Latter-Day Saints Rejecting God's Prophet On The Earth

[Tsuzuki]

I have news for you. The eternal plan of salvation was not to have a world full of naked people who do not know they are naked and do not know good from evil, a world where the only rule is do not eat from the apple tree in the Garden of Eden.

 

God's plan included Satan tempting man so that man would transgress. As it states in Moses 4:6, "And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world."

I disagree that Satan didn't know the mind of God. Satan was fulfilling His mission as the Holy Ghost.

[Tony Frank]

I disagree that Satan didn't know the mind of God. Satan was fulfilling His mission as the Holy Ghost.

 

Congratulations! You are the second poster to make it to my ignore list.

[Tony Frank]

Preach it, brother, preach it!

 

 

I did, indeed, preach it. I hope you read every word. Book of Mormon prophets had awesome testimonies of Jesus Christ.

[MiserereNobis]

I did, indeed, preach it. I hope you read every word. Book of Mormon prophets had awesome testimonies of Jesus Christ.

 

So does every Catholic Saint and I love to read their experiences and teachings.  St. Francis is particularly close to my heart.  Christ spoke to him, gave him a mission, and supported and loved him through so many trials.  Francis loved Christ so much and prayed so fervently to be like Christ that he even received the Stigmata.

 

Now, there is a follower of Christ.  Perfectly loyal to the Church (he received the Pope's blessing for his way of life), perfectly in love with poverty (he stripped naked in front of the Bishop and townspeople of Assisi when he denounced all possessions), and a perfect example of the ability of one to live Christ's teachings.  Thank God for him.

 

(yes, I have a devotion to the Fool for Christ -- his life is truly incredible)

 

Have you read of his life and teachings, Tony Frank?

[MiserereNobis]

And then there is St. Benedict!  His amazing Rule has guided the spiritual life of millions and millions (and millions) of monks and nuns and lay people since the 6th century and on into today.  Through the grace of God, he knew how to create a pattern for life that would lead one inexorably closer and closer to Christ, through work and prayer and simplicity.  Everything is Christ-directed and Christ-centered.  1500 years later, hundreds of orders later, his words and life still lead to Christ.  A truly amazing Saint.

 

I recommend his life and teachings, too

Edited October 29, 2015 by MiserereNobis

[Tony Frank]

So does every Catholic Saint and I love to read their experiences and teachings.  St. Francis is particularly close to my heart.  Christ spoke to him, gave him a mission, and supported and loved him through so many trials.  Francis loved Christ so much and prayed so fervently to be like Christ that he even received the Stigmata.

 

Now, there is a follower of Christ.  Perfectly loyal to the Church (he received the Pope's blessing for his way of life), perfectly in love with poverty (he stripped naked in front of the Bishop and townspeople of Assisi when he denounced all possessions), and a perfect example of the ability of one to live Christ's teachings.  Thank God for him.

 

(yes, I have a devotion to the Fool for Christ -- his life is truly incredible)

 

Have you read of his life and teachings, Tony Frank?

 

Why not post a short excerpt from the life and teachings of St. Francis, something that testifies of Jesus Christ, something like the following from the prophet-historian Mormon:

 

“After his resurrection and ascension into Heaven, the risen Savior appeared to the Nephites and the first thing he said was: ‘Behold, I am Jesus Christ, whom the prophets testified shall come into the world.

 

‘And behold, I am the light and the life of the world; and I have drunk out of that bitter cup which the Father hath given me and have glorified the Father in taking upon me the sins of the world, in the which I have suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning.’

 

“And after the Nephites fell to the earth in astonishment, the Savior said: ‘Arise and come forth unto me that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.’”

Edited October 29, 2015 by Tony Frank

[MiserereNobis]

Why not post a short excerpt from the life and teachings of St. Francis, something that testifies of Jesus Christ, something like the following from the prophet-historian Mormon:

 

“After his resurrection and ascension into Heaven, the risen Savior appeared to the Nephites and the first thing he said was: ‘Behold, I am Jesus Christ, whom the prophets testified shall come into the world.

 

‘And behold, I am the light and the life of the world; and I have drunk out of that bitter cup which the Father hath given me and have glorified the Father in taking upon me the sins of the world, in the which I have suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning.’

