Handbook Update, Gay Marriage, Apostasy, Resignations... (Merged Thread)

[rockpond]

In the same sense that Satan helps out God's plan by tempting us to evil and deserving of the same amount of gratitude.

I'm being told here that the point of the policy was to send some kind of message to "thick-skulled" members who just don't get it how bad committed gay couples are. In order to send that message the policy had to be leaked and spread via social media. Seems that the prophet needed Redditt and Dehlin to make that plan work.

But for me that seems like a lot of mental gymnastics. I prefer to believe the reason stated by the Brethren.

[Russell C McGregor]

 

So in the long run, where do you think this is all headed.  Because shades of pushback against the church have already begun just like what happened on the black issue.  Saw this this morning in the news.

 

 

15 SCOTUS Gay Marriage Plaintiffs Call for PBS, Performer Boycott of Mormon Tabernacle Christmas Concert

 

 

Yes, more proof (if ever it was needed) that those who call themselves "liberal" frequently aren't.

[rockpond]

It is possible there were bishops, leaders and parents who were concerned about baptizing children who had a gay parent in general so the pokicy was issued for questions about the eligible children, so they made it clear who wouldn't be eligible (unless exceptions were made) as that would be easier (being limited to one case) than listing allthose who were.

So you're saying that the point of the policy was to clarify which children a gay parent could be baptized? Because it basically failed at that and, last time I checked, had not been updated in the handbook. Hopefully they'll fix that soon.

[JAHS]

You don't know how exciting it is for a gay man about the possibility of being married eternally to someone of the opposite sex. (not)  Something that had absolutely no desire to do while here on earth.  Sounds like a wonderful place if you are straight.  Not so great if you are gay.

 

The plan of salvation only works if you are straight.  The plan of salvation seems to be making all gay children straight before they can participate.  Your post continues to reinforce this teaching.

Yes it does. I wish I had a better answer, but that appears to be what has to happen. I only know that with God nothing is impossible.

[Russell C McGregor]

I'm being told here that the point of the policy was to send some kind of message to "thick-skulled" members who just don't get it how bad committed gay couples are. In order to send that message the policy had to be leaked and spread via social media. Seems that the prophet needed Redditt and Dehlin to make that plan work.

But for me that seems like a lot of mental gymnastics. I prefer to believe the reason stated by the Brethren.

 

Thank you, thank you.

 

And congratulations.

 

It took you long enough to come around, but better late than never.

 

I guess JAHS is right!

[Jeanne]

I am hoping someone here can help me understand something..if you feel this should be another thread, that is okay. In our mortal lives here, we have all loved and had physical love and attraction that has created a unit  If when we die and sexuality/attraction not necessary (as it changes for SSA) will those feelings change hereafter for all people in mortality?  When I see my husband, will he remember our love and why it was there?  Will it matter even that we created a family with this desire?  Those who have gone before  us..are they void of falling others there?  I am getting the feeling that according to an eternal plan, that  feelings no longer matter.  When I die..I am kinda looking forward to saying "Hi sweetheart"...did you miss me?"

[Scott Lloyd]

I am hoping someone here can help me understand something..if you feel this should be another thread, that is okay. In our mortal lives here, we have all loved and had physical love and attraction that has created a unit If when we die and sexuality/attraction not necessary (as it changes for SSA) will those feelings change hereafter for all people in mortality? When I see my husband, will he remember our love and why it was there? Will it matter even that we created a family with this desire? Those who have gone before us..are they void of falling others there? I am getting the feeling that according to an eternal plan, that feelings no longer matter. When I die..I am kinda looking forward to saying "Hi sweetheart"...did you miss me?"

I don't think it has been established that heterosexuality ceases to exist when beings are exalted. I've certainly never asserted that to be the case.

[JAHS]

I am hoping someone here can help me understand something..if you feel this should be another thread, that is okay. In our mortal lives here, we have all loved and had physical love and attraction that has created a unit  If when we die and sexuality/attraction not necessary (as it changes for SSA) will those feelings change hereafter for all people in mortality?  When I see my husband, will he remember our love and why it was there?  Will it matter even that we created a family with this desire?  Those who have gone before  us..are they void of falling others there?  I am getting the feeling that according to an eternal plan, that  feelings no longer matter.  When I die..I am kinda looking forward to saying "Hi sweetheart"...did you miss me?"

I don't think we know for sure what is "necessary" in the next life. But if we will no longer have the feelings and love that we developed here with us in the next life then what was the purpose of this life? I plan on have a very emotional and loving reunion with my parents, my wife, and daughter when I get there.

