theplains Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 I had some questions on this passage. 1 Nephi 4:15-19 says, "Yea, and I also thought that they could not keep the commandments of the Lord according to the law of Moses, save they should have the law. And I also knew that the law was engraven upon the plates of brass. And again, I knew that the Lord had delivered Laban into my hands for this cause—that I might obtain the records according to his commandments." Was the law and geneaologies written on Laban's plates the only source of said things availableto Nephi and company and this justified the killing of Laban? Or was killing Laban the mostexpedient way to obtain these records before leaving Jerusalem? Thanks,Jim
Popular Post halconero Posted August 29, 2015 Popular Post Posted August 29, 2015 You're actually asking three questions, so I'll try to answer each. 1) The Law - As far as the Mosaic Law goes, it wasn't common practice to keep copies of them around pre-Babylonian conquest. The rise of the scribes, the written law, and the disseminating of them is something that happens after the return from the exile under the Persians. Refer to Ezra-Nehemiah for a more thorough explanation of the development of Hebrew literature. So Nephi/Laban likely had their hands on one of the few recorded copies of the Law. 2) Genealogy - It seems as though the Brass plates not only contained the Mosaic Law, the words of the prophet, but were also a tribal record for Manasseh. Considering the wealth of Laban, and the jealousy with which he guarded it, it was likely THE tribal record. Considering that property laws went along tribal lines, and Laban's concern for material wealth, it's easy to see that his fondness for it likely lay in more worldly concerns than scriptural. (at the same time, we know he associated with certain religious elders of the city, so who knows) 3) Expediency - Definitely expedient, not only for Lehi's family but for God. Consider the following:There are four types of capital punishment outlined by God in Mosaic Law, each one different depending on the crime: Sekila - Stoning: Usually for sexual crimes, crimes against God's transcendent laws, etc.Serefah - Burning: Mostly incestuous crimes Chenek - Strangulation: Mostly crimes including false prophesy, injuring family, kidnapping, etc. And the one I want to focus on, Hereg - Beheading by a sword: For the act of premeditated murder (attempted or realized), and for being leader of a city gone astray. While approval by a Sanhedrin (basically an organized court of Elders) was preferred to authorize an act of Hereg, it was not considered absolutely necessary in cases where premeditated murder was attempted or being plotted. In this case, anyone from Hebrew society was authorized to carry out the act of execution as a preventative measure. These laws are specifically referred to as thee laws of Bekhol'adam and Bekhol'mita. Interestingly, the person carrying out the act of execution was referred to as the "Go'el," or the Redeemer, whether it be the redeemer of kin, or the avenger of God's covenant. Aside from stopping an attempted or realized murderer, hereg was also mandated by God against a member or leader of a city gone astray. These were cities who previously worshiped and had entered into a covenant with YHWH, but who had turned themselves over to the worship of idols. Considering the state of Jerusalem at the time of Lehi's departure, the fact that Zedekiah had almost certainly named one of his sons after a baby-burning deity (Mulek was actually Mulech in the printer's document of the Book of Mormon), and that Laban was evidently some religious/governmental authority, I think he definitely qualifies under this. In this manner, the Spirit was not prompting Nephi to break some commandment against killing. He was prompting Nephi to fulfill his covenant duty as a member of Israel at the time in Redeeming/Avenging God's law and his family against Laban. Nephi hesitancy doesn't come from breaking the commandments, as he says in the scriptures, but from the fact that he had never personally slain someone before. Sources on capital punishment:https://books.google.ca/books?id=ZrSIjzIk_IAC&pg=PA155&lpg=PA155&dq=hereg+capital+punishment+hebrew&source=bl&ots=ZCS7qndeUb&sig=CbuJRFxJjlT2d7S8pUva7ou2j_4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDcQ6AEwBGoVChMIiKbJ7onNxwIV2AWOCh3UCQmA#v=onepage&q=hereg%20capital%20punishment%20hebrew&f=falsehttp://www.adath-shalom.ca/shofetim-1-cap%20punishment.1.docx 7
PeterPear Posted August 29, 2015 Posted August 29, 2015 And the fact that he did so likely had the unitended consequence of placing some fear into his older brothers.(Not recommemded today.)
