Latter-Day Saints Rejecting God's Prophet On The Earth

[Tony Frank]

Is it not somewhat the same in Islam? I'm sure you know that even if an individual born into Islam converts to a non-Islamic faith, and has zero remaining belief in the religion, as far as Islamic law is concerned that man is still a member of Islam and he has no say in the matter.

Although I'm LDS, I'm wondering if it's possible to make a similar argument for someone born into the LDS Church? Regardless of the answer, one thing is for certain, there are a significant numbers of those who have left the LDS faith who, of their own volition, just can't seem to leave it alone. Some of these folks will come to discussion boards like this one and spend significant portions of their lives discussing Mormonism with members of the LDS Church. But in this instance, the continued association with the religion they left behind is purely voluntary.

 

The penalty for leaving Islam is death. Muslim fundamentalists will kill anyone who renounces Islam.

[MiserereNobis]

The Catholic process of confession is you go to a priest on a regular basis and confess all your sins. "Bless me father for I have sinned. My last confession was ___ ago."

 

Nowhere does Catholicism teach that people need to confess their sins to God, which is what repentance is. They gave repentance a new name, "penance," and said that Catholics must confess their sins to a priest.

 

You would make such a fantastic anti-Mormon.  Despite the fact that you have no less than 3 Catholics tell you what Catholics believe, you keep claiming that you know better.

 

Do you think we are lying about what we believe or just ignorant of it?

 

When we confess to a priest, we are also confessing to God.  God forgives, not the priest.  Look at the quote you put:  "Bless me, father."  Notice we don't say "Forgive me, father" because it is God who forgives, using the priesthood authority of the priest.

 

From the Catechism:

 

1441 Only God forgives sins. Since he is the Son of God, Jesus says of himself, "The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" and exercises this divine power: "Your sins are forgiven." Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name^.

 

1442 Christ has willed that in her prayer and life and action his whole Church should be the sign and instrument of the forgiveness and reconciliation that he acquired for us at the price of his blood. But he entrusted the exercise of the power of absolution to the apostolic ministry which he charged with the "ministry of reconciliation. ^The apostle is sent out "on behalf of Christ" with "God making his appeal" through him and pleading: "Be reconciled to God."

 

You argument is like saying that because a Mormon goes to a priesthood holder for a blessing when sick that the Mormon believes it is the priesthood holder who actually heals him, not God.  Ridiculous.

Edited November 2, 2015 by MiserereNobis

[The Nehor]

The penalty for leaving Islam is death. Muslim fundamentalists will kill anyone who renounces Islam.

 

I know several former Muslims. The death of those leaving the faith is not nearly as pervasive as Islamophobes try to make it seem. Yes, there are places where it is very dangerous to leave the faith but it is not true everywhere.

[Tony Frank]

You would make such a fantastic anti-Mormon.  Despite the fact that you have no less than 3 Catholics tell you what Catholics believe, you keep claiming that you know better.

 

Do you think we are lying about what we believe or just ignorant of it?

 

When we confess to a priest, we are also confessing to God.  God forgives, not the priest.  Look at the quote you put:  "Bless me, father."  Notice we don't say "Forgive me, father" because it is God who forgives, using the priesthood authority of the priest.

 

From the Catechism:

 

1441 Only God forgives sins. Since he is the Son of God, Jesus says of himself, "The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins" and exercises this divine power: "Your sins are forgiven." Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name^.

 

1442 Christ has willed that in her prayer and life and action his whole Church should be the sign and instrument of the forgiveness and reconciliation that he acquired for us at the price of his blood. But he entrusted the exercise of the power of absolution to the apostolic ministry which he charged with the "ministry of reconciliation. ^The apostle is sent out "on behalf of Christ" with "God making his appeal" through him and pleading: "Be reconciled to God."

 

 

You argument is like saying that because a Mormon goes to a priesthood holder for a blessing when sick that the Mormon believes it is the priesthood holder who actually heals him, not God.  Ridiculous.

