Anti- Catholicism

[Stargazer]

While we are a Restoration church I believe, with good reason, that the Apostasy was over and done long before the Catholic church came into existence.

That much is certain.

[Alan]

This just lumps the Catholic Church in with every other organization, that thinks differently than the LDS church, under the umbrella of abominable and satanic. It also isn't necessaily consistent with the BOM. When referring to the church of the devil, it is said in the BOM that there are two churches only, of God and of the devil. When referring to the great and abominable, the BOM states that it is abominable above all other "churches." If the great and abominable is abominable above all other churches (plural), then there must be at least three churches. Since the church of the devil is one of two churches it cannot be equated with the great and abominable. I think the BOM is referring to a specific church when using the term great and abominable, instead of using the term as a category for opposing beliefs.

Regardless, this quote still implies that the Catholic Church is a fabrication of satan.

Well said.

[Spammer]

I don't.

The Catholic Church helped bring about the apostacy, as Nephi clearly indicates.

In my view the Catholic Church came into being around 325AD, and finally succeeded in defeating what was left of the original church by 570AD.

Interesting. There were no Catholic Churches prior to 325?So what church did Christians before 325 attend, the Christians who went to church on Sundays in the centuries when Christianity was illegal, many of whom were martyred for their faith? Was it the ancient original church that was lost and restored by Joseoh Smith?

[Teancum]

Yep, I do believe that. If I had not found the church, I would have invented it.

I developed most of the beliefs before I found the church

Ahh ok. This explains a lot.

[Tsuzuki]

I belong to the true Great and Abominable Church. Don't accept any imitation Satans.

[Teancum]

Well, some Catholics may differ with you about the current Pope, you know.And you're wrong about what constitutes the great and abominable. It's any Church that is not the true Church of Jesus Christ. Including the Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, Atheism, and any other -sim.

So all other churches, religions and faith traditions besides the LDS church are the great and abominable church? Is this official LDS doctrine?

[Gilbert]

We shouldn't judge the modern Catholic Church on what it once did, only what it is currently doing. The LDS Church actually works very closely with the Catholic Church in humanitarian endeavors. The Catholic Church does a great deal of good in the world today. To the extent that they are doing good and blessing lives I have to imagine God is pleased with them. If they can produce saintly people like Mother Theresa, while they aren't perfect, they have to be doing something right. And it is that goodness that we should look for and foster in all people. It is my belief that eventually all religions will experience a 10 virgin type scenario where the true followers of Christ (or Christ-like non-Christians) will be seperated from the rest.

[Stargazer]

So all other churches, religions and faith traditions besides the LDS church are the great and abominable church? Is this official LDS doctrine?

I freely admit that I don't know if that's official LDS doctrine! How do you see it? I know that I am not a member of the great and abominable, so what the G&AC is, well, it's academic from my standpoint.

[Teancum]

I freely admit that I don't know if that's official LDS doctrine! How do you see it? I know that I am not a member of the great and abominable, so what the G&AC is, well, it's academic from my standpoint.

I certainly don't think what you said is at least current LDS doctrine though I think many members believe it. Personally I don't think there is such a thing as one true church so for me the point is moot,

Edited October 18, 2015 by Teancum

[MiserereNobis]

To be critical of catholic history is not anti-catholicism.

 

Do you apply this same criteria to those who are critical of Mormonism?  If someone points out all the problematic parts of Mormon history, do you give them the same latitude or do you call them anti-Mormons?

 

In my experience, a person critical of Mormonism is labelled as anti-Mormon.

 

I don't think that heavenly father was pleased by such wars and the corruption inside the christian churches.

 

Yet in the Bible (and the Book of Mormon) there are lots of God-sanctioned religious wars, yes?

[carbon dioxide]

This just lumps the Catholic Church in with every other organization, that thinks differently than the LDS church, under the umbrella of abominable and satanic. It also isn't necessaily consistent with the BOM. When referring to the church of the devil, it is said in the BOM that there are two churches only, of God and of the devil. When referring to the great and abominable, the BOM states that it is abominable above all other "churches." If the great and abominable is abominable above all other churches (plural), then there must be at least three churches. Since the church of the devil is one of two churches it cannot be equated with the great and abominable. I think the BOM is referring to a specific church when using the term great and abominable, instead of using the term as a category for opposing beliefs.

Regardless, this quote still implies that the Catholic Church is a fabrication of satan. Point being, if the pope made a similar comment about the LDS church, members would likely label the pope an anti mormon.

I would not label the Pope anti-Mormon if he was to make a broad, general statement like that.  To me an anti-X is more than just not agreeing with X or thinking X is wrong but taking time out to attack X over and over again in almost a crusade.

 

If the Great and Abominable Church is more evil than all other churches, that would mean its even worse than the church of the devil.  I view the church of the devil in be anything that distracts or takes someone away from God.  It can be anything from the Great and Abominable church to something more mundane like sports or Facebook or a smartphone.  A person is either doing the Lords word and on the Lord's side (church of God) or not (church of the devil).  There is no middle ground. 

