Noticed D. Michael Quinn's New Book On Pre-Order

[rpn]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1560852356?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=ox_sc_act_title_1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

[sunstoned]

I have been waiting for this installment to come out.  I like Quinn, and have read all of his books.

[Robert F. Smith]

The third volume in a very important series by Quinn, and certainly to be read in the context of Leonard Arrington's pathbreaking work on Mormon economic history and structure.

[Tacenda]

The third volume in a very important series by Quinn, and certainly to be read in the context of Leonard Arrington's pathbreaking work on Mormon economic history and structure.

This book might not be too flattering for the church and how they spend the money.

[Bobbieaware]

This book might not be too flattering for the church and how they spend the money.

I wonder if you are aware of the fact that in order to fulfill many of the prophesies of scripture the Church must become a totally independent economic entity before the Second Coming of Christ? As the world continues to ripen in iniquity, there will be worse and worse economic difficulties to pass through, even the likelihood of global economic depressions, so the Church MUST have substantial funds and holdings so that it will be able to successfully weather the coming storms of widespread economic reversal.

The Lord has commanded the Church to prepare for the last days, that time prophesied by the prophets when the horrors of constant warfare, terrible disease epidemics, numerous cataclysmic natural disasters and devastating economic failures will descend as judgements upon a wicked world. In the midst of all this debilitating tribulation, the Church is going to build the city of Zion, and the stakes of Zion will also have to be strengthened to stand against the storm. Therefore, like it or not, the Church is going to have to maintain a strong and prosperous economic position if it's going to fulfill its divine destiny.

The scriptures prophesy the Church and kingdom of God WILL weather the coming trials and come off triumphant against all odds. And when that day comes, the complainers and naysayers will be humbled to the dust and wonder in amazement that they ever allowed themselves to be deluded into believing the living apostles and prophets of Jesus Christ acted in greed. There is no way the Church is going to be able to fulfill the following prophecy unless it's kept on a sound and wise economic footing...

13 Behold, this is the preparation wherewith I prepare you, and the foundation, and the ensample which I give unto you, whereby you may accomplish the commandments which are given you;

14 That through my providence, notwithstanding the tribulation which shall descend upon you, THAT THE CHURCH MAY STAND INDEPENDENT ABOVE ALL OTHER CREATURES BENEATH THE CELESTIAL WORLD. (D&C 78)

[The Nehor]

He wrote another book? The Danites are really slacking off lately.

[Robert F. Smith]

This book might not be too flattering for the church and how they spend the money.

On the other hand, it may be very flattering in the practical sense.  Understanding Mormon economic history is very important, and the truth is unlikely to harm God and His Church.

 

For perspective, bear in  mind that the sum total of all the work of the Tanners was to strengthen the LDS Church -- something they never intended.

[theplains]

I wonder if you are aware of the fact that in order to fulfill many of the prophesies of scripture the Church must become a totally independent economic entity before the Second Coming of Christ? As the world continues to ripen in iniquity, there will be worse and worse economic difficulties to pass through, even the likelihood of global economic depressions, so the Church MUST have substantial funds and holdings so that it will be able to successfully weather the coming storms of widespread economic reversal.

 

All financial instruments, whether held by Mormons or non-Mormons alike, will plunge in value

during a recession or depression.  Unless of course the Mormons are massively 'short' the market

when the plunge happens (meaning they will reap huge profits).  If you have proof that Mormons

were immune to the 1929 stock market crash and the depression that followed, please do tell.

 

Regards,

Jim

[sunstoned]

This book might not be too flattering for the church and how they spend the money.

If it is well sourced then I will be interested regardless of how the church looks.  Open and honest scrutiny is the best policy. 

[Tacenda]

If it is well sourced then I will be interested regardless of how the church looks. Open and honest scrutiny is the best policy.

I have a feeling the book might scrutinize the church on how they spend the money and how wasteful it can be. I guess that's more what I meant as far as not flattering to the church. For instance like spending the money because it's there, and them not seeing or realizing that some of the very poorest sacrifice a great deal to pay 10% of their income. ETA: Them, as in not necessarily the leaders but employees of the church, such as in the PR department, church videos, church productions...there's too many to list. But I do know of a few instances of waste. So I wonder if Quinn will include something like that in the book. Edited November 23, 2015 by Tacenda

[Bobbieaware]

All financial instruments, whether held by Mormons or non-Mormons alike, will plunge in value

during a recession or depression. Unless of course the Mormons are massively 'short' the market

when the plunge happens (meaning they will reap huge profits). If you have proof that Mormons

were immune to the 1929 stock market crash and the depression that followed, please do tell.