 

You are confirming that Catholicism does not teach that people need to confess their sins to God. You are simply saying that confessing to a priest is confessing to God.

 

I was an altar boy and believed very strongly in the Catholic faith, and I went to confession on a regular basis. I always said the prayers that the priest instructed me to say, but I never had the slightest inkling that my sins were forgiven until eight years after I left the Catholic Church, which is when I confessed to God that I am a sinner. Catholicism does not teach man to confess to God that he is a sinner.

[3DOP]

You are confirming that Catholicism does not teach that people need to confess their sins to God. You are simply saying that confessing to a priest is confessing to God.

 

I was an altar boy and believed very strongly in the Catholic faith, and I went to confession on a regular basis. I always said the prayers that the priest instructed me to say, but I never had the slightest inkling that my sins were forgiven until eight years after I left the Catholic Church, which is when I confessed to God that I am a sinner. Catholicism does not teach man to confess to God that he is a sinner.

You are an authority on the Catholic Church now because you were an altar boy who obviously didn't even know his catechism fifty years ago? That boat won't float here.

3DOP

[MiserereNobis]

You are confirming that Catholicism does not teach that people need to confess their sins to God. You are simply saying that confessing to a priest is confessing to God.

 

I was an altar boy and believed very strongly in the Catholic faith, and I went to confession on a regular basis. I always said the prayers that the priest instructed me to say, but I never had the slightest inkling that my sins were forgiven until eight years after I left the Catholic Church, which is when I confessed to God that I am a sinner. Catholicism does not teach man to confess to God that he is a sinner.

 

I'm not sure why I keep trying with you, but I am

 

We've already established that you had a terrible Catholic education if you didn't know the doctrine of the Holy Trinity in 8th grade, so I think we can also dismiss your appeals to ethos when you say you were an altar boy.  Based on all that you've wrote about Catholicism, you really don't understand it, and being an altar boy doesn't change that.

 

I have no idea how you could go to confession on a regular basis and not have an inkling that your sins were forgiven.  That baffles me, since Christ's sacrifice for the forgiveness of our sins is the absolute cornerstone and foundation of Catholicism.  That's what Holy Mass is all about -- Christ's sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins.  The priest holds up the consecrated host and says, "Behold the Lamb of God.  Behold He who takes away the sins of the world."

 

I go to confession once a week.  While I am waiting in line, I pray to God.  I think about my sins and prepare myself for a good confession.  When I exit the confessional, I go and kneel and pray, reviewing my sins and the counsel my confessor gave me and the penance I am to perform.

 

I pray the Act of Contrition (which the priest often asks me to pray in the confessional, as well):

 

"O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee, and I detest all my sins because they offend Thee, my God, Who art all good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace, to confess my sins, to do good, avoid evil, and to amend my life. Amen."

 

That's a pretty good confession to God, don't you think?  Just include the specific details of your own sins.

 

So, I confess to God and I confess to my priest and I receive forgiveness and absolution.

 

I don't really like to be blunt, but I'm going to have to with you.  What you have said about Catholics and repentance is nonsense.

Edited November 3, 2015 by MiserereNobis

[Steve-o]

_{Is it possible that Tony's educational experience really didn't teach him well or are you suggesting he is trolling without really having had a catholic experience? I can't tell what our catholic friends are suggesting about Tony.}

[MiserereNobis]

_{Is it possible that Tony's educational experience really didn't teach him well or are you suggesting he is trolling without really having had a catholic experience? I can't tell what our catholic friends are suggesting about Tony.}

 

I am not doubting his story.  I think we're (if I may speak for Rory) just trying to point out that, when it comes to Catholicism, he's got it wrong.  The problem is, even though we've pointed out multiple errors in his understanding, he just keeps saying the same things.  At that point, it almost feels like it is intentional.

 

Obviously no one has to agree with the doctrine, but we're just helping to make sure that everyone knows what the doctrine is.  It appears that Tony, for whatever reason, has a hard time accepting what we tell him (even when we use authoritative sources like the Catechism and Doctors of the Church).