[carbon dioxide]

deleted

Edited October 18, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[Teancum]

I would not label the Pope anti-Mormon if he was to make a broad, general statement like that.  To me an anti-X is more than just not agreeing with X or thinking X is wrong but taking time out to attack X over and over again in almost a crusade.

 

If the Great and Abominable Church is more evil than all other churches, that would mean its even worse than the church of the devil.  I view the church of the devil in be anything that distracts or takes someone away from God.  It can be anything from the Great and Abominable church to something more mundane like sports or Facebook or a smartphone.  A person is either doing the Lords word and on the Lord's side (church of God) or not (church of the devil).  There is no middle ground.

I assume you are quite fine that while the Catholic Church will accept many other Christian Sect's baptisms they reject an LDS baptism.

[Stargazer]

I certainly don't think what you said is at least current LDS doctrine though I think many members believe it. Personally I don't think there is such a thing as one true church so for me the point is moot,

 

Yes, you know that I know this, but what do you think the church's actual doctrine on who is the G&AC is?

[MosiahFree]

Yep, I do believe that. If I had not found the church, I would have invented it.

I developed most of the beliefs before I found the church

 

I'd rep this post if I knew how, I hope one day I can hear about your journey because I feel like my education was one long meandering path to the Church. From Plato I learned that God didn't create ex nihilo, but reorganized matter, from Aristotle I learned that gender is eternal, from Christ of the New Testament I learned about the Kingdom of God, from Marcus Aurelius I learned about spiritual discipline through the intellect, from Augustine I learned about the power of Grace, from Thomas Aquinas I learned that faith must be rational, from Descartes I learned to doubt the efficacy of skepticism, from Spinoza I learned to reject the dualism of matter and spirit, from Hume I learned to test all things by their fruits, from Kant I learned that intelligence shapes nature, and from Wittgenstein I learned how to observe instead of speculate.  Yet, it was Joseph Smith who brought together all these various threads of philosophy and theology into a coherent whole.  

[halconero]

How in depth do you think most Mormoms have explored in any depth other religious traditions?

Do you really wonder why all other non LDS don't see things the way you do? I can never recall thing this way when I was a more solid LDS believer.

Actually, Mormons consistently are found to be one of the most knowledgeable groups with regards to other religions. They're in the company of agnostics/atheists and Jews on that one.

[halconero]

I assume you are quite fine that while the Catholic Church will accept many other Christian Sect's baptisms they reject an LDS baptism.

I know I am. We don't accept theirs without any animosity.

The reasoning on both sides is a matter of significant doctrinal differences. For them, we don't baptize with the Trinitarian formula as we don't agree with the concept of the Trinity as defined by the ecumenical councils of the church catholic (purposeful reversal and small "c" catholic for the inclusion of Anglicans, Lutherans, etc).

For us we don't acknowledge the reality or authority of their apostolic succession and the subset of valid ordinances/sacraments.

In this neither side is particularly offended nor hurt. We aren't Trinitarians, nor do we see them as possessing the keys. Statements of doctrinal differences don't constitute anti-Mormonism.

[mfbukowski]

I know I am. We don't accept theirs without any animosity.

The reasoning on both sides is a matter of significant doctrinal differences. For them, we don't baptize with the Trinitarian formula as we don't agree with the concept of the Trinity as defined by the ecumenical councils of the church catholic (purposeful reversal and small "c" catholic for the inclusion of Anglicans, Lutherans, etc).

For us we don't acknowledge the reality or authority of their apostolic succession and the subset of valid ordinances/sacraments.

In this neither side is particularly offended nor hurt. We aren't Trinitarians, nor do we see them as possessing the keys. Statements of doctrinal differences don't constitute anti-Mormonism.

I don't even have a problem saying that we worship a "different God" than Catholics.

 

I embrace fully our fully anthropomorphic God with whom we share our Human Divine nature.

[Tacenda]

I'd rep this post if I knew how, I hope one day I can hear about your journey because I feel like my education was one long meandering path to the Church. From Plato I learned that God didn't create ex nihilo, but reorganized matter, from Aristotle I learned that gender is eternal, from Christ of the New Testament I learned about the Kingdom of God, from Marcus Aurelius I learned about spiritual discipline through the intellect, from Augustine I learned about the power of Grace, from Thomas Aquinas I learned that faith must be rational, from Descartes I learned to doubt the efficacy of skepticism, from Spinoza I learned to reject the dualism of matter and spirit, from Hume I learned to test all things by their fruits, from Kant I learned that intelligence shapes nature, and from Wittgenstein I learned how to observe instead of speculate. Yet, it was Joseph Smith who brought together all these various threads of philosophy and theology into a coherent whole.

Maybe he thought them up too.

