Handbook Update, Gay Marriage, Apostasy, Resignations... (Merged Thread)

[JLHPROF]

Who would kill themselves and settle for the Telestial Kingdom when there's the Terrestrial and 3 levels of the Celestial Kingdom to achieve.

 

The idea is it is so beautiful and glorious that it would be so much better than this life we would do anything to reach even the Telestial.

Also, many people choose a Telestial lifestyle as their ideal.

[Bobbieaware]

Actually, polygyny has been the more common marital pattern, and Jacob did not teach that strict monogamy is the usual divinely mandated practice. What he did was to point out a specific commandment to Father Lehi requiring monogamy of those under his jurisdiction (Jacob 3:5).

Upon further consideration, I must concede the Lord"s commandment to the Nephites to eschew polygamy and practice only strict monogamy was given specifically to father Lehi and meant particularly for Lehi's immediate children and their descendants. But whatever the Lord"s actual default position might be when it comes to marriage -- whether it be to normally permit his people to practice polygamy or to usually forbid it -- the fact of the matter is that there are times when the Lord commands his people to practice polygamy and there are times when he commands them (not just the literal descendants of Lehi) to practice strict monogamy. We just happen to be living in one of those "monogamy only" periods and we have been commanded to abide by that divine edict since the end of the 19th century. So today's Latter-day Saints are just like the Nephites, a people of God commanded by prophets to live under a divine dispensation of strict monogamy.

And since, according to the parable of the olive tree, beyond Lehi's group there were several other branches of the house of Israel who were, by God's command, led out of the Holy Land at the same time to set up righteous outposts of Israel in various locations throughout the world, I have every reason to expect they too were commanded to practice strict monogamy in marriage for the same reason the Nephites were: because the wicked inhabitants of the Holy Land had made an unholy mess of virtually everything, including the impure and unholy way they practiced plural marriage, a holy commandment that degenerated into little more than whoredoms (examples of which were pointed to by the Book of Mormon prophet Jacob when he singled out David's and Solomon's abuses of polygamy as whoredoms) and the Lord very likely didn't want to risk that the newly scattered branches of Israel would end up in the same sorry apostate situation as the pre-exile Jews.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[VideoGameJunkie]

If there is polygamy in heaven I hope not every good girl is taken and I'm left with no one to love.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Since my youth I've been aware of the appocryphal statement about committing suicide to get to the telestial kingdom. However its accuracy and veracity appear to be less than definitive, as this link suggests:

http://scottwoodward.org/kingdomsofglory_telestial_apocryphalstatement.html

 

Thanks for the link, Scott. This piece of folklore has never rung true to me, apparently for good reason.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Hamba Tuhan

[ERayR]

If there is polygamy in heaven I hope not every good girl is taken and I'm left with no one to love.

 

Get busy now

[Teancum]

Actually, polygyny has been the more common marital pattern, and Jacob did not teach that strict monogamy is the usual divinely mandated practice.  What he did was to point out a specific commandment to Father Lehi requiring monogamy of those under his jurisdiction (Jacob 3:5).

It was rejected in the New Testament.

Other awful things were common on the Old Testament as well...like stoning people for all sorts of minor violations.

Thank goodness much of humanity has moved on from such antiquated tribal practices. Polygamy is among those as well.

[Teancum]

If there is polygamy in heaven I hope not every good girl is taken and I'm left with no one to love.

I don't think you need to worry. Though your concern is certainly an issue for the practice polygamy in closed societies like 19th century Utah Moromonism.

[Senator]

Actually, polygyny has been the more common marital pattern, and Jacob did not teach that strict monogamy is the usual divinely mandated practice.  What he did was to point out a specific commandment to Father Lehi requiring monogamy of those under his jurisdiction (Jacob 3:5).

Wow. If what you say here sticks, I will commend you for introducing a "shift" in what has been the standard apologetic answer to the issue of polygyny, as Jacob 3:5 is always used as the go-to scripture for "monogamy is the default marital practice" argument.

[Teancum]

Wow. If what you say here sticks, I will commend you for introducing a "shift" in what has been the standard apologetic answer to the issue of polygyny, as Jacob 3:5 is always used as the go-to scripture for "monogamy is the default marital practice" argument.

The LDS church essay on plural marriage states monogamy is the default practice.

[JLHPROF]

It was rejected in the New Testament.

