Dissatisfied Liberal Mormons Find Refuge In The Community Of Christ (?)

[bluebell]

I think people leaving for the COC are the ones who don't think those ordinances have any actual/literal effect. 

 

I'm sure that's true, otherwise, why would they leave?

[The Nehor]

The God I worship takes a slight different approach:

 

 

 

And it came to pass that the God of heaven looked upon the residue of the people, and he wept; and Enoch bore record of it, saying: How is it that the heavens weep, and shed forth their tears as the rain upon the mountains?

I will cry later when I am a God and do not need to be constantly rehydrating to cry like that.

[smac97]

Not believing in the LDS sealing authority is not the same as not believing in eternal families. 99.9% of people who believe that their families are eternal are not sealed.

I am curious as to how widespread the doctrine/belief regarding eternal families is outside the LDS Church. Do you have any data on that subject?

Thanks,

-Smac

[Buckeye]

I am curious as to how widespread the doctrine/belief regarding eternal families is outside the LDS Church. Do you have any data on that subject?

Thanks,

-Smac

 

Just anecdotal. Nearly every person I've ever spoken with about eternal families - including thousands as a missionary - believes that they will be with their family in the eternities. How many people you met who say they do not believe this?

Edited October 1, 2015 by Buckeye

[ALarson]

Just anecdotal. Nearly every person I've ever spoken with about eternal families - including thousands as a missionary - believes that they will be with their family in the eternities. How many people you met who say they do not believe this?

I was about to post this too.  Most spiritual or religious people I know believe they'll be with their loved ones in the afterlife.  They also believe they'll be met by them when they die and they'll be together again.  

Edited October 1, 2015 by ALarson

[Buckeye]

I guess.  

 

If you don't need any authority to have enteral families, then you probably don't need any authority to be ordained either.  These people should just ordain themselves.  Then they can have eternal families AND hold the priesthood.  They don't need a church at all.

 

 

Like i said before, i'm going off of what the article said, which was that nothing counts unless women are eligible for leadership positions.

 

Just as someone can believe that church narratives can provide spiritual truths even though the narratives are not historically accurate (e.g., the story of Christ visiting the Americas can bring us closer to God even if it's made up), someone can believe that church ordinances can function to point people toward God and improve their lives without believing that LDS-authorized ordinances are the only ones to have a lasting effect. In short, LDS ordinances can be viewed as something very good and even Godly, but not necessary. In such a worldview, it's reasonable to press for expanded ordination as something that would benefit the church (and thereby one's family in the church) but when one feels rejected then decide that it's healthier to pursue God in other, non-LDS, spheres.

 

I'm not describing myself BTW. Just helping you to understand one possible mindset of those who you say you don't understand.

Edited October 1, 2015 by Buckeye

[Buckeye]

My elaborate face tattoos have done the trick so far.

 

 

Not sure which way these tattoos cut. This guy may just make a perfect bishop.

 

[smac97]

Just anecdotal. Nearly every person I've ever spoken with about eternal families - including thousands as a missionary - believes that they will be with their family in the eternities. How many people you met who say they do not believe this?

Oh, plenty:

 

http://www.gotquestions.org/marriage-heaven.html

The Bible tells us, “At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven” (Matthew 22:30). This was Jesus’ answer in response to a question concerning a woman who had been married multiple times in her life —whom would she be married to in heaven (Matthew 22:23-28)? Evidently, there will be no such thing as marriage in heaven. This does not mean that a husband and wife will no longer know each other in heaven. This also does not mean that a husband and wife could not still have a close relationship in heaven. What it does seem to indicate, though, is that a husband and wife will no longer be married in heaven.

http://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/sex-in-heaven

Randy, we know from the Bible, there’s no marriage in heaven, and no child bearing either.

http://www.todayschristianwoman.com/articles/2003/july/17.18.html

Q. Since the recent death of my wife, a godly "Proverbs 31" woman, I have been wondering if our marriage will continue in heaven. What does the Bible say about this?