Bobbieaware Posted August 29, 2015 Posted August 29, 2015 (edited) I had some questions on this passage.1 Nephi 4:15-19 says, "Yea, and I also thought that they could not keep the commandments of the Lord according to the law of Moses, save they should have the law. And I also knew that the law was engraven upon the plates of brass. And again, I knew that the Lord had delivered Laban into my hands for this cause—that I might obtain the records according to his commandments."Was the law and geneaologies written on Laban's plates the only source of said things availableto Nephi and company and this justified the killing of Laban? Or was killing Laban the mostexpedient way to obtain these records before leaving Jerusalem?Thanks,JimLaban was an organized crime boss and murderer, who didn't even hesitate for a second to send out his personal assassins to kill Nephi and his brethren in order to cover up the fact that he had just robbed Lehi and his family all their vast material wealth. Laban was an utterly corrupt criminal who didn't deserve to continue breathing air on planet earth, so God, as sovereign lawgiver of the universe, commanded Nephi to execute the sentence of capital punishment that the desperately wicked Laban so richly deserved. You would have already understood these things if you had taken into consideration all the facts surrounding this extraordinary situation. Edited August 29, 2015 by Bobbieaware
Rain Posted August 29, 2015 Posted August 29, 2015 You're actually asking three questions, so I'll try to answer each.1) The Law - As far as the Mosaic Law goes, it wasn't common practice to keep copies of them around pre-Babylonian conquest. The rise of the scribes, the written law, and the disseminating of them is something that happens after the return from the exile under the Persians. Refer to Ezra-Nehemiah for a more thorough explanation of the development of Hebrew literature. So Nephi/Laban likely had their hands on one of the few recorded copies of the Law.2) Genealogy - It seems as though the Brass plates not only contained the Mosaic Law, the words of the prophet, but were also a tribal record for Manasseh. Considering the wealth of Laban, and the jealousy with which he guarded it, it was likely THE tribal record. Considering that property laws went along tribal lines, and Laban's concern for material wealth, it's easy to see that his fondness for it likely lay in more worldly concerns than scriptural. (at the same time, we know he associated with certain religious elders of the city, so who knows)3) Expediency - Definitely expedient, not only for Lehi's family but for God. Consider the following:There are four types of capital punishment outlined by God in Mosaic Law, each one different depending on the crime:Sekila - Stoning: Usually for sexual crimes, crimes against God's transcendent laws, etc.Serefah - Burning: Mostly incestuous crimesChenek - Strangulation: Mostly crimes including false prophesy, injuring family, kidnapping, etc.And the one I want to focus on,Hereg - Beheading by a sword: For the act of premeditated murder (attempted or realized), and for being leader of a city gone astray.While approval by a Sanhedrin (basically an organized court of Elders) was preferred to authorize an act of Hereg, it was not considered absolutely necessary in cases where premeditated murder was attempted or being plotted. In this case, anyone from Hebrew society was authorized to carry out the act of execution as a preventative measure. These laws are specifically referred to as thee laws of Bekhol'adam and Bekhol'mita. Interestingly, the person carrying out the act of execution was referred to as the "Go'el," or the Redeemer, whether it be the redeemer of kin, or the avenger of God's covenant.Aside from stopping an attempted or realized murderer, hereg was also mandated by God against a member or leader of a city gone astray. These were cities who previously worshiped and had entered into a covenant with YHWH, but who had turned themselves over to the worship of idols. Considering the state of Jerusalem at the time of Lehi's departure, the fact that Zedekiah had almost certainly named one of his sons after a baby-burning deity (Mulek was actually Mulech in the printer's document of the Book of Mormon), and that Laban was evidently some religious/governmental authority, I think he definitely qualifies under this.In this manner, the Spirit was not prompting Nephi to break some commandment against killing. He was prompting Nephi to fulfill his covenant duty as a member of Israel at the time in Redeeming/Avenging God's law and his family against Laban. Nephi hesitancy doesn't come from breaking the commandments, as he says in the scriptures, but from the fact that he had never personally slain someone before.Sources on capital punishment:https://books.google.ca/books?id=ZrSIjzIk_IAC&pg=PA155&lpg=PA155&dq=hereg+capital+punishment+hebrew&source=bl&ots=ZCS7qndeUb&sig=CbuJRFxJjlT2d7S8pUva7ou2j_4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDcQ6AEwBGoVChMIiKbJ7onNxwIV2AWOCh3UCQmA#v=onepage&q=hereg%20capital%20punishment%20hebrew&f=falsehttp://www.adath-shalom.ca/shofetim-1-cap%20punishment.1.docxThat is the first time an explanation has made sense to me.
