spiritual progression. All the Best! --Consiglieri I think this thread will devolve into a battle over semantics. From a doctrinal/spiritual point of view, from an eschatological point of view, within the LDS paradigm (based on the assumption that Joseph Smith really did see God the Father and Jesus Christ, really did receive angelic ministrations, really was led by an angel to the Gold Plates, really did translate them by the gift and power of God, really did receive priesthood authority from John the Baptist and Peter, James and John, really was commanded to organize the Lord's Church, which Church continues to this day and continues to house the priesthood and the revelatory and other gifts given through Joseph Smith, etc.), no, there are no valid reasons for voluntarily leaving the LDS Church. I am simply not persuaded that God Restored His Church on the earth, only to tell some people to join it and then leave it later. I do not think such an idea is supportable in scripture. One may as well say "God told me to stop having faith in Jesus Christ, to stop reading the scriptures, and stop repenting of my sins." Such things are simply not compatible with the LDS paradigm, and neither is leaving the Church (the "Body of Christ"). From other points of view, however, there are many and varied reasons to leave the LDS Church. For example, claiming that the LDS Church has the potential to become "a hindrance to one's spiritual progression" would be an alternative point of view from the one described in the preceding paragraph. If an individual is operating outside the LDS paradigm (such as those who claim membership for social reasons, or who have never had or have lost their testimony of the Restored Gospel), than pretty much any reason is "valid." If an individual takes a position that the Church is something other than what it claims to be, then the Church simply becomes a social club, and leaving it is entirely within the discretion of the individual. I am not saying that these other points of view are correct. Rather, I am proposing that Latter-day Saints, and indeed people everywhere, might be better off if we give each other a bit of breathing room. I think we should remind ourselves often that reasonable minds can in good faith disagree about all sorts of things, including important things. Our interactions should be based on this premise. That doesn't mean we surrender our beliefs, or cede the field to ideological opponents. Rather, I am suggesting that we allow for reasonable, good-faith disagreement about things like leaving the LDS Church. With that in mind, I will again state that I do not think there is a good-faith position to be taken that there are "valid reasons to leave the LDS Church" when that issue is viewed within the LDS paradigm. I would say the same thing if someone were to propose that there are "valid reasons" for a faithful, observant, Latter-day Saint to commit adultery or fornication, or to embezzle funds from an employer, or to enter into polygamy, or to violate the Word of Wisdom, and so on. Thanks, -Smac Edited January 6, 2016 by smac97 3
Ahab Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 What do you mean by a valid reason? Wouldn't any reason at all be a valid reason? Don't like being a Mormon anymore Don't see any good reason to be one anymore? That would be 2 valid reasons to not be one anymore, I believe. 2
salgare Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, thesometimesaint said: There is only one "valid" reason to leave. You don't believe it anymore. Be happy in your decision. . bobbieaware said "Yes. If one no longer believes the Church is true or if he or she had committed a sin they don't want to repent of that's serious enough to merit excommunication." I disagree, and a whole group of snufferites would concur. Edited January 6, 2016 by salgare
smac97 Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 10 minutes ago, Ahab said: What do you mean by a valid reason? Wouldn't any reason at all be a valid reason? Don't like being a Mormon anymore Don't see any good reason to be one anymore? That would be 2 valid reasons to not be one anymore, I believe. And the battle of semantics has begun! Thanks, -Smac 1
salgare Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 1 hour ago, Bobbieaware said: But it's so obvious people from all sorts of churches (not just the LDS Church) leave the churches they once belonged to when they violate the spiritual laws believed and adhered to by that church. For the 2000+ that recently left, what percentage of them do you believe left for the reason you have given?
Ahab Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 7 minutes ago, smac97 said: I think this thread will devolve into a battle over semantics. From a doctrinal/spiritual point of view, from an eschatological point of view, within the LDS paradigm (based on the assumption that Joseph Smith really did see God the Father and Jesus Christ, really did receive angelic ministrations, really was led by an angel to the Gold Plates, really did translate them by the gift and power of God, really did receive priesthood authority from John the Baptist and Peter, James and John, really was commanded to organize the Lord's Church, which Church continues to this day and continues to house the priesthood and the revelatory and other gifts given through Joseph Smith, etc.), no, there are no valid reasons for voluntarily leaving the LDS Church. I am simply not persuaded that God Restored His Church on the earth, only to tell some people to join it and then leave it later. I do not think such an idea is supportable in scripture. From other points of view, however, there are many and varied reasons to leave the LDS Church. For example, claiming that the LDS Church has the potential to become "a hindrance to one's spiritual progression" would be an alternative point of view from the one described in the preceding paragraph. I am not saying that these other points of view are correct. Rather, I am proposing that Latter-day Saints, and indeed people everywhere, might be better off if we give each other a bit of breathing room. I think we should remind ourselves often that reasonable minds can in good faith disagree about all sorts of things, including important things. Our interactions should be based on this premise. That doesn't mean we surrender our beliefs, or cede the field to ideological opponents. Rather, I am suggesting that we allow for reasonable, good-faith disagreement about things like leaving the LDS Church. With that in mind, I will again state that I do not think there is a good-faith position to be taken that there are "valid reasons to leave the LDS Church" when that issue is viewed within the LDS paradigm. I would say the same thing if someone were to propose that there are "valid reasons" for a faithful, observant, Latter-day Saint to commit adultery or fornication, or to embezzle funds from an employer, or to enter into polygamy, or to violate the Word of Wisdom, and so on. Thanks, -Smac Based on the assumption? I don't like to assume anything and do my best to avoid making them so I wouldn't have joined the Church in the first place much less remain a member if all I had to go on was an assumption. And besides that, Satan and his ilk know all about Joseph and the Lord's Church and they are not clamoring to get in and live by God's commandments as members of our Lord's Church, so even while knowing all of that they still have valid reasons to not join or stay with it, even though all of their reasons can probably be summarized as them just not wanting to be our Lord's disciples.
Rain Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 52 minutes ago, bluebell said: If someone studies, fasts, and prays to know God's will, and God tells them to leave, then that's a valid reason to do so. A similar question was asked not long ago. I agree with bluebell with one add in: If someone studies, fasts, and prays to know God's will (and is ready and willing to do whatever that is), and God tells them to leave, then that's a valid reason to do so. If we are not ready and willing to stay or leave both then we may not hear or understand what he tells us to do. 2
consiglieri Posted January 6, 2016 Author Posted January 6, 2016 Thanks for your responses so far. Can we all agree that it is at least theoretically possible that God might want somebody to leave the LDS Church?
Gray Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Bobbieaware said: But it's so obvious people from all sorts of churches (not just the LDS Church) leave the churches they once belonged to when they violate the spiritual laws believed and adhered to by that church. There is nothing at all surprising nor unfair in this, no matter what the church might be. Those who violate the rules of various churches, with no intention of repentance and renewed conformity, should demonstrate personal integrity and leave those religious organizations. If someone no longer believes in Islam, it might be expected that they might try pork, just to give it a go. It does not follow then that their motivation for leaving was so they could sin (eat pork). There are all kinds of reasons people leave their faith traditions. It's too messy to make any generalizations about it. Edited January 6, 2016 by Gray
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