[Scott Lloyd]

Hello LDS friends,

 

There are currently two threads on the great and abominable church (church of Satan) where the Catholic church has been put forward as a candidate.  I have stated that this does not personally bother me, as I find such claims laughable and not supported by any real evidence.  I also think they are very clearly based on the historical Protestant bias that underlies America.  Any in-depth of study of Catholic (European) history would show that our ideas about the Catholic Church's atrocities are not based in fact.  I'm not saying that there weren't atrocities -- I'm saying that we fill-in-the-blanks when it comes to things like inquisitions, crusades, etc, and most of our filling-in is simply false.  We also have a similar bias when it comes to Medieval times ("Dark Ages"?  Really??).

 

I appreciate the LDS folk who have come to the Catholic Church's defense and have offered a more tenable view.

 

Anyways, my point here is not to defend the details but to point out a double standard that I see.  My experience with Mormons, both on this board and in person, has shown a completely understandable sensitivity to anti-Mormonism.  When someone attack the LDS church, especially if they are disgruntled ex-Mormon, the criticism is deflected by calling the criticizer an anti-Mormon.

 

I'm fairly certain that if someone called the LDS church the church of satan, the mother of harlots, the whore of Bablyon, the great and abominable church, etc, etc, that person would be labeled an anti-Mormon and their motives and methods impugned.  If that person were in a position of leadership in another church then their bias would be clearly pointed out -- after all, they have a very strong reason to show that the LDS church is false.

 

Is there a double-standard among LDS members who call the Catholic Church the great and abominable church?  Especially if those people are leaders (McConkie, Talmage, etc)?  Is it ok to be anti-another religion but not anti-Mormon?  Is it acceptable to listen to ex-Catholics' claims (Martin Luther, for example) but not ex-Mormon claims?

The idea that the great and abominable church in Book of Mormon scripture has direct reference to the Catholic Church is an old and unwise notion that needs to be relegated to the dustbin of history, along with the now discredited conjecture and speculation in effort to explain the pre-1978 policy with regard to the priesthood.That there are Mormons who are still propounding this theory is an embarrassment.

[Teancum]

Yes, you know that I know this, but what do you think the church's actual doctrine on who is the G&AC is?

Based in comments here seems nobody knows and that it is all over the place. And rightfully so perhaps since as a youth I recall I strong tone that it was the Catholc church and indeed any church that was not the LDS church. The quote someone posted from Mormon doctrine sums up well what I grew up thinking about this topic.

Now....I think the church has back peddled on this and would essentially say it is anything satanci inspired. I don't think they would generally lump other religions into this.

Edited October 18, 2015 by Teancum

[Teancum]

Actually, Mormons consistently are found to be one of the most knowledgeable groups with regards to other religions. They're in the company of agnostics/atheists and Jews on that one.

Actually this has not at least been my personal experience when I here my ward and stake members talking about other religions and their doctrine. I see that here to some extent as well but not as much since people who post on boards such as these tend to interact with people from other faiths and learn from it.

[Teancum]

The idea that the great and abominable church in Book of Mormon scripture has direct reference to the Catholic Church is an old and unwise notion that needs to be relegated to the dustbin of history, along with the now discredited conjecture and speculation in effort to explain the pre-1978 policy with regard to the priesthood.That there are Mormons who are still propounding this theory is an embarrassment.

Well to see it here on this board. I agree with you by the way that it should be relegated to the dust bin. I don't agree that it was not taught fairly consistently at one point by a number of LDS leaders nor was it taught as speculation any more than the efforts to explain the preisthood ban were.

[SmileyMcGee]

I would not label the Pope anti-Mormon if he was to make a broad, general statement like that. To me an anti-X is more than just not agreeing with X or thinking X is wrong but taking time out to attack X over and over again in almost a crusade.

If the Great and Abominable Church is more evil than all other churches, that would mean its even worse than the church of the devil. I view the church of the devil in be anything that distracts or takes someone away from God. It can be anything from the Great and Abominable church to something more mundane like sports or Facebook or a smartphone. A person is either doing the Lords word and on the Lord's side (church of God) or not (church of the devil). There is no middle ground.

The BOM isn't saying that the GABC is worse than the church of the devil, it seems to imply that it's a subset of the church of the devil. My point with my last post was that references to the GABC in the BOM appear to be referring to a specific church, not a broad category of people like the church of the devil.

[Alan]

Interesting. There were no Catholic Churches prior to 325?So what church did Christians before 325 attend, the Christians who went to church on Sundays in the centuries when Christianity was illegal, many of whom were martyred for their faith? Was it the ancient original church that was lost and restored by Joseoh Smith?

They were members of the church of Christ. This was led by apostles, then by the remaining priesthood quorums and individuals until these numbers dwindled to the point there were effectively none left. The church was then under Aaronic administration (bishops, priests and deacons) with no ability to bestow the holy ghost. Revelation was rare and false doctrines, doctrinal disputes and usurption of power or position became the order of the day. Into this chaotic situation stepped Constantine.

Those who complied became the Catholic Church. The remainder continued in what was left of the church of Christ until the end. An example of this is the Celtic Church.

Edited October 18, 2015 by Alan