 

Brigham Young once said: 

"When you are prepared to see our Father(God), you will see a being with whom you have long been acquainted, and He will receive you into His arms, and you will be ready to fall into His embrace and kiss Him, as you would your fathers and friends that have been dead for a score of years, you will be so glad and joyful. Would you not rejoice? When you are qualified and purified, so that you can endure the glory of eternity, so that you can see your Father, and your friends who have gone behind the vail, you will fall upon their necks and kiss them, as we do an earthly friend that has been long absent from us, and that we have been anxiously desiring to see. This is the people that are and will be permitted to enjoy the society of those happy and exalted beings." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 4)

[Scott Lloyd]

This seems to be the current church position on homosexuality. So why worry about being gay in this life or trying to overcome it if it is a disorder that will not last beyond mortality. If there is no homosexual feelings after we die, then there will also be no desire to sin after this life either. How hard will repentance be if there is no desire to commit that sin of sexual feelings with someone of the same gender. Seems like the only thing that is required is patience. I can do that.

Combine that with the fact that virtually everyone dies without becoming a member of the church, it sounds like I will be pretty set. I just gotta die and everything will be perfect.

The Book of Mormon is clear on the folly of procrastinating the day of your repentance and warns that this life is the time to prepare to meet God.

[Daniel2]

Anyone who ends up in the highest level of the Celestial may or may not have been gay in mortality. Either the gay person never acted on the homosexual tendencies or they were changed with the resurrection. Either way they of course need to have been sealed to a spouse of the opposite sex. But I don't think we know enough about it to be sure how things will be there. We can only go with what our prophets tell us now. 

 

JAHS,

 

When I was a kid (prior to the end of the priesthood ban, when many members believed that dark skin was a mortal curse imposed on spirit children who were "less valiant" in the pre-mortal existence), I remember learning that no one would be black in the Celestial Kingdom, because the resurrection would 'fix' black people's skin so that they were returned to their eternal form, in which everyone what white.  At that time, many Latter-day Saints would have said something like,

 

Anyone who ends up in the highest level of the Celestial may or may not have had dark skin in mortality. Either the skin of the negrolamanite person gradually became white because of righteousness during mortality, or they were changed with the resurrection. Either way they of course would need to have chosen to repent and commit to the savior, turning away from their previous lack of valiance. But I don't think we know enough about it to be sure how things will be there. We can only go with what our prophets tell us now.

 

To today's generation of Latter-day Saints, the above likely sounds alarming, if not horrifying (it caused me discomfort when I was a kid back in the 1970's...). 

 

As people have learned to celebrate our cultural differences and value our individuality and sense of self, I imagine many Africans, African-Americans, Latinos, and Latino-Americans would be mortified, repulsed, and rather indignant at the thought that their race was the result of sin and is something that needs to be 'fixed' in the resurrection to become 'white and delightsome.'

 

I imagine this is similar to what I feel, as a gay man, at the suggestion that my ability and experience of being able to love, honor, serve, cherish, sacrifice for, value, hold sacred, and experience the most authentic emotional, spiritual, and physical intimacy of become one together is something that God would want or expect to be 'fixed.'  The thought is repulsive/nauseating to me (I know these are strong words--but I've tried thinking of something else, and nothing else seems to fit--it just emotionally/mentally/spiritually screams 'wrongness' to every fiber of my core.)  I hold my relationship with my husband as sacred--even divine.  I know that straight people find same-sex intimacy repulsive--I imagine even as much as I find the thought of being forced into straight intimacy repulsive. 

 

As a straight person, can you imagine being feeling a sense or relief and reassurance if a gay person tried to soothe your concerns about God and your lifelong relationship with your opposite-sex spouse that you shouldn't worry because God would "make you gay" in the afterlife, and that you'll find new love and a new relationship with a loving same-sex spouse?  I imagine it's almost offensive.  The straight people I know and respect value their marriages as the most important relationship they have, in this life--a priority even more important than their relationship with their children.  What you suggest sounds like nothing less than an emotional and spiritual lobotomy--and that holds little comfort, reassurance, or even an ability to respect the divinity of any such being.

 

I apologize if the above sounds harsh--it just feels... belittling and demeaning...?... to be told by the straight majority that we gays shouldn't worry and we should feel relieved because God is straight like you are all straight, and someday, we'll be lucky enough to be fixed just like you, if we try hard enough and deny ourselves enough (I understand no offense is intended--which is why I've tried not to attack you or others personally, as well). 

