volgadon Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 1 hour ago, consiglieri said: In the past. Right, I'm no particular fan of the current meeting style in general, though the branch I attend is very uplifting. I'm saying that claims of exclusivity are not the causal link that you claim. 1
consiglieri Posted January 6, 2016 Author Posted January 6, 2016 59 minutes ago, smac97 said: Consig, > You made the equation, not I. ==I did not. I have neither stated nor implied that "leaving the LDS Church is the same as adultery, debauchery and being bad parents." I have no interest in gauging different forms of misconduct against each other. > Now please answer my question. ==Done. Now please answer mine. Thanks, -Smac Below is what you posted in response to what I wrote. I will let others judge whether you equated leaving the LDS Church with committing adultery, debauchery and being a bad parent. To me that was the obvious take-away. Posted 3 hours ago · Report post Quote 3 hours ago, consiglieri said: I think God can (and does) lead people out of the LDS Church and not with the goal of eventually reuniting them with the LDS Church. Do you think God can (and does) lead people to commit adultery? Do you think God can/does lead people to abandon faith in Jesus Christ? Do you think God can/does lead people to abandon their responsibilities as parents of their children in favor of a life of debauchery and free from responsibility? These are not rhetorical questions. I'd like to see your answers. Thanks, -Smac My answers to these might be a little involved, so you could you pick one to start? For example, my answer to the first would be that God does (and has) lead people to commit adultery. Within the LDS paradigm, at least.
salgare Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 2 minutes ago, smac97 said: > The church frowns on organized study groups outside of the ward building right? ==Not that I know of. Thanks, -Smac cool, good to know, thanks for setting me straight
consiglieri Posted January 6, 2016 Author Posted January 6, 2016 58 minutes ago, salgare said: I would add to this abusive to family members leaving them in parking lots while their loved ones are married. Mormons tend to be the only ones who don't have a problem with this. But there goes that "LDS paradigm" again.
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 I can't for the life of me understand why someone leaving the Church would need me to validate her/his choice unless s/he is insecure in the choice to begin with ... or, quite possibly, because there's a particular pleasure in trying to rhetorically strong-arm people into 'confirming the correctness of', 'corroborating' or 'supporting' something they fundamentally disagree with, which is how the OED defines what seems to be the underlying point of this thread. 3
The Nehor Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 2 minutes ago, consiglieri said: Mormons tend to be the only ones who don't have a problem with this. But there goes that "LDS paradigm" again. We can't help how amazing we are. 1
consiglieri Posted January 6, 2016 Author Posted January 6, 2016 42 minutes ago, saemo said: Actively excluding, ie making plans to deliberately leave someone out from a meaningful family event or activity, in order to dominate or control the person, is abuse. Downplaying the abuse is part of the abuse itself. ETA: I suppose that a LDS temple marriage can be viewed as not being a family event or activity, but an activity for an exclusive and elite group of family members. After 30+ years of trying to not feel hurt or sad, I say screw 'em. When my aged parents are gone from this world, I doubt I'll have much contact with the exclusive and elite, any longer. You will always be welcome in my church, Saemo! The First Church of Consiglieri. (A wholly owned subsidiary of the Secret Society of Cavernous Evil.) 1
consiglieri Posted January 6, 2016 Author Posted January 6, 2016 1 hour ago, Cold Steel said: Also, one cannot leave the church and grow spiritually. This is nonsense. The strange thing is that I used to believe the same thing. Until I found out for myself that one can, in fact, leave the church and grow spiritually. It is frequently a necessity.
salgare Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 5 minutes ago, The Nehor said: We can't help how amazing we are. on - 97 on - 98 on - 99 on - 100 Ok, cut it out now.
consiglieri Posted January 6, 2016 Author Posted January 6, 2016 41 minutes ago, Cold Steel said: Yes, the church can demand service, the meetings can be boring, the lessons superficial, but I have to say it's somewhat better than being mobbed, murdered and driven from our homes. Is this supposed to be an effective sales technique?
