Steve-o Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 "the persons responsible for this decision should consult with each other and with their bishop and should receive divine confirmation of their decision through prayer."The handbook does not say do give up your agency and make the bishop decide what you should do. It doesn't say that you should not pray and come to your own decision. In fact it says exactly the opposite. Consult with the bishop, pray, and then make an inspired decision.But why would someone consult with a bishop on such a thing in the first place? Why would someone even think to do that unless they thought there was some expectation that they should. The idea that they would or should is the problem for me. I understand everyone is different but it seems like it would be beneficial to not even have the expectation or the option to get answers to major life questions from a bishop. That just seem very foreign to me.
ksfisher Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 (edited) But why would someone consult with a bishop on such a thing in the first place? Why would someone even think to do that unless they thought there was some expectation that they should. The idea that they would or should is the problem for me. I understand everyone is different but it seems like it would be beneficial to not even have the expectation or the option to get answers to major life questions from a bishop. That just seem very foreign to me. Why talk to your bishop? Advice. Someone to talk over a major life decision with. Possibly something he may say may help you to consider the decision in a different light. If we're contemplating such a major decision shouldn't we take advantage of all of the resources that our Father in Heaven has given to help us? These include prayer, the scriptures, patriarchal blessings, parents, and church leaders. Edited November 3, 2015 by ksfisher
Calm Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 (edited) But why would someone consult with a bishop on such a thing in the first place? Why would someone even think to do that unless they thought there was some expectation that they should. The idea that they would or should is the problem for me. I understand everyone is different but it seems like it would be beneficial to not even have the expectation or the option to get answers to major life questions from a bishop. That just seem very foreign to me.I have heard from a lot of former bishops they get asked all sorts of questions. Have you ever heard any suggestion in our teachings that you should consult the bishop on what kind of car you should buy? I never have and yet I know that has been asked a few times at least of bishops.Some people look to others, especially those in authority to share the reponsibility of making decisions for them, even in nonrelgious settings. For some, it may be they are new to the situation they are in and they don't want to make mistakes. Others seem to need someone to shoulder the responsibility for them as choice can be a real burden, especially if one has anxiety or depression issues or reasons one doesn't trust one's own judgment or experiences. FairMormon gets asked from time to time "is this immoral" or "should I do this?" questions, whisch we graciously refuse to answer for them. I can just imagine how much more common that is for bishops.Also when there is a cultural shift of behaviour standards, not everyone shifts at once. In the past sterilization was not as easily or safely available, death of spouses and children more common, etc. so community opinion was against sterilization except in extreme cases of mental unfitness from what I've read. Doctors could even be kicked out for teaching birth control methods. Women groups were ostracized for even suggesting women had a right to say no to their husbands in many places. From what I've read this attitude towards sterilization was also present in the LDS community. By now the attitude has shifted in many places to a woman having complete choice over reproductive rights so it seems weird that anyone would ask a bishop what the rules were.There is a lot in the Handbook that is there based on experience. Experience changes but stuff may be kept in the Handbook because people and communities' attitudes change at different rates. Back in the 50s, 60s and 70s attitudes in the US in and out of the Church towards birth control changed a lot as the options became better and widely available and there was a huge variation of experience and opinion that developed among members. By the 80s younger couples weren't wondering about possibilities, there wasn't much debate going on and those who asked were being told birth control at least was between them and God. Eventually the idea that the question might even be there has disappeared for the vast majority for all forms of birth control, even the permanent ones.Maybe there are places in the Church that are having the experience that took place 50 years ago for American Saints. Maybe there are still enough of those who feel they need reality checks or advice or reassurance from others, that it still needs to be in the Handbook for every bishop who wants to be sure to meet the needs of those who come to them for help. Edited November 3, 2015 by Calm
ksfisher Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 I have heard from a lot of former bishops they get asked all sorts of questions.Some people look to others, especially those in authority to share the reponsibility of making decisions for them, even in nonrelgious settings. For some, it may be they are new to the situation they are in and they don't want to make mistakes. Others seem to need someone to shoulder the responsibility for them as choice can be a real burden, especially if one has anxiety or depression issues or reasons one doesn't trust one's own judgment or experiences.FairMormon gets asked from time to time "is this immoral" or "should I do this?" questions, whisch we graciously refuse to answer for them. I can just imagine how much more common that is for bishops. Related, but on a bit of a tangent, a bishop in my stake once told me that on becoming bishop his father (a former bishop) told him that the more you let people talk the more likely they are to solve their problems themselves. 1
HappyJackWagon Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 Related, but on a bit of a tangent, a bishop in my stake once told me that on becoming bishop his father (a former bishop) told him that the more you let people talk the more likely they are to solve their problems themselves.This is true, but it's surprising how many people expect the leader to supply them with an answer from God. It's a very uncomfortable situation to have others desire for you to tell them what to do. That mentality is real. It's alive and well. I've actually had members get upset with me when I would not tell them what to do regarding marriage/divorce, major financial decisions like investments, whether or not to cut off a child financially etc. Some people find comfort in having others tell them what to do. This is a dangerous mentality and it's even more dangerous when leaders feel like they are in a position to give these answers on behalf of God.
