Scott Lloyd Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) If Zakuska needs an anti-homosexual-sin passage from the Doctrine and Covenants, here's one: 6 Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Thou shalt not steal; neither commit adultery, nor kill, nor do anything like unto it. (Doctrine and Covenants 59:6) Edited November 25, 2015 by Scott Lloyd
Zakuska Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) If Zakuska needs an anti-homosexual-sin passage from the Doctrine and Covenants, here's one: (Doctrine and Covenants 59:6) Adultuery - Don't have sex with anyone you're not married to. Says nothing about Homosexuality or lieing with a man like you lie with a woman. The laws of this country allow gays to marry so Gods law would not convict them as long as they remained faithful in that Marriage. Gods laws are simple Scott. no Fornication (ie sex before marriage)no Adultuery (ie complete fidelity after) The "no lieing with a man as you lie with a women" in Leviticus seems to be something the Jewish Sadducees, Pharasees and scribes concocted on their own. Edited November 25, 2015 by Zakuska 1
Tsuzuki Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 If Zakuska needs an anti-homosexual-sin passage from the Doctrine and Covenants, here's one: (Doctrine and Covenants 59:6)I like how this puts adultery on the same level as killing, which we are allowed to do under certain circumstances. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 Adultuery - Don't have sex with anyone you're not married to. Says nothing about Homosexuality or lieing with a man like you lie with a woman. The "anything like unto it" phrasing takes in homosexual behavior. The laws of this country allow gays to marry so Gods law would not convict them as long as they remained faithful in that Marriage. When your scriptural interpretation conflicts with that of anointed apostles, the apostles will win every time, in my esteem. See my sig line. Here, I'll paste in the body of my post for emphasis: Sin, even if legalized by man, is still sin in the eyes of God. -- Elder Russell M. Nelson As the world slips away from the Lord’s law of chastity, we do not. -- Elder Neil L. Andersen:
JAHS Posted November 25, 2015 Author Posted November 25, 2015 Adultuery - Don't have sex with anyone you're not married to. Says nothing about Homosexuality or lieing with a man like you lie with a woman. The laws of this country allow gays to marry so Gods law would not convict them as long as they remained faithful in that Marriage. Gods laws are simple Scott. no Fornication (ie sex before marriage)no Adultuery (ie complete fidelity after) The "no lieing with a man as you lie with a women" in Leviticus seems to be something the Jewish Sadducees, Pharasees and scribes concocted on their own. Zakuska. Do you have any response to posts #5797 and #5800? Can not God reveal new things to man in our day?
Tsuzuki Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 The "anything like unto it" phrasing takes in homosexual behavior.By the same logic, "anything like unto it" could also refer to lawful sex with one's spouse of the opposite sex. As written, though, it comes after "no killing", so it most likely means "anything like unto killing".
Tsuzuki Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 Can not God reveal new things to man in our day?I believe so, which is why I accept the Book of the Law as revealed to Aleister Crowley.
Zakuska Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) The "anything like unto it" phrasing takes in homosexual behavior.What tsuzuki said."By the same logic, "anything like unto it" could also refer to lawful sex with one's spouse of the opposite sex. As written, though, it comes after "no killing", so it most likely means "anything like unto killing"." When your scriptural interpretation conflicts with that of anointed apostles, the apostles will win every time, in my esteem. See my sig line. Here, I'll paste in the body of my post for emphasis: Not according to Isaiah 8. If they claim something that Goes against scripture their being guided by the wrong spirit. Isaiah 8 19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? 20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.7 Living spirit lead prophets are not above Gods laws. If they claim to be their being led by the wrong spirit. Edited November 25, 2015 by Zakuska
Tsuzuki Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 People act as if the words of Jesus recorded in the Bible are the only things he ever said. Jesus said to his disciples:"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. (John 16: 12) He never had time to tell His apostles what those many things were before He was crucified. Perhaps we can bear them now and that is why we have latter-day prophets to help us know God's will about things like homosexuality and gay marriage; a subject that would never even have come up during the time He was on the earth.There were gay people back then. He should have said something.
Zakuska Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) People act as if the words of Jesus recorded in the Bible are the only things he ever said. Jesus said to his disciples:"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. (John 16: 12) He never had time to tell His apostles what those many things were before He was crucified. Perhaps we can bear them now and that is why we have latter-day prophets to help us know God's will about things like homosexuality and gay marriage; a subject that would never even have come up during the time He was on the earth. I always like to bring out this passage when encountering someone who has the if-it's-not-in-the-Bible-it-didn't-happen mindset: (John 21:25) The point is it IS in the Bible and we need to ask why, when its missing from the Nephite Record and that of JS, maybe it shouldn't be. Edited November 25, 2015 by Zakuska 1
JAHS Posted November 25, 2015 Author Posted November 25, 2015 I believe so, which is why I accept the Book of the Law as revealed to Aleister Crowley. "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." (Matt 7: 20)Can't think of any from him.