Regards,

Jim

Not all wealth is in the form of paper money and book keeping entries. And it most certainly cannot hurt that the Church is solvent and owns all of its properties and holdings free and clear.

I believe the prophecies that Zion and her stakes will be successfully built and prosper in the midst of the great tribulation of the last days, and that the day will come when the kingdom of God on earth will stand economically independent above all things beneath the celestial world. And I also believe the prophecies that promise the Latter-day Saints who remain faithful will, through the power and gifts of God, be made more than equal to the task of coming off triumphant against all their foes.

Do you believe the LDS Church would be better off at this moment in time if it were drowning under a sea of debt?

Edited November 23, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Robert F. Smith]

I have a feeling the book might scrutinize the church on how they spend the money and how wasteful it can be. I guess that's more what I meant as far as not flattering to the church. For instance like spending the money because it's there, and them not seeing or realizing that some of the very poorest sacrifice a great deal to pay 10% of their income. ETA: Them, as in not necessarily the leaders but employees of the church, such as in the PR department, church videos, church productions...there's too many to list. But I do know of a few instances of waste. So I wonder if Quinn will include something like that in the book.

Whatever waste or chicanery their might be will probably be included, and should be.  However, you make a wealth of assumptions here, Tacenda, and you haven't even read the book yet.  Might be nice to suspend judgment long enough to consider the evidence.  The evidence I have seen shows the LDS effort far more generous than other Churches.  See my “LDS Church Welfare Expenditures,” 2012, online at http://www.scribd.com/doc/107498713/LDS-Church-Welfare-Expenditures.

[Hamba Tuhan]

But I do know of a few instances of waste. So I wonder if Quinn will include something like that in the book.

 

Did you send him your insider information so that he could include it???

[theplains]

Not all wealth is in the form of paper money and book keeping entries. And it most certainly cannot hurt that the Church is solvent and owns all of its properties and holdings free and clear.

I believe the prophecies that Zion and her stakes will be successfully built and prosper in the midst of the great tribulation of the last days, and that the day will come when the kingdom of God on earth will stand economically independent above all things beneath the celestial world. And I also believe the prophecies that promise the Latter-day Saints who remain faithful will, through the power and gifts of God, be made more than equal to the task of coming off triumphant against all their foes.

Do you believe the LDS Church would be better off at this moment in time if it were drowning under a sea of debt?

 

I do not know the overall financial status (net asset - net debt) of the LDS Church so I can't say

that it owns things free and clear.  Drowning under a sea of debt is never a good thing.

 

I have never heard of any prophecies that the LDS Church will stand economically independent

above all things beneath the celestial world.  I don't adhere to the prosperity gospel.

 

Thanks,

Jim

[Bobbieaware]

I do not know the overall financial status (net asset - net debt) of the LDS Church so I can't say

that it owns things free and clear. Drowning under a sea of debt is never a good thing.

I have never heard of any prophecies that the LDS Church will stand economically independent

above all things beneath the celestial world. I don't adhere to the prosperity gospel.

Thanks,

Jim

Read Doctrine and Covenants 78 and Apostle Bruce R McConkie's April 1979 General Conference address, "Stand Independent Above All Other Creatures," and you won't have to be ignorant any longer.

If the LDS Church succeeds in building Zion -- and I believe it will -- there will an independent political and economic kingdom on earth prepared to meet the Savior at his Second Coming. That independent kingdom will rise as the rest of the rest of the world's kingdoms fail and fall because of the judgements of God that will be poured out upon them because of unrepented wickedness. The triumph of Zion will have nothing to do with the grotesque modern prosperity gospel. We simply believe God is able to save his people from both spiritual and temporal ruin.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Tacenda]

Did you send him your insider information so that he could include it???

No, I'm sure he got plenty from other sources. Maybe to some his book will be faith promoting. But the impression I got, from what others have said, it's not. But maybe Quinn changed it or it never was critical and I misunderstood.