 

Where?  (CFR)

There is no rejection of polygamy in the NT.

[JLHPROF]

The LDS church essay on plural marriage states monogamy is the default practice.

 

And Brigham Young and his contemporaries stated polygamy was the default practice when all the laws of the gospel were being lived.

And that monogamy was the lower law.

 

If only we had recorded revelation on the subject...

[Bobbieaware]

Actually, polygyny has been the more common marital pattern, and Jacob did not teach that strict monogamy is the usual divinely mandated practice.  What he did was to point out a specific commandment to Father Lehi requiring monogamy of those under his jurisdiction (Jacob 3:5).

Robert:

Thanks to your post I found some very important and powerful Book of Mormom evidence that whoredoms (probably justified in the minds of Jerusalem's wicked male inhabitants as the practice of divinely-ordained polygamy) were a major factor in the Babylonian destruction of the Southern Kingdom and the exile of its surviving people to to Babylon...

30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things (strict monogamy).

31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people IN THE LAND OF JERUSALEM, yea, and IN ALL THE LANDS OF MY PEOPLE, because of the wickedness and ABOMINATIONS OF THEIR HUSBANDS.

32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.

33 For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, LIKE UNTO THEM OF OLD, saith the Lord of Hosts. (Jacob 2)

So it seems that though polygamy may have originally been approved of by the Lord for the inhabitants of the Holy Land, the louts who lived there ended up making an abominable mess of what was supposed to be a holy practice, and it's mainly for indulgence in the sin of adultery that Judah was destroyed. And just as significantly, one of the main reasons why the Lord commanded the Lehites to leave Jerusalem and come to the promised land was to escape from the sexual debauchery that was rotting out the moral fiber of Jerusalem and its environs..

[ERayR]

Robert:

Thanks to your post I found some very important and powerful Book of Mormom evidence that whoredoms (probably justified in the minds of Jerusalem's wicked male inhabitants as the practice of divinely-ordained polygamy) were a major factor in the Babylonian destruction of the Southern Kingdom and the exile of its surviving people to to Babylon...

30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things (strict monogamy).

31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people IN THE LAND OF JERUSALEM, yea, and IN ALL THE LANDS OF MY PEOPLE, because of the wickedness and ABOMINATIONS OF THEIR HUSBANDS.

32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.

33 For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, LIKE UNTO THEM OF OLD, saith the Lord of Hosts. (Jacob 2)

So it seems that though polygamy may have originally been approved of by the Lord for the inhabitants of the Holy Land, the louts who lived there ended up making an abominable mess of what was supposed to be a holy practice, and it's mainly for indulgence in the sin of adultery that Judah was destroyed. And just as significantly, one of the main reasons why the Lord commanded the Lehites to leave Jerusalem and come to the promised land was to escape from the sexual debauchery that was rotting out the moral fiber of Jerusalem and its environs..

 

And it is rotting the moral fiber of our great land right now.

[Scott Lloyd]

Thanks for the link, Scott. This piece of folklore has never rung true to me, apparently for good reason.

Yeah. Aside from being third-hand hearsay, it seems not to have referred specifically to the telestial kingdom.

[Scott Lloyd]

Who would kill themselves and settle for the Telestial Kingdom when there's the Terrestrial and 3 levels of the Celestial Kingdom to achieve.

And as a corollary to that, whatever joy there may be in the lower kingdoms, I should think it would be tempered by the knowledge that one had voluntarily cut himself off from receiving what the Father had in store for him.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[ERayR]

And as a corollary to that, whatever joy there may be in the lower kingdoms, I should think it would be tempered by the knowledge that one had voluntarily cut himself off from receiving what the Father had in stor for him.

 

But if one is not comfortable living a celestial life they may prefer telestial life.

[Bobbieaware]

And it is rotting the moral fiber of our great land right now.

As further evidence the reason why Lord led the Lehites our of the land of Jerusalem was that they might escape from the environment of gross sexual wickedness that prevailed there (prevalent sexual wickedness that was a primary reason why that people were fully ripened in iniquity), we have the following from the same chapter:

24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, WHICH THING WAS ABOMINABLE UNTO ME, saith the Lord.

25 Wherefore (FOR THIS REASON!), thus saith the Lord, I HAVE LED THIS PEOPLE OUT OF THE LAND OF JERUSALEM, by the power of mine arm, THAT I MIGHT RAISE UP UNTO ME A RIGJTEOUS BRANCH from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.