Edited November 3, 2015 by MiserereNobis

[Calm]

Yes, it is rather strange. There is plenty left for a LDS to disagree with even when they have a correct understanding of the doctrine and history (as far as an outsider can understand). . Just as there are significant LDS doctrines for Catholics to challenge even after the typical and less typical lists of antimormon claims are rejected by them.

Don't have to go beyond the fundamental relationship of God and Man...Creator and Creature...a gap never closed completely even with God bringing Man to Him in many ways, Father and Child where Man is literally a part of the Family of God and not just through inheritance or adoption, the gap will be completely closed though God will always be our God.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c1.htm

"39 In defending the ability of human reason to know God, the Church is expressing her confidence in the possibility of speaking about him to all men and with all men, and therefore of dialogue with other religions, with philosophy and science, as well as with unbelievers and atheists.

40 Since our knowledge of God is limited, our language about him is equally so. We can name God only by taking creatures as our starting point, and in accordance with our limited human ways of knowing and thinking.

41 All creatures bear a certain resemblance to God, most especially man, created in the image and likeness of God. The manifold perfections of creatures - their truth, their goodness, their beauty all reflect the infinite perfection of God. Consequently we can name God by taking his creatures" perfections as our starting point, "for from the greatness and beauty of created things comes a corresponding perception of their Creator".15

42 God transcends all creatures. We must therefore continually purify our language of everything in it that is limited, image-bound or imperfect, if we are not to confuse our image of God--"the inexpressible, the incomprehensible, the invisible, the ungraspable"--with our human representations.16 Our human words always fall short of the mystery of God.

43 Admittedly, in speaking about God like this, our language is using human modes of expression; nevertheless it really does attain to God himself, though unable to express him in his infinite simplicity. Likewise, we must recall that "between Creator and creature no similitude can be expressed without implying an even greater dissimilitude";17 and that "concerning God, we cannot grasp what he is, but only what he is not, and how other beings stand in relation to him."18"

https://www.lds.org/topics/plan-of-salvation/god-is-our-father?lang=eng

"Even though God is the Creator of all things, we enjoy a relationship with Him that is unique from all of His other creations. We are all His spirit children, literally the sons and daughters of God, and He has created us in His image."

If there is a better way of expressing the Catholic thought, please let me know.

Edited November 3, 2015 by Calm

[Ares]

When referencing Catholicism please let the Catholics state what they believe.  We don't encourage people telling Mormon's what they really believe here, so offer the Catholics the same courtesy.

 

Thank you. 

[Tony Frank]

I am not doubting his story.  I think we're (if I may speak for Rory) just trying to point out that, when it comes to Catholicism, he's got it wrong.  The problem is, even though we've pointed out multiple errors in his understanding, he just keeps saying the same things.  At that point, it almost feels like it is intentional.

 

Obviously no one has to agree with the doctrine, but we're just helping to make sure that everyone knows what the doctrine is.  It appears that Tony, for whatever reason, has a hard time accepting what we tell him (even when we use authoritative sources like the Catechism and Doctors of the Church).

 

OK, let me ask you this. When you commit a sin, having faith in Jesus Christ  and knowing that he suffered and died for your sins, do you believe you can confess to our Father in heaven that you have sinned and be forgiven, or do you believe that you must go and confess your sin to a priest?

[jkwilliams]

OK, let me ask you this. When you commit a sin, having faith in Jesus Christ and knowing that he suffered and died for your sins, do you believe you can confess to our Father in heaven that you have sinned and be forgiven, or do you believe that you must go and confess your sin to a priest?

The LDS church requires that some types of sin be confessed to a bishop, too. How is that different?

[MiserereNobis]

OK, let me ask you this. When you commit a sin, having faith in Jesus Christ  and knowing that he suffered and died for your sins, do you believe you can confess to our Father in heaven that you have sinned and be forgiven, or do you believe that you must go and confess your sin to a priest?

 

Ok.

 

I have to confess to God (the Act of Contrition) and, if it is a mortal sin, I have to confess to a priest.