 

“And after the Nephites fell to the earth in astonishment, the Savior said: ‘Arise and come forth unto me that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.’”

 

But that's not what Mormon saw.  That's his report of something that happened for which he was not present, right?

[Tony Frank]

But that's not what Mormon saw.  That's his report of something that happened for which he was not present, right?

 

My mistake. I got my quotation marks in the wrong place, and it was Nephi, not Mormon, who was actually there. It should read:

 

After his resurrection and ascension into Heaven, the risen Savior appeared to the Nephites and the first thing he said was: “Behold, I am Jesus Christ, whom the prophets testified shall come into the world.

 

“And behold, I am the light and the life of the world; and I have drunk out of that bitter cup which the Father hath given me and have glorified the Father in taking upon me the sins of the world, in the which I have suffered the will of the Father in all things from the beginning.”

 

And after the Nephites fell to the earth in astonishment, the Savior said: “Arise and come forth unto me that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.”

 

So, how about posting something from St. Francis or St. Benedict, something like this from Lehi, a Book of Mormon prophet who told his son Jacob:

 

“There is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah, who layeth down his life according to the flesh and taketh it again by the power of the Spirit, that he may bring to pass the resurrection of the dead, being the first that should rise.

 

“Wherefore, he is the firstfruits unto God, inasmuch as he shall make intercession for all the children of men; and they that believe in him shall be saved.”

Edited October 29, 2015 by Tony Frank

[MiserereNobis]

I did, indeed, preach it. I hope you read every word. Book of Mormon prophets had awesome testimonies of Jesus Christ.

 

It appears, however, that you did not preach it, but simply copied and pasted it from facebook:

 

https://www.facebook.com/Testimony.of.Christ/posts/508716875851794

 

ETA:  I guess that's his facebook page, so he preached it there and copied it here

Edited October 29, 2015 by MiserereNobis

[volgadon]

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/wosf/wosf12.htmWe also sing the English version of his Canticle of the Sun.

[MiserereNobis]

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/wosf/wosf12.htmWe also sing the English version of his Canticle of the Sun.

 

Here's a relevant part from the link, from St. Francis' Letter to the Faithful.  I suppose you could call it his testimony.

 

I propose by this present letter and message to offer you the words of our Lord Jesus Christ who is the Word of the Father and the words of the Holy Ghost which are "spirit and life."

This Word of the Father, so worthy, so holy and glorious, whose coming the most High Father announced from heaven by His holy archangel Gabriel to the holy and glorious Virgin Mary in whose womb He received the true flesh of our humanity and frailty, He, being rich above all, willed, nevertheless, with His most Blessed Mother, to choose poverty.

And when His Passion was nigh, He celebrated the Pasch with His disciples and, taking bread, He gave thanks and blessed and broke saying: Take ye and eat: this is My Body. And, taking the chalice, He said: This is My Blood of the New Testament, which shall be shed for you and for many unto remission of sins. After that He prayed to the Father, saying: "Father, if it be possible, let this chalice pass from Me." "And His sweat became as drops of blood, trickling down upon the ground." But withal, He gave up His will to the will of the Father, saying: Father, Thy will be done: not as I will, but as Thou wilt. Such was the will of the Father that His Son, Blessed and Glorious, whom He gave to us, and who was born for us, should by His own Blood, sacrifice, and oblation, offer Himself on the altar of the Cross, not for Himself, by whom "all things were made," but for our sins, leaving us an example that we should follow His steps. And He wishes that we should all be saved by Him and that we should receive Him with a pure heart and a chaste body. But there are few who wish to receive Him and to be saved by Him, although His yoke is sweet and His burden light.

[Bomgeography]

That's a bad idea

[Tony Frank]

Here's a relevant part from the link, from St. Francis' Letter to the Faithful.  I suppose you could call it his testimony.

 

I propose by this present letter and message to offer you the words of our Lord Jesus Christ who is the Word of the Father and the words of the Holy Ghost which are "spirit and life."

This Word of the Father, so worthy, so holy and glorious, whose coming the most High Father announced from heaven by His holy archangel Gabriel to the holy and glorious Virgin Mary in whose womb He received the true flesh of our humanity and frailty, He, being rich above all, willed, nevertheless, with His most Blessed Mother, to choose poverty.