consiglieri Posted January 6, 2016 Author Posted January 6, 2016 43 minutes ago, Cold Steel said: Not taking the Sacrament, not accepting church assignments, not attending the temple or paying tithing would put one on thin ice don't you think? Why on earth do you think it would?
consiglieri Posted January 6, 2016 Author Posted January 6, 2016 41 minutes ago, Cold Steel said: Well, take it or leave it. No one's forcing you. Except with threats of eternal damnation and loss of family . . .
consiglieri Posted January 6, 2016 Author Posted January 6, 2016 40 minutes ago, Gray said: Indeed. In my experience that freedom doesn't exist in church meetings, but members are much more comfortable being frank outside that context. You have just given me a crazy idea on how to make church meetings meaningful! Nah! Never mind. Not in a million years.
consiglieri Posted January 6, 2016 Author Posted January 6, 2016 39 minutes ago, salgare said: They have my posterity imprisoned (in) Cold Steel. Fixed it for you!
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 1 minute ago, consiglieri said: Except with threats of eternal damnation and loss of family . . . Which should only worry a person who still thinks that such things are real possibilities... 2
consiglieri Posted January 6, 2016 Author Posted January 6, 2016 34 minutes ago, smac97 said: Agreed. Time and place matter. Church meetings are generally intended to uplift and edify, not to hash out doctrinal disputes, or differences of opinion about this or that socio-political issue, or to criticize the Brethren, and so on. Thanks, -Smac I hear this excuse all the time. But it doesn't wash. Church meetings may be intended to uplift and edify. But they fail spectacularly on both counts.
consiglieri Posted January 6, 2016 Author Posted January 6, 2016 32 minutes ago, Jeanne said: ColdSteel, You can grow spiritually outside the church. It is so very possible. I have a burning testimony of this principle. 1
consiglieri Posted January 6, 2016 Author Posted January 6, 2016 21 minutes ago, volgadon said: Right, I'm no particular fan of the current meeting style in general, though the branch I attend is very uplifting. I'm saying that claims of exclusivity are not the causal link that you claim. I am not saying claims of exclusivity cause church to be boring. That lies at the feet primarily of the Church Correlation Committee. 1
consiglieri Posted January 6, 2016 Author Posted January 6, 2016 18 minutes ago, The Nehor said: We can't help how amazing we are. Speak for yourself, handsome.
salgare Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Which should only worry a person who still thinks that such things are real possibilities... In families that love one another, yes the fear it tangible. http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/66700-do-apostates-go-to-spirit-prison/?do=findComment&comment=1209573077 eta: I'm surprised at how easily/quickly some can dismiss the apostate, or less active, or critic. Are these not found among your immediate and extended families? Edited January 6, 2016 by salgare
smac97 Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 (edited) 7 minutes ago, consiglieri said: I hear this excuse all the time. But it doesn't wash. Church meetings may be intended to uplift and edify. But they fail spectacularly on both counts. Reasonable minds can disagree about such things, I think. Not all LDS meetings are fonts of unending spiritual bliss, but I have had many, many, many uplifting and spiritual experiences in church meetings. Frankly, your blanket, across-the-board characterization comes across as overwrought. Thanks, -Smac Edited January 6, 2016 by smac97 1
consiglieri Posted January 6, 2016 Author Posted January 6, 2016 8 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Which should only worry a person who still thinks that such things are real possibilities... No kidding. So glad I left that far behind.
Thinking Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 2 hours ago, Ahab said: Got to do something with those who could infect others with their diseases, though. Quarantine perhaps? 2 hours ago, Ahab said: And discharging patients who want to be exed from our hospital is more like putting them in a waiting room until they decide they want to be helped by our Doctor and his staff. A patient discharging himself is quite different from being kicked out.
Ahab Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 36 minutes ago, Jeanne said: You'll find that most people who are not members of the Church believe that and feel that way. Many don't even see baptism as being necessary.
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