 

Now, let me ask you this.  If a Mormon commits adultery, having faith in Jesus Christ and knowing that He suffered and died for sins, do you believe that the Mormon can confess to Our Father in heaven that he has sinned and be forgiven, or do you believe that the Mormon must go and confess the sin to the bishop and/or stake president?

[Robert F. Smith]

You would make such a fantastic anti-Mormon.  Despite the fact that you have no less than 3 Catholics tell you what Catholics believe, you keep claiming that you know better.

 

Do you think we are lying about what we believe or just ignorant of it?

 

When we confess to a priest, we are also confessing to God.  God forgives, not the priest.  Look at the quote you put:  "Bless me, father."  Notice we don't say "Forgive me, father" because it is God who forgives, using the priesthood authority of the priest.

 

From the Catechism:

 

 

You argument is like saying that because a Mormon goes to a priesthood holder for a blessing when sick that the Mormon believes it is the priesthood holder who actually heals him, not God.  Ridiculous.

He probably thinks you are pagan idol worshipers too.  Wait, what's that statue atop his temple?

[Bobbieaware]

I know several former Muslims. The death of those leaving the faith is not nearly as pervasive as Islamophobes try to make it seem. Yes, there are places where it is very dangerous to leave the faith but it is not true everywhere.

It's likely many more "apostates" from Islam would be put to death in western nations if those who feel a duty to carry out the sentence thought they could get away with it.

 

This is getting close to Muslim bashing. Stop it.

[Robert F. Smith]

You are an authority on the Catholic Church now because you were an altar boy who obviously didn't even know his catechism fifty years ago? That boat won't float here.

3DOP

Maybe Frank could try the following, Rory:

 

Catholicism All-In-One For Dummies (Wiley, 2015),

 

Catholicism For Dummies, 2nd ed. (Wiley, 2011), including the 12 Articles of Faith

–both authors have doctorates, and are both Catholic priests, so it should be reliable.

 

There is also Mormonism for Dummies (Wiley, 2005), which many of my fellow Mormons ought to read . . .

[mfbukowski]

I'm not sure why I keep trying with you, but I am

We've already established that you had a terrible Catholic education if you didn't know the doctrine of the Holy Trinity in 8th grade, so I think we can also dismiss your appeals to ethos when you say you were an altar boy. Based on all that you've wrote about Catholicism, you really don't understand it, and being an altar boy doesn't change that.

I have no idea how you could go to confession on a regular basis and not have an inkling that your sins were forgiven. That baffles me, since Christ's sacrifice for the forgiveness of our sins is the absolute cornerstone and foundation of Catholicism. That's what Holy Mass is all about -- Christ's sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins. The priest holds up the consecrated host and says, "Behold the Lamb of God. Behold He who takes away the sins of the world."

I go to confession once a week. While I am waiting in line, I pray to God. I think about my sins and prepare myself for a good confession. When I exit the confessional, I go and kneel and pray, reviewing my sins and the counsel my confessor gave me and the penance I am to perform.

I pray the Act of Contrition (which the priest often asks me to pray in the confessional, as well):

"O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee, and I detest all my sins because they offend Thee, my God, Who art all good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace, to confess my sins, to do good, avoid evil, and to amend my life. Amen."

That's a pretty good confession to God, don't you think? Just include the specific details of your own sins.

So, I confess to God and I confess to my priest and I receive forgiveness and absolution.

I don't really like to be blunt, but I'm going to have to with you. What you have said about Catholics and repentance is nonsense.

I sympathize with you on dealing with Tony. He sounds more EV than LDS

Interesting changes to the act of contrition, I like it better. A bit softer I think and more meaningful.

[MiserereNobis]

I sympathize with you on dealing with Tony. He sounds more EV than LDS

Interesting changes to the act of contrition, I like it better. A bit softer I think and more meaningful.

 

Well, here is the more traditional rendering.  Is this what you remember?