Edited November 26, 2015 by Daniel2

[Scott Lloyd]

Yes, more proof (if ever it was needed) that those who call themselves "liberal" frequently aren't.

And more evidence of the intent of extremists in the juggernaut to assume a scorched earth policy and not to rest until they've punished and persecuted the Church of Jesus Christ out of existence.

These hypocrites don't want fairness. Short of total capitulation to their demands they want all-out annihilation of Mormonism.

They don't have any use for the Church of Jesus Christ themselves, yet they refuse to let us alone to exercise our religious liberties in peace, even after they've gotten what they want. They are moving beyond the realm of civil and human rights for themselves and have begun to encroach on the religious liberties of others.

I don't say this sort of thing often, but I am feeling utter contempt for them at this moment.

Edited November 26, 2015 by Scott Lloyd

[Jeanne]

I don't think it has been established that heterosexuality ceases to exist when beings are exalted. I've certainly never asserted that to be the case.

Thank you,,like,,,thank you very much!  For a while there I was beginning to think love wasn't going to matter.  Now..I would like love to matter for everyone.

Edited November 26, 2015 by Jeanne

[JLHPROF]

Thank you,,like,,,thank you very much!  For a while there I was beginning to think love wasn't going to matter.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGpFcHTxjZs

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Jeanne]

 

I don't think we know for sure what is "necessary" in the next life. But if we will no longer have the feelings and love that we developed here with us in the next life then what was the purpose of this life? I plan on have a very emotional and loving reunion with my parents, my wife, and daughter when I get there.

 

Brigham Young once said: 

"When you are prepared to see our Father(God), you will see a being with whom you have long been acquainted, and He will receive you into His arms, and you will be ready to fall into His embrace and kiss Him, as you would your fathers and friends that have been dead for a score of years, you will be so glad and joyful. Would you not rejoice? When you are qualified and purified, so that you can endure the glory of eternity, so that you can see your Father, and your friends who have gone behind the vail, you will fall upon their necks and kiss them, as we do an earthly friend that has been long absent from us, and that we have been anxiously desiring to see. This is the people that are and will be permitted to enjoy the society of those happy and exalted beings." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 4)

 

That is what I thought too..what ever would be the purpose of this life.  So for like Daniel2..shouldn't that matter also?  The love and commitment part..why fix that?

[Mystery Meat]

As a straight person, can you imagine being feeling a sense or relief and reassurance if a gay person tried to soothe your concerns about God and your lifelong relationship with your opposite-sex spouse that you shouldn't worry because God would "make you gay" in the afterlife, and that you'll find new love and a new relationship with a loving same-sex spouse?  I imagine it's almost offensive.  The straight people I know and respect value their marriages as the most important relationship they have, in this life--a priority even more important than their relationship with their children.  What you suggest sounds like nothing less than an emotional and spiritual lobotomy--and that holds little comfort, reassurance, or even an ability to respect the divinity of any such being.

 

I trust God enough that if his prophets and apostles told me (and it was backed by scripture) that I would be gay in the next life and that that would make me the most happy I could accept it with faith and press forward, looking towards the day when God would make everything right (even if right meant being gay). I don't think it is all that different from what we are asked to do anyway as members of a Church that still has the doctrine of polygamy in play. I do not like the idea of polygamy. The thought of breaking my sweetheart's heart because of a polygamous relationship makes me feel quite disgusted. Yet, I do not worry all that much about it. If I am to be an eternal polygamist, I will trust that God knows a lot more about eternal happiness than I do and will look forward to further light on the matter. So I am not sure why this is so offensive to suggest that any gay man or woman who qualifies for the Celestial Kingdom will have the natural man completed rooted out of them, including any homosexuality.

[Jeanne]

JAHS,

 

When I was a kid (prior to the end of the priesthood ban, when many members believed that dark skin was a mortal curse imposed on spirit children who were "less valiant" in the pre-mortal existence), I remember learning that no one would be black in the Celestial Kingdom, because the resurrection would 'fix' black people's skin so that they were returned to their eternal form, in which everyone what white.  At that time, many Latter-day Saints would have said something like,

 

Anyone who ends up in the highest level of the Celestial may or may not have had dark skin in mortality. Either the skin of the negrolamanite person gradually became white because of righteousness during mortality, or they were changed with the resurrection. Either way they of course would need to have chosen to repent and commit to the savior, turning away from their previous lack of valiance. But I don't think we know enough about it to be sure how things will be there. We can only go with what our prophets tell us now.