A. May God bless and comfort you, John, on the loss of your dear wife. You can be confident that we will someday be reunited with our believing loved ones.

...

So, I think it's safe to say you will see your wife again. Your question, however, is more specific: will your marriage continue in heaven?

Most Protestant commentators since the Reformation have not been comfortable going that far.

...

Although we can't imagine how the marriage relationship might appear in heaven, it's enough to know that we will see and enjoy our believing friends and family again.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/goodandtruth/2012/09/is-there-marriage-in-heaven/

One final note: it is not only Swedenborgians (and Mormons) who entertain the possibility of marriage (or something spiritually analogous) continuing in the resurrection. Eastern Orthodoxy allows for that possibility; several Protestant Bible scholars have made similar arguments to the one I make above (e.g. Ben Witherington in Women in the Ministry of Jesus); and even some staunch Calvinists hold it out as a possibility.

http://christianity.net.au/questions/will_my_marriage_and_other_relationship_be_the_same_in_heaven

So, according to Jesus, people won’t be married in heaven.

http://www.nancyguthrie.com/i-know-we-wont-be-married-in-heaven-but-will-we-know-and-love-each-other/

We know that Jesus said we won't be married in heaven. But that does not mean we won't have rich, meaningful, intimate relationship with each other in heaven. Certainly we will. It is not that we won't be married. We will all be married to the same person as the bride of Christ and be completely fulfilled.

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/marriageinheaven.html

Contrary to the Mormon view of heaven, it doesn't seem that people in heaven will be either male or female.

...

The idea that we will no longer be married is disturbing to some people. Personally, I like to be married. From an earthly perspective, the dissolution of marriage in heaven doesn't sound like a good thing. However, in heaven, we will be "married" to Jesus, who will be our spiritual "husband."

https://C***.org/will-there-be-marriage-in-heaven

Christians who were married here on earth will not be married in Heaven. The Bible tells us that marriage is dissolved at death.

http://www.sermoncentral.com/sermons/theres-no-marriage-in-heaven-luke-2027-38-david-smith-sermon-on-jesus-teachings-113894.asp

Luke Chapter 20 – Jesus tells us that there is no marriage in heaven.

 

The LDS Church is more or less unique in having a systematic, expressly doctrinal, non-suppositional set of beliefs on this subject.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

[Jeanne]

 just think they want to know why?  A real answer from the Lord.  Gees..they might not even want the Priesthood..but why isn't it available for everyone?

Being sweet..supportive and always busy isn't a calling...it is who they already are..why  are they as mothers not allowed to give ordination to their children when Fathers can..

 

Please...don't any male here think it is a blessing giving birth..although it is so cool..that is not an answer.

[smac97]

just think they want to know why?  A real answer from the Lord.  Gees..they might not even want the Priesthood..but why isn't it available for everyone?

There are five words, repeated over and over by the OW folks, that undermine your questions: "And nothing less will suffice." That is not curiosity about "why." That is not a request for "a real answer from the Lord." And it is definitely not conducive with the notion that "they might not even want the priesthood."

 

Being sweet..supportive and always busy isn't a calling...it is who they already are..why  are they as mothers not allowed to give ordination to their children when Fathers can..

 

Please...don't any male here think it is a blessing giving birth..although it is so cool..that is not an answer.

 

Wow.  Preemptively declarations about what other people can and cannot say.  How . . . not persuasive.

 

My wife has a relationship with our children that is different than my relationship with our children.  A significant dimension of that difference is that my wife has carried them beneath her heart.  Another is that she has been their primary caregiver.  Another is that my wife's gender informs and heavily influences her interactions with our children. The biological/birthing dimension of my wife's relationship with our children is unique and real. So I reject your effort to preemptively declare that it does not exist.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited October 1, 2015 by smac97

[Buckeye]

smac97,

 

thanks for your lengthy lists of cites. I'm aware of the doctrine prevalent in most christian denominations against eternal marriage. But that's different from eternal families. People may not believe that they'll be rearing spirit babies eternally, but most all of them believe they'll be with their wife and kids eternally. That's pretty similar to what our church focuses on. Sure, we may belief in eternal spirit babies, but when we speak of eternal families most of the time we're thinking of bonds with those we share this life with.