 

O my God,  I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee, and I detest all my sins because I dread the loss of Heaven and the pains of Hell; but most of all because they offend Thee, my God, Who art all-good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace, to confess my sins, to do penance, and to amend my life. Amen.

[Tsuzuki]

Since when did a thread on independent free-thinking Mormons turn into one on Catholic bashing?

 

This ^ 

 

Everybody back on topic.

[The Nehor]

It's likely many more "apostates" from Islam would be put to death in western nations if those who feel a duty to carry out the sentence thought they could get away with it.

 

It's likely many more "apostates" from Mormonism would be put to death in western nations if those who feel a duty to carry out the sentence thought they could get away with it.

[Tsuzuki]

This ^ 

 

Everybody back on topic.

Oops. I meant to post that with my administrator account.

[mfbukowski]

Well, here is the more traditional rendering.  Is this what you remember?

 

O my God,  I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee, and I detest all my sins because I dread the loss of Heaven and the pains of Hell; but most of all because they offend Thee, my God, Who art all-good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace, to confess my sins, to do penance, and to amend my life. Amen.

Oh My God I am heartily sorry for having offended thee, and I detest all my sins because of thy just punishments, but most of all because they have offended thee My God who art all good and deserving of all my love.  I firmly resolve with the help of thy grace, to sin no more, and to avoid the near occasions of sin. Amen.

 

That would be circa 1955, first communion time.

[Robert F. Smith]

Yes, but there is a difference between rules and laws.

Yes, if we insist on semantic games, but not in fact.

[saemo]

Yes, if we insist on semantic games, but not in fact.

I'm not pointing out the difference just to be a party pooper.

I think it is a good way to describe a difference. Rules can be anything from, don't hit your sister, to don't kill you neighbor. Laws, are legally enforced rules, that are codified and enforced by a legal authority. Which, exists in Catholicism, but not in Mormonism. I'm not saying one or the other is any better or worse, but there is a difference that is greater than semantics. Hitting your sister is not enforced by codified laws and legal authority. Killing your neighbor is. Breaking a law has a greater penalty than breaking a rule.

To the point of breaking the seal of confession, a priest is under the code of Canon Law, which is a legal authority, and he faces legal consequences ander Catholic law. Rule enforcement is more flexible than the enforcement of a law.

Edited November 4, 2015 by saemo

[Robert F. Smith]

I'm not pointing out the difference just to be a party pooper.

I think it is a good way to describe a difference. Rules can be anything from, don't hit your sister, to don't kill you neighbor. Laws, are legally enforced rules, that are codified and enforced by a legal authority. Which, exists in Catholicism, but not in Mormonism. I'm not saying one or the other is any better or worse, but there is a difference that is greater than semantics. Hitting your sister is not enforced by codified laws and legal authority. Killing your neighbor is. Breaking a law has a greater penalty than breaking a rule.

To the point of breaking the seal of confession, a priest is under the code of Canon Law, which is a legal authority, and he faces legal consequences ander Catholic law. Rule enforcement is more flexible than the enforcement of a law.

In the world of semantic games, yes, but not in fact.  Were you familiar with law as broadly defined and applied, you would understand these matters differently.  For example, laws need not be codified, and need not even be statutory.  They may be based on "custom and usage," which was a major part of the common law, now little used in America.  There is also stare decisis or case law.  Indeed, within Judaism, responsa constitutes legal rulings by the rabbis.

 

Moreover, you are quite wrong that the LDS Church does not have published laws which can be acted upon by proper legal authority.  As with most churches, synagogues, and mosques, formal trials may be held and verdicts reached by judges (the LDS bishop is a common judge, and various higher councils may sit in judgment, their judgments being appealable).  Within the LDS faith we do not have the formal designation of "canon lawyer," but we have in fact had such figures -- the late Elder Bruce R. McConkie, for example.  In some countries, the State of Israel for example, religious courts have full secular jurisdiction over family law and internal religious governance, and that jurisdiction is backed by the full police power of the State.  You are not apparently thinking broadly enough, and do not realize that the LDS Church functions inside the State of Israel.