Calm Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 Related, but on a bit of a tangent, a bishop in my stake once told me that on becoming bishop his father (a former bishop) told him that the more you let people talk the more likely they are to solve their problems themselves.. Good advice. Some people just need to verbalize their thoughts and too many of us think that means they are asking us to solve their problems.Bishops have the added benefit of confidentialty and some see them as available in ways that others are not (it is part of their calling to be available while it would be an imposition on others).
jkwilliams Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 This is true, but it's surprising how many people expect the leader to supply them with an answer from God. It's a very uncomfortable situation to have others desire for you to tell them what to do. That mentality is real. It's alive and well. I've actually had members get upset with me when I would not tell them what to do regarding marriage/divorce, major financial decisions like investments, whether or not to cut off a child financially etc. Some people find comfort in having others tell them what to do. This is a dangerous mentality and it's even more dangerous when leaders feel like they are in a position to give these answers on behalf of God. Back when I was elders quorum president, the bishop came to me and said he was tired of having couples come to him with the same issues: finances, parenting, and sex. He asked me to teach lessons in elders quorum about these three subjects so he wouldn't have so many people coming with the same problems. I ended up teaching a lesson about resolving disagreements in marriage, specifically how men and women might approach things differently. Then I taught 3 more lessons about resolving disagreements involving finances, parenting, and sex. I had a handout for each that had a list of books and resources. It was a great success, if I say so myself. The only time my wife and I ever went to the bishop with our problems was when we were trying to navigate my crisis of faith. My bishop had no idea what to say, so he just said to keep doing what I was doing (prayer, scripture study, temple attendance, etc.).
Calm Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 This is true, but it's surprising how many people expect the leader to supply them with an answer from God. It's a very uncomfortable situation to have others desire for you to tell them what to do. That mentality is real. It's alive and well. I've actually had members get upset with me when I would not tell them what to do regarding marriage/divorce, major financial decisions like investments, whether or not to cut off a child financially etc. Some people find comfort in having others tell them what to do. This is a dangerous mentality and it's even more dangerous when leaders feel like they are in a position to give these answers on behalf of God.Which is another good reason to have a handbook that places bounds on what a leader should give advice on...not that it will stop some, but those might be much worse if they were given free rein.
HappyJackWagon Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 Which is another good reason to have a handbook that places bounds on what a leader should give advice on...not that it will stop some, but those might be much worse if they were given free rein.Except the handbook tells the bishop the advice he must give (like the surgical sterility issue mentioned earlier)Instead, the handbook could simply say, "the bishop should encourage the member to pray to receive their own answer." End of story. The bishop will not counsel you on how to invest, what positions are appropriate between husband and wife, when to get sterilized. Interestingly, the church takes the exact approach I'm suggesting when it comes to marriage. A bishop is told not to counsel a couple to divorce or not divorce. Bishops have no business giving marriage counseling unless they are a trained marriage counselor. That same approach could be applied across the board. The member needs to own their decision and not pawn it off on someone else. The handbook could help teach that lesson. 1
The Nehor Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 Which is another good reason to have a handbook that places bounds on what a leader should give advice on...not that it will stop some, but those might be much worse if they were given free rein.The handbook does do that. 1
The Nehor Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 Except the handbook tells the bishop the advice he must give (like the surgical sterility issue mentioned earlier)Instead, the handbook could simply say, "the bishop should encourage the member to pray to receive their own answer." End of story. The bishop will not counsel you on how to invest, what positions are appropriate between husband and wife, when to get sterilized. Interestingly, the church takes the exact approach I'm suggesting when it comes to marriage. A bishop is told not to counsel a couple to divorce or not divorce. Bishops have no business giving marriage counseling unless they are a trained marriage counselor. That same approach could be applied across the board. The member needs to own their decision and not pawn it off on someone else. The handbook could help teach that lesson.Given the choice between the counsel of a marriage counselor and a bishop I will take the bishop. 1
jkwilliams Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 Given the choice between the counsel of a marriage counselor and a bishop I will take the bishop. I wouldn't A bishop is not called to be a marriage counselor and has no training (unless he is actually a marriage counselor by profession). I know a lot of people who have benefited from seeing a capable marriage counselor. 1
The Nehor Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 I wouldn't A bishop is not called to be a marriage counselor and has no training (unless he is actually a marriage counselor by profession). I know a lot of people who have benefited from seeing a capable marriage counselor.So do I. I also know many people who have benefitted from seeing a bishop. Ideally in a situation where it is required I would recommend seeing both but still, if I had to choose.