 

That said, I also know plenty of people who believe that they will be married eternally regardless of their church's doctrine to the contrary.

[bluebell]

I am curious as to how widespread the doctrine/belief regarding eternal families is outside the LDS Church. Do you have any data on that subject?

Thanks,

-Smac

 

I have active Catholic family members, who were married by priests who used the specific words "till death do you part" that believe they will be with their families for ever.   

 

And i have protestant friends who don't believe that they will be with their families-well, they believe everyone who is saved will be together, but they won't be 'family' anymore.  They will love each other but won't be husband/wife, or mother/daughter, etc.

 

People seem to be all over the map with this belief.

[smac97]

I have active Catholic family members, who were married by priests who used the specific words "till death do you part" that believe they will be with their families for ever.   

 

And i have protestant friends who don't believe that they will be with their families-well, they believe everyone who is saved will be together, but they won't be 'family' anymore.  They will love each other but won't be husband/wife, or mother/daughter, etc.

 

People seem to be all over the map with this belief.

I can see why. There are many Christian groups which reject, to varying degrees, the continuation of the marital/family unit after death. But family seems to be too intrinsically linked to our concept of joy, judgment, reward, etc. in heaven. I think that's a good thing. It's probably a manifestation of the Light of Christ, a recognition - albeit perhaps not a perfect or complete one - of an eternal truth.

Swedenborg has some fascinating thoughts on marriage in heaven. Though incomplete and, to some extent, incorrect, they are fascinating and - in my view - more accurate than dogmatic denials of the continuation of marital/family relationships. But the LDS Church remains unique in its systematic doctrine on this subject. It is perhaps one of the most powerful and compelling components of the Restored Gospel. Many of the Children of Men believe in the what (family relationships continuing beyond death), but the LDS Church is uniquely situated to explain the how (faith in Christ, repentance, partaking in saving ordinances, including sealings of spouses and children, etc.).

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited October 1, 2015 by smac97

[jkwilliams]

I am just the opposite...willing to give up my beliefs in order to avoid becoming a bishop 

 

Joking of course.

Why do you think I left? It was that little part in my patriarchal blessing about one day being a judge in Israel.

[Damien the Leper]

https://www.latter-dayseekers.org

The above is a site for you to check out, Smac. Robin Linkhart of the Presidency of Seventy, and who has been called to apostleship, and Dale Luffman, former apostle of the southwestern U.S. mission centers, established this organization a few years ago. It has been an immensely helpful tool for those who are looking for a new spiritual home.

Here in AZ, Latter-day Seekers continues to grow in several congregations.

The appeal to me has been their Mission Initiatives and Sections 161-163 of the Doctrine & Covenants.

https://www.cofchrist.org/doctrine-and-covenants-section-161

https://www.cofchrist.org/doctrine-and-covenants-section-162

https://www.cofchrist.org/doctrine-and-covenants-section-163

Edited October 1, 2015 by Valentinus

[VideoGameJunkie]

Back to the eternal families thing, I think a loving God will make sure that everyone gets to be with their families and spouse, and not just for the small few who who knelt at an altar during this life. I mean there's only 15 million members out of over 7 billion people and of those 15 million few are actually sealed. The numbers aren't that favorable, so I think God has a plan in place so we'll be with our families and it will all work out for the billions who have ever lived and not just for the few million "special" Mormons.

[bluebell]

Back to the eternal families thing, I think a loving God will make sure that everyone gets to be with their families and spouse, and not just for the small few who who knelt at an altar during this life. I mean there's only 15 million members out of over 7 billion people and of those 15 million few are actually sealed. The numbers aren't that favorable, so I think God has a plan in place so we'll be with our families and it will all work out for the billions who have ever lived and not just for the few million "special" Mormons.