 

To today's generation of Latter-day Saints, the above likely sounds alarming, if not horrifying (it caused me discomfort when I was a kid back in the 1970's...). 

 

As people have learned to celebrate our cultural differences and value our individuality and sense of self, I imagine many Africans, African-Americans, Latinos, and Latino-Americans would be mortified, repulsed, and rather indignant at the thought that their race was the result of sin and is something that needs to be 'fixed' in the resurrection to become 'white and delightsome.'

 

I imagine this is similar to what I feel, as a gay man, at the suggestion that my ability and experience of being able to love, honor, serve, cherish, sacrifice for, value, hold sacred, and experience the most authentic emotional, spiritual, and physical intimacy of become one together is something that God would want or expect to be 'fixed.'  The thought is repulsive/nauseating to me (I know these are strong words--but I've tried thinking of something else, and nothing else seems to fit--it just emotionally/mentally/spiritually screams 'wrongness' to every fiber of my core.)  I hold my relationship with my husband as sacred--even divine.  I know that straight people find same-sex intimacy repulsive--I imagine even as much as I find the thought of being forced into straight intimacy repulsive. 

 

As a straight person, can you imagine being feeling a sense or relief and reassurance if a gay person tried to soothe your concerns about God and your lifelong relationship with your opposite-sex spouse that you shouldn't worry because God would "make you gay" in the afterlife, and that you'll find new love and a new relationship with a loving same-sex spouse?  I imagine it's almost offensive.  The straight people I know and respect value their marriages as the most important relationship they have, in this life--a priority even more important than their relationship with their children.  What you suggest sounds like nothing less than an emotional and spiritual lobotomy--and that holds little comfort, reassurance, or even an ability to respect the divinity of any such being.

 

I apologize if the above sounds harsh--it just feels... belittling and demeaning...?... to be told by the straight majority that we gays shouldn't worry and we should feel relieved because God is straight like you are all straight, and someday, we'll be lucky enough to be fixed just like you, if we try hard enough and deny ourselves enough (I understand no offense is intended--which is why I've tried not to attack you or others personally, as well). 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGpFcHTxjZs

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Oh,don't be sorry...love the song. 

[JAHS]

JAHS,

 

When I was a kid (prior to the end of the priesthood ban, when many members believed that dark skin was a mortal curse imposed on spirit children who were "less valiant" in the pre-mortal existence), I remember learning that no one would be black in the Celestial Kingdom, because the resurrection would 'fix' black people's skin so that they were returned to their eternal form, in which everyone what white.  At that time, many Latter-day Saints would have said something like,

 

Anyone who ends up in the highest level of the Celestial may or may not have had dark skin in mortality. Either the skin of the negrolamanite person gradually became white because of righteousness during mortality, or they were changed with the resurrection. Either way they of course would need to have chosen to repent and commit to the savior, turning away from their previous lack of valiance. But I don't think we know enough about it to be sure how things will be there. We can only go with what our prophets tell us now.

 

To today's generation of Latter-day Saints, the above likely sounds alarming, if not horrifying (it caused me discomfort when I was a kid back in the 1970's...). 

 

As people have learned to celebrate our cultural differences and value our individuality and sense of self, I imagine many Africans, African-Americans, Latinos, and Latino-Americans would be mortified, repulsed, and rather indignant at the thought that their race was the result of sin and is something that needs to be 'fixed' in the resurrection to become 'white and delightsome.'

 

I imagine this is similar to what I feel, as a gay man, at the suggestion that my ability and experience of being able to love, honor, serve, cherish, sacrifice for, value, hold sacred, and experience the most authentic emotional, spiritual, and physical intimacy of become one together is something that God would want or expect to be 'fixed.'  The thought is repulsive/nauseating to me (I know these are strong words--but I've tried thinking of something else, and nothing else seems to fit--it just emotionally/mentally/spiritually screams 'wrongness' to every fiber of my core.)  I hold my relationship with my husband as sacred--even divine.  I know that straight people find same-sex intimacy repulsive--I imagine even as much as I find the thought of being forced into straight intimacy repulsive. 