bluebell Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 I wouldn't A bishop is not called to be a marriage counselor and has no training (unless he is actually a marriage counselor by profession). I know a lot of people who have benefited from seeing a capable marriage counselor. Me too. Most bishops will recommend counselors thru LDS family services rather than do the counseling themselves. They know their limits. 3
jkwilliams Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 So do I. I also know many people who have benefitted from seeing a bishop. Ideally in a situation where it is required I would recommend seeing both but still, if I had to choose. Oh, I'm not saying people shouldn't see the bishop, but I certainly wouldn't rely on a bishop to provide marriage counseling. Even if I thought he was sure to provide good counsel, I wouldn't wish that burden on any bishop. 1
The Nehor Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 Oh, I'm not saying people shouldn't see the bishop, but I certainly wouldn't rely on a bishop to provide marriage counseling. Even if I thought he was sure to provide good counsel, I wouldn't wish that burden on any bishop.It depends upon the nature of the problem. I have known too many instances of bishops guiding a couple back to harmony with a few inspired words to discount it. I definitely agree that if it is becoming weekly sessions with the bishop that either additional resources need to be brought to bear or they need to leave the poor bishop alone. 1
will227457 Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 Given the choice between the counsel of a marriage counselor and a bishop I will take the bishop.Would you take your Mercedes to a plumber to get the oil changed or to a dealership who specializes. Bishops have no training in counseling unless that is their profession and as such do not belong in the marital counseling business. 1
The Nehor Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 Would you take your Mercedes to a plumber to get the oil changed or to a dealership who specializes. Bishops have no training in counseling unless that is their profession and as such do not belong in the marital counseling business.That depends. To make your analogy work does the plumber in this case have the spiritual right to revelation to assist me in said oil change?
will227457 Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 That depends. To make your analogy work does the plumber in this case have the spiritual right to revelation to assist me in said oil change?Is this a serious question?
jkwilliams Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 Yes and no. Does a bishop have the right to revelation for a couple in the ward? I don't think I ever would have thought so. Marriage counseling seems far afield of a bishop's calling and responsibility.
The Nehor Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 Does a bishop have the right to revelation for a couple in the ward? I don't think I ever would have thought so. Marriage counseling seems far afield of a bishop's calling and responsibility.Perhaps not to answer their every question but receiving knowledge on how to counsel them.....definitely. Even if God gives a rare "no comment" answer that is still an answer. 1
phaedrus ut Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 I was chastised and called to repentance by a Bishop after my vasectomy. I was completely dumbfounded and had never heard of the church's stance on the matter. He showed me the handbook and again suggested that I should repent. He was a very nice guy but also very much a by the book personality. I told him with a gentle tone and a smile "they're my balls and my business. If you have a problem with that then bring me an my balls in for a Bishop's court". That was the most defiant I had ever been to a church leader but it was painless and barely unpleasant because I was confident that I was in the right. Phaedrus 2
Steve-o Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 I was chastised and called to repentance by a Bishop after my vasectomy. I was completely dumbfounded and had never heard of the church's stance on the matter. He showed me the handbook and again suggested that I should repent. He was a very nice guy but also very much a by the book personality. I told him with a gentle tone and a smile "they're my balls and my business. If you have a problem with that then bring me an my balls in for a Bishop's court". That was the most defiant I had ever been to a church leader but it was painless and barely unpleasant because I was confident that I was in the right. PhaedrusHillarious. Did he suggest how could repent of a vasectomy?
will227457 Posted November 3, 2015 Posted November 3, 2015 Yes and no.A MFT needs a bachelors degree, masters degree, and 1500-3000 hours of supervised training to become licensed.....most bishops marital experience is from their own marriage and who knows how good that marriage is.... Most bishops are wonderful well meaning people, but every time my bishop counsels someone I cringe on the inside.
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