And when His Passion was nigh, He celebrated the Pasch with His disciples and, taking bread, He gave thanks and blessed and broke saying: Take ye and eat: this is My Body. And, taking the chalice, He said: This is My Blood of the New Testament, which shall be shed for you and for many unto remission of sins. After that He prayed to the Father, saying: "Father, if it be possible, let this chalice pass from Me." "And His sweat became as drops of blood, trickling down upon the ground." But withal, He gave up His will to the will of the Father, saying: Father, Thy will be done: not as I will, but as Thou wilt. Such was the will of the Father that His Son, Blessed and Glorious, whom He gave to us, and who was born for us, should by His own Blood, sacrifice, and oblation, offer Himself on the altar of the Cross, not for Himself, by whom "all things were made," but for our sins, leaving us an example that we should follow His steps. And He wishes that we should all be saved by Him and that we should receive Him with a pure heart and a chaste body. But there are few who wish to receive Him and to be saved by Him, although His yoke is sweet and His burden light.

 

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/wosf/wosf12.htm

 

 

Francis's letter never once mentions the word "repent," which is actually mentioned 36 times in the New Testament, and his letter never mentions the word "repentance," which is mentioned 25 times in the New Testament.

 

His letter does tell people to "confess," but it does not say to confess to God that you are a sinner. It tells people to confess all their sins to a priest, as if the priest, not God, can forgive sins.

 

It would have been nice of Francis had written something like this, which was said by a Book of Mormon prophet named Alma:

 

"Preach unto them repentance, and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ; teach them to humble themselves and to be meek and lowly in heart; teach them to withstand every temptation of the devil, with their faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

"Teach them to never be weary of good works, but to be meek and lowly in heart; for such shall find rest to their souls."

 

Or it would have been nice if Francis had written something like this from another Book of Mormon prophet:

 

“Since man had fallen, he could not merit anything of himself; but the sufferings and death of Christ atone for their sins through faith and repentance and so forth; and that he breaketh the bands of death, that the grave shall have no victory, and that the sting of death should be swallowed up in the hopes of glory.”

[Teancum]

Congratulations! You are the second poster to make it to my ignore list.

Ah some on. Tsuzuki is harmless .

Edited October 30, 2015 by Teancum

[MiserereNobis]

Francis's letter never once mentions the word "repent," which is actually mentioned 36 times in the New Testament, and his letter never mentions the word "repentance," which is mentioned 25 times in the New Testament.

 

 

So, you were raised Catholic, right?  Until 8th grade, according to your conversion story.  So, tell me, what is the Catholic term for repentance?  (hint:  it has the same root: pen)...

 

Yes, you got it, penance! (the Douay-Rheims translation of the Bible, which predated and influenced the King James Version, uses penance where the KJV uses repentance)

 

And if there was ever a Saint who called for people to do penance, it would be St. Francis.  I could quote many passages about penance, but let's just stick to his Letter that has been brought up:

 

"Let us, moreover, "bring forth fruits worthy of penance." And let us love our neighbors as ourselves, and, if any one does not wish to love them as himself or cannot, let him at least do them not harm, but let him do good to them."

 

"But all those who do not do penance and who do not receive the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, but who give themselves to vices and sins and walk after evil concupiscence and bad desires and who do not observe what they have promised, corporally they serve the world"

 

"And at once they cause a priest to come and the priest says to him: "Wilt thou do penance for all thy sins? " He answers: "I will." "Wilt thou from thy substance, as far as thou canst, satisfy for what thou hast done and for the things in which thou hast defrauded and deceived men." He answers: "No."—And the priest says: "Why not?"—"Because I have put everything into the hands of my relatives and friends." And he begins to lose the power of speech and thus this miserable man dies a bitter death."

 

(do penance = repent)

 

 

His letter does tell people to "confess," but it does not say to confess to God that you are a sinner. It tells people to confess all their sins to a priest, as if the priest, not God, can forgive sins.

 

So, if I'm LDS and I have pre-marital sex, don't I have to go to the bishop?  If I have extra-marital sex, and I'm a Melchizedek priesthood holder, don't I have to go to the stake president?