 

As a straight person, can you imagine being feeling a sense or relief and reassurance if a gay person tried to soothe your concerns about God and your lifelong relationship with your opposite-sex spouse that you shouldn't worry because God would "make you gay" in the afterlife, and that you'll find new love and a new relationship with a loving same-sex spouse?  I imagine it's almost offensive.  The straight people I know and respect value their marriages as the most important relationship they have, in this life--a priority even more important than their relationship with their children.  What you suggest sounds like nothing less than an emotional and spiritual lobotomy--and that holds little comfort, reassurance, or even an ability to respect the divinity of any such being.

 

I apologize if the above sounds harsh--it just feels... belittling and demeaning...?... to be told by the straight majority that we gays shouldn't worry and we should feel relieved because God is straight like you are all straight, and someday, we'll be lucky enough to be fixed just like you, if we try hard enough and deny ourselves enough (I understand no offense is intended--which is why I've tried not to attack you or others personally, as well). 

I don't think you are being harsh, I hear your pain and frustration, but I can only answer the question based on what I know and what God has revealed to us so far on the subject. Gay people keep asking these questions, do they really expect an answer they will like?

I guess we should just stop trying to explain something we know so little about. 

In my opinion just keep doing what you feel is right and we will see what happens in the end. Somehow God will give all those who desire it a chance for eternal life. Sorry, I really have no idea what that "somehow" is.

[JAHS]

That is what I thought too..what ever would be the purpose of this life.  So for like Daniel2..shouldn't that matter also?  The love and commitment part..why fix that?

There's no need to fix any love or commitment; that can continue. But to be sealed for eternity and be exalted; that can only happen between man and woman.

[Daniel2]

My husband and I have attended the Tabernacle Choir Christmas Concert every year since we started dating almost five years ago...

 

We hope this year will be no different--although the tickets seem MUCH harder to get, this year!

[Scott Lloyd]

My husband and I have attended the Tabernacle Choir Christmas Concert every year since we started dating almost five years ago...

We hope this year will be no different--although the tickets seem MUCH harder to get, this year!

If it makes you feel any better (probably won't) my family couldn't get any this year or last year. I'll go to it to cover it but will probably have to sit in the media room.

[Russell C McGregor]

Every body knows the 8th Article of Faith:

 

8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly;

 

So have our KJV interpreters really got things right for us?

 

I'd like to go over something Paul wrote, he gave a list of people who won't inherit the kingdom of heaven.

 

1 Corinthians 9

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?

Be not deceived:

neither fornicators,

nor idolaters,

nor adulterers,

nor effeminate

nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

nor thieves,

nor covetous,

nor drunkards,

nor revilers,

nor extortioners,

shall inherit the kingdom of God.

And such were some of you:

but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

 

Here Paul gives us a list of sins and unabashedly tells us that there were members of the church who lived a gay lifestyle at least up to the point they got baptised.

Well, they might have been.

Or they might have been idolaters, adulterers, thieves, drunkards etc.

 

So I went and looked up those words in the Greek and Strongs... Lexicon:

 

Why would Paul be condeming a soft docile "boy" as being a sinner?

 

And then something caught my eye... "pederast" in 2a1. What is that word?

 

So I looked it up on Google...

 

 

And sure enough... its talking about gay sex right?

 

You might think that but you would be wrong.  This is talking about a specific type of relationship between Male partners.  Its right in the definition.

 

"relationship between an adult male and a pubescent or adolescent male"

 

I submit that with this information in mind the KJV rendering of "effeminate" is a very poor rendering indeed, considering the context and meaning. I further submit that God wouldn't codemn the "Abused" in such a relationship (ie the pubescent or adolescent boy).

Thank you for your opinion. However, the testimony of Scripture, contrary to what you assume God "wouldn't" do, is that they were condemned.

Malakoi -- "soft ones" -- are catamites.

Let us accept from the outset that pederasty is the most common manifestation of male homosexual behaviour. For example, the Stonewall riots, which are annually celebrated in "gay pride" parades, were started because of police raids on a dive called the "Stonewall Inn." It was just an innocent "gay" bar, according to the proud ones. Actually it was a centre for male prostitution -- i.e. paid pederasty -- and drug peddling, and was run by a criminal gang.

Just an innocent "gay" bar, right? Or not?

Some might say not; but then again, if the Stonewall Inn doesn't qualify as innocent, what "gay" bar does?

It's a bit like the adoration of Harvey Milk. Some say he shouldn't be held up as a gay hero, because he was a convicted pederast. But if pederasts can't be gay heroes, are there any candidates left?

In Paul's day, adolescence hadn't yet been infantilized. A boy became a man at 13. A Malakos was responsible for his choices.