Tsuzuki Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." (Matt 7: 20)Can't think of any from him.I can think of lots, while I can't think of any from the current LDS leadership. But we'll just have to agree to disagree. My point was that believing in modern revelation isn't going to solve the problem by itself.
JLHPROF Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 Unfortunately that's not how God setup the Witnesses for our generation. 2 Nephi 29 Explains this law very precisely culminating in this... 8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimoney of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimoney of the two nations shall run together also. The Bible is the Stick of Judah... one Nation.The Book of Mormon is the Stick of Ephraim ... second Nation.The D&C is a third witness... a witness of the Gentile Nations. (JS and the early saints being from the gentile nations) If the Bible is telling us somethings that can't be cooberated by the other two nations testimony. Maybe we'd better be looking at the reason why. Maybe those things in conflict aren't something God actually said. IOW, If he never told the Nephite Nation Homosexuality was a sin... why did he tell the Nation on the other side of the planet it was, If he claims to give the same words to both nations? You really are just a master at twisting scripture for your own purposes. :clapping: Don't like the two covenant division, switch to the standard works division. 1
JLHPROF Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 Adultuery - Don't have sex with anyone you're not married to. Says nothing about Homosexuality or lieing with a man like you lie with a woman. The laws of this country allow gays to marry so Gods law would not convict them as long as they remained faithful in that Marriage. Nonsense. There's no such thing as gay marriage. It's just an invention of man.
JAHS Posted November 25, 2015 Author Posted November 25, 2015 There were gay people back then. He should have said something. The point is it is in the Bible and we need to ask why when its missing from the Nephite Record and that of JS. Maybe Jesus did say something but it was not recorded. And those who wrote the words in the Bible didn't think it was important enough to include it. Referring again to John 21:25. From the Nephite record:And now I, Jacob, spake many more things unto the people of Nephi, warning them against fornication and lasciviousness, and every kind of sin, telling them the awful consequences of them. (Jacob 3: 12) Fornication is fornication whether it is heterosexual or homosexual.
Zakuska Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) Nonsense. There's no such thing as gay marriage. It's just an invention of man. Polygamy was an Invention of Man too and God counted Abraham Rightouse for living it dispite his previous command. Our for fathers where also counted Righteous for living it dispite the BOM aversion to it. Edited November 25, 2015 by Zakuska
JAHS Posted November 25, 2015 Author Posted November 25, 2015 I can think of lots, while I can't think of any from the current LDS leadership. But we'll just have to agree to disagree. My point was that believing in modern revelation isn't going to solve the problem by itself. I don't see why not. There's only a problem if you don't trust and have faith in the current leadership. And if that is the case then there's not much more to say about it.
JLHPROF Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 Polygamy was an Invention of Man too and God counted Abraham Rightouse for living it dispite his previous command. Our for fathers where also counted Righteous for living it dispite the BOM aversion to it. Nope. Sorry. Polygamy is as eternal in nature as any other ordinance revealed from heaven.
Zakuska Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) Nope. Sorry. Polygamy is as eternal in nature as any other ordinance revealed from heaven. Then you disagree with our enlightened ones. Abraham obeyed a Babylonian Law known as "The Code of Hammarabi" It wasn't until he went to a strange land and obeyed its laws that God said it was ok to not fufill the command of only one wife.https://books.google.com/books?id=EUOqXeYbaHkC&pg=PA281&lpg=PA281&dq=D%26C+132:39+law&source=bl&ots=QpOwj3vfxf&sig=s0RVSg_lhKFaZuf-iA5DcepIjqo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiKpJuW1KzJAhWDWx4KHXidD88Q6AEIOTAE#v=onepage&q=D%26C%20132%3A39%20law&f=false More about that here:https://www.google.com/search?q=The+Code+of+Hammarabi&oq=The+Code+of+Hammarabi&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.295j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8 Isn't that exactly the reason our D&C gives for it? D&C 13434 God acommanded Abraham, and Sarah gave bHagar to Abraham to wife. And why did she do it? Because this was the law; and from Hagar sprang many nations. Edited November 25, 2015 by Zakuska
Hamba Tuhan Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) There were gay people back then. He should have said something. To speak of 'gay people' before the end of the 19th century is ahistorical and anachronistic. Consequently, to expect God to have said anything about gayness or same-sex marriage before the 20th century is equally ahistorical and anachronistic. Edited November 25, 2015 by Hamba Tuhan
california boy Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 Well, when you consider how many people lived before the gospel was restored and how many are still living today who will never have an opportunity to hear the message, yes I think we can say that with certainty. I believe, based on ideas heard from GA's and the scriptures, that the gospel was restored for the primary purpose of bringing the Priesthood and ordinances back to the earth and to have a people to administer these ordinances to both living and dead. Once this administration is set up the power to bring salvation to all mankind is set in motion. The fact that there are few on this earth to carry out this responsibility doesn't matter. We have to keep in mind that in heaven the missionary work is also being done to prepare people for when their ordinances are done. It is such a bigger picture then we can often comprehend. The growth in work for the dead, and especially of families gathering their own names has exploded in the last few years. My DIL who is a convert has so many names she has to have her husband take them to the temple to have others do the work. The work is truly expanding and given some of my DIL's experiences there are those on the other side helping this. Makes sense to me. It gives a perpective on why the church was even restored and how the plan of salvation really works. 1
california boy Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 To conceive of that requires the realization that we will not always be subject to the limitations of mortality. I firmly believe (and I have statements of Church leaders to back me up) that same-sex attraction is a disorder that will not last beyond mortality. Thereafter, if the husband and wife are true and faithful to the gospel principles, they will be so attractive and appealing to each other that what you have expressed above will cease to be a concern. I very much like a quotation from Brigham Young that I have used frequently in teaching and discussion: This seems to be the current church position on homosexuality. So why worry about being gay in this life or trying to overcome it if it is a disorder that will not last beyond mortality. If there is no homosexual feelings after we die, then there will also be no desire to sin after this life either. How hard will repentance be if there is no desire to commit that sin of sexual feelings with someone of the same gender. Seems like the only thing that is required is patience. I can do that. Combine that with the fact that virtually everyone dies without becoming a member of the church, it sounds like I will be pretty set. I just gotta die and everything will be perfect.