CV75 Posted August 29, 2015 Posted August 29, 2015 Was the law and geneaologies written on Laban's plates the only source of said things availableto Nephi and company and this justified the killing of Laban? Or was killing Laban the mostexpedient way to obtain these records before leaving Jerusalem?In addition to halconero's excellent explanation, the brass plates were the least corruptible media upon which these things were preserved, ensuring their availability and reliability for future generations, including the familial, govermental and preistly/eccelsiastical legitimacy of the stewards.
theplains Posted August 29, 2015 Author Posted August 29, 2015 You're actually asking three questions, so I'll try to answer each. Thank you. Explained very well. Jim
hagoth7 Posted August 30, 2015 Posted August 30, 2015 (edited) That is the first time an explanation has made sense to me.It was great stuff. There's also this part of the law, in the chapter right after the chapter that contains the ten commandments...https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/ex/21.13?lang=eng#12A comparison of 1 Nephi 3-4 would show that the spirit was reminding Nephi of the law. And, as promised in the law, he was given a place to flee. Edited August 30, 2015 by hagoth7 2
Russell C McGregor Posted September 2, 2015 Posted September 2, 2015 You're actually asking three questions, so I'll try to answer each. 1) The Law - As far as the Mosaic Law goes, it wasn't common practice to keep copies of them around pre-Babylonian conquest. The rise of the scribes, the written law, and the disseminating of them is something that happens after the return from the exile under the Persians. Refer to Ezra-Nehemiah for a more thorough explanation of the development of Hebrew literature. So Nephi/Laban likely had their hands on one of the few recorded copies of the Law. 2) Genealogy - It seems as though the Brass plates not only contained the Mosaic Law, the words of the prophet, but were also a tribal record for Manasseh. Considering the wealth of Laban, and the jealousy with which he guarded it, it was likely THE tribal record. Considering that property laws went along tribal lines, and Laban's concern for material wealth, it's easy to see that his fondness for it likely lay in more worldly concerns than scriptural. (at the same time, we know he associated with certain religious elders of the city, so who knows) 3) Expediency - Definitely expedient, not only for Lehi's family but for God. Consider the following: There are four types of capital punishment outlined by God in Mosaic Law, each one different depending on the crime: Sekila - Stoning: Usually for sexual crimes, crimes against God's transcendent laws, etc. Serefah - Burning: Mostly incestuous crimes Chenek - Strangulation: Mostly crimes including false prophesy, injuring family, kidnapping, etc. And the one I want to focus on, Hereg - Beheading by a sword: For the act of premeditated murder (attempted or realized), and for being leader of a city gone astray. While approval by a Sanhedrin (basically an organized court of Elders) was preferred to authorize an act of Hereg, it was not considered absolutely necessary in cases where premeditated murder was attempted or being plotted. In this case, anyone from Hebrew society was authorized to carry out the act of execution as a preventative measure. These laws are specifically referred to as thee laws of Bekhol'adam and Bekhol'mita. Interestingly, the person carrying out the act of execution was referred to as the "Go'el," or the Redeemer, whether it be the redeemer of kin, or the avenger of God's covenant. Aside from stopping an attempted or realized murderer, hereg was also mandated by God against a member or leader of a city gone astray. These were cities who previously worshiped and had entered into a covenant with YHWH, but who had turned themselves over to the worship of idols. Considering the state of Jerusalem at the time of Lehi's departure, the fact that Zedekiah had almost certainly named one of his sons after a baby-burning deity (Mulek was actually Mulech in the printer's document of the Book of Mormon), and that Laban was evidently some religious/governmental authority, I think he definitely qualifies under this. In this manner, the Spirit was not prompting Nephi to break some commandment against killing. He was prompting Nephi to fulfill his covenant duty as a member of Israel at the time in Redeeming/Avenging God's law and his family against Laban. Nephi hesitancy doesn't come from breaking the commandments, as he says in the scriptures, but from the fact that he had never personally slain someone before. Sources on capital punishment: https://books.google.ca/books?id=ZrSIjzIk_IAC&pg=PA155&lpg=PA155&dq=hereg+capital+punishment+hebrew&source=bl&ots=ZCS7qndeUb&sig=CbuJRFxJjlT2d7S8pUva7ou2j_4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDcQ6AEwBGoVChMIiKbJ7onNxwIV2AWOCh3UCQmA#v=onepage&q=hereg%20capital%20punishment%20hebrew&f=false http://www.adath-shalom.ca/shofetim-1-cap%20punishment.1.docx Brilliant! Thank you.
Rain Posted September 2, 2015 Posted September 2, 2015 I'm sorry if I accidentally reported this more than once. I didn't mean to. I'm also sorry if I didn't actually report it because I didn't have "permission to do that."
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