So it's the Lord himself who here says that he led the Lehites out of Jerusalem because of the kind of sin that was epitomized in the sexual misconduct of David and Solomon.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[ERayR]

As further evidence the reason why Lord led the Lehites our of the land of Jerusalem was that they might escape from the environment of gross sexual wickedness that prevailed there (prevalent sexual wickedness that was a primary reason why that people were fully ripened in iniquity), we have the following from the same chapter:

24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, WHICH THING WAS ABOMINABLE UNTO ME, saith the Lord.

25 Wherefore (FOR THIS REASON!), thus saith the Lord, I HAVE LED THIS PEOPLE OUT OF THE LAND OF JERUSALEM, by the power of mine arm, THAT I MIGHT RAISE UP UNTO ME A RIGJTEOUS BRANCH from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.

So it's the Lord himself who here says that he led the Lehites out of Jerusalem because of the kind of sin that was epitomized in the sexual misconduct of David and Solomon.

 

The sad thing is that there is nowhere left to get away from it.

[Bobbieaware]

The sad thing is that there is nowhere left to get away from it.

Hence the commandment of the Lord to "stand in holy places." Our temples, our meeting houses, our homes (if they are properly protected) and any place where two or more faithful and wise saints gather in the name of the Lord.

[Senator]

: because the wicked inhabitants of the Holy Land had made an unholy mess of virtually everything, including the impure and unholy way they practiced plural marriage, a holy commandment that degenerated into little more than whoredoms (examples of which were pointed to by the Book of Mormon prophet Jacob when he singled out David's and Solomon's abuses of polygamy as whoredoms) and the Lord very likely didn't want to risk that the newly scattered branches of Israel would end up in the same sorry apostate situation as the pre-exile Jews.

 

The newest revelation on the subject doesn't appear to have the Lord as condemnatory of David and Solomon's practices as you ascribe.

 

37 Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.

 38 David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me.

 39 David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord.

[Tacenda]

And as a corollary to that, whatever joy there may be in the lower kingdoms, I should think it would be tempered by the knowledge that one had voluntarily cut himself off from receiving what the Father had in stor for him.

For him?!?!    Anyway, you may think it has good things in store for you, you're male.  For women, I can't understand the things I'd be giving up.  The only thing I think it could be is to live with HF again.  But really so far if I believe as the non LDS Christian does, God is Jesus.  And I believe Jesus will be in the lower kingdoms.  And has shown up for those having NDE.  So I think I'll pass on the polygamy or the birthing of billions of babies, if it is true according to BY.  I know that it sounds like I'm spewing anti information.  But what do you know of the CK?  Really? 

[JLHPROF]

The newest revelation on the subject doesn't appear to have the Lord as condemnatory of David and Solomon's practices as you ascribe.

 

37 Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.

 38 David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me.

 39 David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord.

 

How is that not condemnatory?

[Bobbieaware]

The newest revelation on the subject doesn't appear to have the Lord as condemnatory of David and Solomon's practices as you ascribe.

37 Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.

38 David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me.

39 David’s wives and concubines were given unto him of me, by the hand of Nathan, my servant, and others of the prophets who had the keys of this power; and in none of these things did he sin against me save in the case of Uriah and his wife; and, therefore he hath fallen from his exaltation, and received his portion; and he shall not inherit them out of the world, for I gave them unto another, saith the Lord.

Your post only serves to underscore Jacob's point. The whole of David's practice of plural marriage became corrupted, including his relationships with all his previous wives, when he couldn't resist and committing adultery with Bathsheba. A transgression so serious that the best David can now hope for is a resurrection to the telestial glory. David's sad story also brings with it a strong warning that when one misuses the sacred powers of procreation even greater sins await at the door, for in order to cover up his sexual crimes and have Bathsheba to himself he murdered Bathsheba's husband Uriah. David's tale also warns us that the natural man is never sated in its lusts, as even many scores of the most beautiful women in the unified kingdom Israel weren't enough to make his carnal nature happy and satisfied.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[busybee]

And it is rotting the moral fiber of our great land right now.

Of the entire world!!

[JLHPROF]

 But what do you know of the CK?  Really? 

 

It is the kind of life that God lives - scriptures are pretty clear on what the CK involves.