 

The LDS church also has required confession to priesthood authorities, without which forgiveness is impossible, so please don't attack the Catholic Church for the same.

 

And yes, the Catholic Church teaches that only God can forgive sins.  The priest is the intermediary, just like the LDS bishop or stake president.

Edited October 30, 2015 by MiserereNobis

[Tsuzuki]

Ah some on. Tsuzuki is harmless .

Yeah, when I'm not murdering and "getting gain", as we Master Mahans tend to do.

[Tony Frank]

So, you were raised Catholic, right?  Until 8th grade, according to your conversion story.  So, tell me, what is the Catholic term for repentance?  (hint:  it has the same root: pen)...

 

Yes, you got it, penance! (the Douay-Rheims translation of the Bible, which predated and influenced the King James Version, uses penance where the KJV uses repentance)

 

And if there was ever a Saint who called for people to do penance, it would be St. Francis.  I could quote many passages about penance, but let's just stick to his Letter that has been brought up:

 

"Let us, moreover, "bring forth fruits worthy of penance." And let us love our neighbors as ourselves, and, if any one does not wish to love them as himself or cannot, let him at least do them not harm, but let him do good to them."

 

"But all those who do not do penance and who do not receive the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, but who give themselves to vices and sins and walk after evil concupiscence and bad desires and who do not observe what they have promised, corporally they serve the world"

 

"And at once they cause a priest to come and the priest says to him: "Wilt thou do penance for all thy sins? " He answers: "I will." "Wilt thou from thy substance, as far as thou canst, satisfy for what thou hast done and for the things in which thou hast defrauded and deceived men." He answers: "No."—And the priest says: "Why not?"—"Because I have put everything into the hands of my relatives and friends." And he begins to lose the power of speech and thus this miserable man dies a bitter death."

 

(do penance = repent)

 

 

 

So, if I'm LDS and I have pre-marital sex, don't I have to go to the bishop?  If I have extra-marital sex, and I'm a Melchizedek priesthood holder, don't I have to go to the stake president?

 

The LDS church also has required confession to priesthood authorities, without which forgiveness is impossible, so please don't attack the Catholic Church for the same.

 

And yes, the Catholic Church teaches that only God can forgive sins.  The priest is the intermediary, just like the LDS bishop or stake president.

 

I am very familiar with the word "penance," which meant confessing your sins to a priest, no matter what the sins were. The priest then grants "absolution." I know you can provide plenty of links to "penance," but how about providing a link to something that says "penance" is confessing your sins to God?

 

LDS bishops and stake presidents do not act as intermediaries. They want to discuss the gravity of pre-marital sex with any offenders, but there is no doctrine that they can grant absolution.

 

Jesus Christ stated in Doctrine and Covenants 64:7, "I, the Lord, forgive sins unto those who confess their sins before me and ask forgiveness."

 

In Doctrine and Covenants 61:2, Christ stated, "I, the Lord, forgive sins, and am merciful unto those who confess their sins with humble hearts."

 

Doctrine and Covenants 58:42 states, "Behold, he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more."

Edited October 30, 2015 by Tony Frank

[3DOP]

Tony Frank

"I am very familiar with the word "penance," which meant confessing your sins to a priest, no matter what the sins were. The priest then grants "absolution." I know you can provide plenty of links to "penance," but how about providing a link to something that says "penance" is confessing your sins to God?"

 

3DOP

"Only God can forgive sins. But He can decide Himself how He wants to do it."

 

---Baltimore Catechism, Lesson 29 (Penance), q. 380

 

Presumably everyone agrees with the Baltimore Catechism on this point? God can decide how He chooses to forgive sins?

 

---and---

 

"No Catholic believes that a priest, simply as an individual man, however pious or learned, has power to forgive sins. This power belongs to God alone."

 

---The Catholic Encyclopedia, (entry for The Sacrament of Penance)

Edited October 30, 2015 by 3DOP

[MiserereNobis]

I am very familiar with the word "penance," which meant confessing your sins to a priest, no matter what the sins were. The priest then grants "absolution." I know you can provide plenty of links to "penance," but how about providing a link to something that says "penance" is confessing your sins to God?