 

This would actually be better rendered as: 

 

  PEDOPHILE

 

In fact Pedastre comes from the same root as the English word PEDOPHILE.

Sorry Zak, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. If homosexuality <> pedophilia, then pederasty <> pedophilia, because male homosexuality absolutely includes pederasty.

 

The next word is...

 

 

And its used in this part of what Paul said "abusers of themselves with mankind".

 

I thought to myself... This definately is about gay sex right? It's gotta be. Surely.

 

But then I looked the word up on Google and this was among the definitions.

 

Here again we have the Older/Dominant Male in a male-male relationship identified.

Could this be talking about Pedofilia again?

No.

Because that gets back to the same redundancy you were worried about earlier.

Arsenokoitai are male homosexuals, simpliciter.

It comes from two Greek roots: Arsenos, which means "male," and koiten, which means to have sexual relations -- it actually descends into English via Latin as "coitus." The combined noun, Arsenokoiten, is masculine. So it denotes a male who has sexual relations with other males.

A homosexual, IOW.

 

Then I found out that "Arsenokoitēs" has been used through history to also identify a certian type of Male-Female sexual relationship.

Has it?

Call for references, please.

Thank you for demonstrating the technique of wresting the scriptures.

[carbon dioxide]

So which is it?  Will there be gay people in the Celestial Kingdom  Yes or No

I say no.  The natural man is an enemy to God.  All of our natural instincts, passions, ect that are contrary to God's laws will be eliminated in the resurrection.  Nobody will be dealing with any of these weaknesses that we are afflicted with in  mortality in the resurrection.  Whether it be homosexuality, heterosexuals who desire another man's wife, or other ungodly passions, they will be gone. I don't believe there will be any of this in the lower kingdoms either.  I see no indication that sexual orientation existed in the premortal world either. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

All gays must become straight in order to be a part of the plan of salvation and be allowed to enter into the Celestial Kingdom.

 

Although I find the specific terminology misleading, what you seem to be describing here is one facet of the broad reality facing every single person who wishes to enter into the Celestial Kingdom. The plan is denominated 'of salvation' for a reason: each one of us must be saved/rescued, both from the blood and sins of a fallen, corrupt world and from our own fallen, rebellious, imperfect and ungodly natures. Absolutely no one is inherently suited or fit to dwell in the presence of God; we all have to become something/someone else.

 

And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters; and thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God (Mosiah 27:25-26).

 

An unwillingness to accept this invitation to be changed will prove as damning to me as it will to anyone else who wishes simply to remain as s/he is.

 

Now I say unto you that ye must repent, and be born again; for the Spirit saith if ye are not born again ye cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven ... Yea, I say unto you come and fear not, and lay aside every sin, which easily doth beset you, which doth bind you down to destruction (Alma 7:14-15).

 

And for every single one of us, this process requires a willingness to believe that real change is both possible and desirable.

 

Do ye exercise faith in the redemption of him who created you? Do you look forward with an eye of faith, and view this mortal body raised in immortality, and this corruption raised in incorruption, to stand before God to be judged according to the deeds which have been done in the mortal body? I say unto you, can you imagine to yourselves that ye hear the voice of the Lord, saying unto you, in that day: Come unto me ye blessed, for behold, your works have been the works of righteousness upon the face of the earth? (Alma 5:15-16)

 

[Robert F. Smith]

This seems to be the current church position on homosexuality.  So why worry about being gay in this life or trying to overcome it if it is a disorder that will not last beyond mortality.  If there is no homosexual feelings after we die, then there will also be no desire to sin after this life either.  How hard will repentance be if there is no desire to commit that sin of sexual feelings with someone of the same gender.  Seems like the only thing that is required is patience.  I can do that.

 

Combine that with the fact that virtually everyone dies without becoming a member of the church, it sounds like I will be pretty set.  I just gotta die and everything will be perfect.  

Yeh, but you misunderstand the plan of salvation:  It applies to everyone, everywhere, and at every time.  Paul said that they who have not the law of the Gospel are a law unto themselves, which means that those not hearing the Gospel are judged by adherence and obedience to the customs and laws of the culture to which they belong -- all through time.  You have heard the Gospel, but those who have not must be assessed based on their attention to their own consciences.

 

Presumably, that means for Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle, that they are judged based on the mores of the day, which included the normalcy of homosexual activity, in addition to heterosexual marriage.  The Gospel was not preached in Classical Greece.

[JLHPROF]

So which is it?  Will there be gay people in the Celestial Kingdom  Yes or No

 

No.