 

He does have a plan in place-it's called doing temple work for the dead.  This work includes sealings.

[smac97]

Back to the eternal families thing, I think a loving God will make sure that everyone gets to be with their families and spouse, and not just for the small few who who knelt at an altar during this life.

I will assume that you are simply not familiar with our beliefs, and not deliberately misstating them (although with 2,000+ posts under your belt, that assumption becomes a bit unwieldy). Latter-day Saints have as a tenet of belief that the children of men who have died without accepting the Gospel can be saved by accepting temple work done on their behalf. And then there's the countless millions who have died (and, in the future, will die) before reaching the age of accountability (D&C 137:10). And the untold numbers of people "who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God", and also "all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom" (D&C 137:7-8 ). As Brigham Young said:

“In the Millennium, when the Kingdom of God is established on the earth in power, glory and perfection, and the reign of wickedness that has so long prevailed is subdued, the Saints of God will have the privilege of building their temples, and of entering into them, becoming, as it were, pillars in the temples of God [see Revelation 3:12], and they will officiate for their dead. Then we will see our friends come up, and perhaps some that we have been acquainted with here. … And we will have revelations to know our forefathers clear back to Father Adam and Mother Eve, and we will enter into the temples of God and officiate for them. Then [children] will be sealed to [parents] until the chain is made perfect back to Adam, so that there will be a perfect chain of Priesthood from Adam to the winding-up scene” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young [1997], 333–34).

 

I think it is manifestly unfair and inaccurate to characterize this expansive view of salvation as being reserved "just for the small few who who knelt at an altar during this life." I don't mind reasoned critiques of my faith. But I take exception to substantive mischaracterizations of my faith.  Please abstain from doing so.

 

I mean there's only 15 million members out of over 7 billion people and of those 15 million few are actually sealed. The numbers aren't that favorable, so I think God has a plan in place so we'll be with our families and it will all work out for the billions who have ever lived and not just for the few million "special" Mormons.

Again, you are substantially mischaracterizing or misunderstanding our beliefs.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited October 1, 2015 by smac97

[Duncan]

I think most men who end up being called as bishops don't aspire to that position, either. I just find it a wee bit odd that some might take specific and deliberate countermeasures calculated to affirmatively avoid the calling.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

 

to quote Amy Farrah-Fowler "we clearly have led different lives"

[VideoGameJunkie]

smac, I'm doing no such thing. I'm a very numbers person and trying to wrap my head around logistics. So I'd appreciate it if you don't insult me.

[bluebell]

smac, I'm doing no such thing. I'm a very numbers person and trying to wrap my head around logistics. So I'd appreciate it if you don't insult me.

 

Don't forget that most of this temple work will be done during the Millennium, when temples will run 24 hours a day some say.  The work will get done, the numbers notwithstanding.  

[smac97]

smac, I'm doing no such thing. I'm a very numbers person and trying to wrap my head around logistics. So I'd appreciate it if you don't insult me.

 

Okay.  I could/should have been more circumspect in my remarks.  I apologize.  Nevertheless, I recommend that you reconsider your understanding of LDS belief on this issue, as I think your understanding is materially incorrect.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

[VideoGameJunkie]

So now you're calling me unintelligent? Why do you keep having to add personal jabs to your posts about my intelligence. Does it stroke your ego knowing you know so much and I know so little? Does it make you feel better?

Edited October 1, 2015 by VideoGameJunkie

[Guest]

It seems weird to me that someone would be willing to give up so much (including a belief in exaltation and eternal families) just so they might some day have the chance of being a bishop.

People who feel they have no power, will sacrifice all. What they do not know is they have power already.

[bluebell]

So now you're calling me unintelligent? Why do you keep having to add personal jabs to your posts about my intelligence. Does it stroke your ego knowing you know so much and I know so little? Does it make you feel better?

I thought Smac's second post was respectful and sincere.

Being uninformed is not the same thing as being unintelligent. And being told you might not be as familiar with a topic as you could be is not an insult.