 

 

3DOP and I are telling you what Catholics believe about confession.  You, a non-Catholic, are telling us we are wrong.  You've done this before.  This is an anti-Mormon tactic you are using.  Tell the Mormons what they believe even if they tell you that's not what they believe.  Why are you doing this?  No Catholic believes that the priest forgives you -- it's God that forgives.  God requires confession to the priest as part of forgiveness, just like the LDS require confession to a priesthood authority as part of forgiveness for some sins.  Our two churches draw the line in different places as to what sins needs to be confessed, but we both require confession to a priesthood authority.

 

 

LDS bishops and stake presidents do not act as intermediaries. They want to discuss the gravity of pre-marital sex with any offenders, but there is no doctrine that they can grant absolution.

 

Isn't it stronger than "want"?  My understanding is that it is required.  Can a Mormon get forgiveness of adultery without confession to a bishop and/or stake president, or is it required?

Edited October 30, 2015 by MiserereNobis

[volgadon]

There is little practical difference between Catholic penance and LDS repentance.

[volgadon]

From True to the Faith:

Serious transgressions, such as violations of the law of chastity, may jeopardize your membership in the Church. Therefore, you need to confess these sins to both the Lord and His representatives in the Church. This is done under the care of your bishop or branch president and possibly your stake or mission president, who serve as watchmen and judges in the Church. While only the Lord can forgive sins, these priesthood leaders play a critical role in the process of repentance. They will keep your confession confidential and help you throughout the process of repentance. Be completely honest with them. If you partially confess, mentioning only lesser mistakes, you will not be able to resolve a more serious, undisclosed transgression. The sooner you begin this process, the sooner you will find the peace and joy that come with the miracle of forgiveness.

[Teancum]

Yeah, when I'm not murdering and "getting gain", as we Master Mahans tend to do.

Haha! Nice sense of humor. I think I may be the other that Mr Tony has on ignore.

[Teancum]

I am very familiar with the word "penance," which meant confessing your sins to a priest, no matter what the sins were. The priest then grants "absolution." I know you can provide plenty of links to "penance," but how about providing a link to something that says "penance" is confessing your sins to God?

 

LDS bishops and stake presidents do not act as intermediaries. They want to discuss the gravity of pre-marital sex with any offenders, but there is no doctrine that they can grant absolution.

 

Jesus Christ stated in Doctrine and Covenants 64:7, "I, the Lord, forgive sins unto those who confess their sins before me and ask forgiveness."

 

In Doctrine and Covenants 61:2, Christ stated, "I, the Lord, forgive sins, and am merciful unto those who confess their sins with humble hearts."

 

Doctrine and Covenants 58:42 states, "Behold, he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more."

Utter nonesense about LDS bishops and SPs. Bishops are considered judges in Israel. They can withhold a temple recommend, administer non formal as well as formal discipline. They control the initial process for remission for excommunicated members and they can end formal disfellowshipment status that they may have imposed. They have extreme control of a members standing in the LDS church which for LDS persons impact their status, salvation and exaltation, Tony is uttering simple nonesense on this part of his post.

[3DOP]

Yay, we finally have one I can agree with.

 

But what to do when two prophets teach opposing doctrines?   Just go with the one that's alive because he's alive?

That is what most Catholics do today! Who cares about 260 dead popes?

[MiserereNobis]

That is what most Catholics do today! Who cares about 260 dead popes?

 

Oh, Rory, let your trad flag fly, eh?

 

 

[traditional Catholic tangent]

By the way, what direction does your flag fly?  FSSP?  SSPX?  sedevacantist?

 

I attend an SSPX chapel (60 miles away), but I confess to a traditionally leaning local diocesan priest.  But now, with Pope Francis granting faculties to SSPX priests, for the next year I will confess to the priest of the SSPX chapel I attend.  I'm not an SSPX partisan (if there was an awesome FSSP chapel here, I'd probably be there), but I love with my whole heart the traditional liturgies and devotions.  But I'm also monastically minded, so that's probably part of it.

[/traditional Catholic tangent]

 

ETA:  yes, Rory and I could probably discuss this privately with messages, but hey, you LDS folk should probably know about the various issues in Catholicism these days

Edited October 31, 2015 by MiserereNobis