california boy Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) Of course, and this applies to nearly all humans, except that very few who have heard the Gospel and are part of the Church. This applies to all heterosexuals and homosexuals, as well as to all other persons who fit into this or that niche of physiognomy, belief, orientation, etc. All are judged based on their own particular place and time on this planet. This life is a necessary experiential hurdle. All must go through it, and many will complain of the unfairness of this or that problem they face. In your case, the pain is real, but is not significant in the long view. Your claim that "the plan of salvation is only for heterosexuals" seems rather odd in that context, almost as though you have no knowledge of LDS theology -- which can't be the case. Right? What am I missing here? You appear to be speaking out of both sides of your mouth here, based on what you have said and are still saying. Here is what you said and I responded to: QuoteWrong. The plan of salvation is for everyone. No exceptions. Homosexuals can come to LDS services unhindered, and regularly do so. They do not have to become heterosexual in order for the plan of salvation to apply. They can be baptized and hold offices and callings. They are only prohibited homosexual sex. QuoteLDS membership in the world is indeed quite small, but God has never chosen his people because they were many. Indeed, as with the Jews, his chosen people are typically small in number. Always have been. Why would we expect it to be otherwise? The plan of salvation applies to everyone ever born, and one does not have to be a member of the LDS Church in order to be exalted by God. Everyone has an equal chance. God is no respecter of persons. Where did you ever come up with such a false version of the plan of salvation? We seem to be talking past each other. Perhaps read the two responses above me to better understand where I am coming from. The question boils down to this. Will there be gay people in the Celestial Kingdom? If the answer is yes, then the plan of salvation is indeed for gay people as well as straight. If the answer is no, then the plan of salvation is only for straight people. All gays must become straight in order to be a part of the plan of salvation and be allowed to enter into the Celestial Kingdom. If they don't want to be straight, then they can not participate in the plan of salvation. So which is it? Will there be gay people in the Celestial Kingdom Yes or No Edited November 25, 2015 by california boy
JAHS Posted November 25, 2015 Author Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) We seem to be talking past each other. Perhaps read the two responses above me to better understand where I am coming from. The question boils down to this. Will there be gay people in the Celestial Kingdom? If the answer is yes, then the plan of salvation is indeed for gay people as well as straight. If the answer is no, then the plan of salvation is only for straight people. All gays must become straight in order to be a part of the plan of salvation and be allowed to enter into the Celestial Kingdom. If they don't want to be straight, then they can not participate in the plan of salvation. So which is it? Will there be gay people in the Celestial Kingdom Yes or NoAnyone who ends up in the highest level of the Celestial may or may not have been gay in mortality. Either the gay person never acted on the homosexual tendencies or they were changed with the resurrection. Either way they of course need to have been sealed to a spouse of the opposite sex. But I don't think we know enough about it to be sure how things will be there. We can only go with what our prophets tell us now. Edited November 25, 2015 by JAHS
california boy Posted November 26, 2015 Posted November 26, 2015 Anyone who ends up in the highest level of the Celestial may or may not have been gay in mortality. Either the gay person never acted on the homosexual tendencies or they were changed with the resurrection. Either way they of course need to have been sealed to a spouse of the opposite sex. But I don't think we know enough about it to be sure how things will be there. We can only go with what our prophets tell us now. You don't know how exciting it is for a gay man about the possibility of being married eternally to someone of the opposite sex. (not) Something that had absolutely no desire to do while here on earth. Sounds like a wonderful place if you are straight. Not so great if you are gay. The plan of salvation only works if you are straight. The plan of salvation seems to be making all gay children straight before they can participate. Your post continues to reinforce this teaching.
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