[Hamba Tuhan]

No, I'm sure he got plenty from other sources. Maybe to some his book will be faith promoting. But the impression I got, from what others have said, it's not. But maybe Quinn changed it or it never was critical and I misunderstood.

 

Well, if it's not critical enough for your liking, it sounds like you only have yourself to blame.

[Tacenda]

Well, if it's not critical enough for your liking, it sounds like you only have yourself to blame.

Yeah, you're right.

[theplains]

Read Doctrine and Covenants 78 and Apostle Bruce R McConkie's April 1979 General Conference address, "Stand Independent Above All Other Creatures," and you won't have to be ignorant any longer.

 

Thank you for those references.  I had a question and an observation on two sections of his

speech.

 

"To help care for the poor among them the Church must operate farms, grow vineyards, run

dairies, manage factories, and ten thousand other things—all in such a way as to be

independent of the powers of evil in the world."

 

So, its a sin for a Mormon to drink wine but okay to sell it to non-Mormons so they can drink

it?

 

“Nevertheless, Zion shall escape if she observe to do all things whatsoever I have commanded

her,” saith the Lord. But if she observe not to do whatsoever I have commanded her, I will visit 

her according to all her works, with sore affliction, with pestilence, with plague, with sword, with

vengeance, with devouring fire.” (D&C 97:23, 25–26.)"

 

Apart from the prosperity gospel you propose, there is a voice of warning for the rebellious

Latter-day Saints.

 

Regards,

Jim

[Bobbieaware]

Thank you for those references.  I had a question and an observation on two sections of his

speech.

 

"To help care for the poor among them the Church must operate farms, grow vineyards, run

dairies, manage factories, and ten thousand other things—all in such a way as to be

independent of the powers of evil in the world."

 

So, its a sin for a Mormon to drink wine but okay to sell it to non-Mormons so they can drink

it?

 

“Nevertheless, Zion shall escape if she observe to do all things whatsoever I have commanded

her,” saith the Lord. But if she observe not to do whatsoever I have commanded her, I will visit 

her according to all her works, with sore affliction, with pestilence, with plague, with sword, with

vengeance, with devouring fire.” (D&C 97:23, 25–26.)"

 

Apart from the prosperity gospel you propose, there is a voice of warning for the rebellious

Latter-day Saints.

 

Regards,

Jim

Why are you conflating the Lord's promise that he would both spiritually and temporally preserve his people during a time of great want with adhering to the "prosperity gospel?" Just because the Lord assured his saints he"s going to spiritually AND TEMPORALLY preserve many of them during the time of the great tribulation doesn't mean they will be living in overflowing wealth and opulence. The saints are only promised that in the midst of the storms of the latter-days they will have the necessities needed to preserve life. Tha't a far cry from the grotesque "prosperity gospel" which you wrongfully accuse the Latter-day Saints of practicing.

You lose credibility when you all too quickly move to put a negative spin on anything and everything having to do with Mormonism. It's like you've made up your mind and now everything you find in the LDS Church has to somehow be forced to fit into the mold of your preconceived notions.

Wine drinking is only a sin to those who have received the greater light and knowledge that comes along with becoming a spiritually filled Latter-day Saint. Those who are not members of the LDS Church, and therefore have not put themselves under the covenant to obey the word of wisdom, are perfectly entitled to enjoy their legally permitted enjoyments without members of the LDS Church self-righteously pushing their religious beliefs and commitments on them. The Lord has commanded us to be in the world but not be of the world -- not to run away from the world altogether and keep only to ourselves.

[rpn]

I don't think the church grows grapes for anything but raisins.   Whether that is still called a vineyard, I don't know.

 

And I'm also not sure that Quinn's historical books can fairly be descrbed as critical.  Sure they are lately about financial things.  But that shouldn't suggest "being critical" automatically.  Historians often reach different conclusions interpreting the same data.   

Edited November 26, 2015 by rpn

[Calm]

Possibly vinegars, jams and jelly, fruit rolls, grape juice for both straight and added to other stuff as flavouring could be done as well as well.

Edited November 26, 2015 by Calm

[Hamba Tuhan]

One of the Church's vineyards:

 

Edited November 27, 2015 by Hamba Tuhan