How Do Lds View Suffering

[savedbygrace]

The reason for my question is that soon, in the UK, a euthanasia bill will come before parliament. It worries me. So out of interest, how do you view suffering, do you see anything positive that can come from it. Do you think it is our right to say, ok I've had enough, I want to shuffle off. Do you think that we have this right even though our lives are God given?

[bluebell]

LDS doctrine on suicide is that it's a sin (taking into account mental illness which can mean that someone is not responsible for their actions), but that God is the final judge.  I can't imagine that suicide because of terminal illness is much different but maybe it is?  

[jkwilliams]

My wife used to work in nursing homes, and she has told me that assisted suicide happens quietly all the time. Morphine is often prescribed for pain but given in lethal doses. Having seen so much suffering, she is adamant that people should have the right to end their lives. I don't think her attitude is typical for a member of the church.

[jkwilliams]

As to the OP, I think we make a mistake in believing that all suffering is meaningful. Sometimes it's just suffering.

[ksfisher]

As to the OP, I think we make a mistake in believing that all suffering is meaningful. Sometimes it's just suffering.

 

Perhaps it's how you and those around you handle the suffering that is meaningful.

[hagoth7]

The reason for my question is that soon, in the UK, a euthanasia bill will come before parliament. It worries me. So out of interest, how do you view suffering, do you see anything positive that can come from it. Do you think it is our right to say, ok I've had enough, I want to shuffle off. Do you think that we have this right even though our lives are God given?

 

Several years back, we visited my grandfather who lived in another area of North America. He was paralyzed by a stroke, and had been in that state for several weeks.

He privately begged me to kill him. I had to quietly say sorry, but that's one thing I couldn't do for him. Perhaps I'm unkind for declining. I frankly don't know. Perhaps someday I will know.

Since then, I've allowed my vet to let a cat go when she was suffering. Same for an aging dog. I hesitate to do such a thing, however, for a human.

 

This morning, my son was terrified of going to the dentist. And I had to explain to him that he could be brave and told him that pain is one of the things we are here to experience on earth.

 

Perhaps one of the reasons for pain is to help us one day better understand and appreciate what Christ went through for us, even if it is a tiny glimpse of such pain and compassion.

Frankly I have no idea why it is the way that it is. But I am confident that it is for our own good.

Edited August 18, 2015 by hagoth7

[ksfisher]

From Handbook 2: Administering the Church

 

 21.3.3

Euthanasia

Euthanasia is defined as deliberately putting to death a person who is suffering from an incurable condition or disease. A person who participates in euthanasia, including assisting someone to commit suicide, violates the commandments of God. (See also 21.3.8.)

 

21.3.8

Prolonging Life

When severe illness strikes, members should exercise faith in the Lord and seek competent medical assistance. However, when dying becomes inevitable, it should be seen as a blessing and a purposeful part of eternal existence. Members should not feel obligated to extend mortal life by means that are unreasonable. These judgments are best made by family members after receiving wise and competent medical advice and seeking divine guidance through fasting and prayer.

[jkwilliams]

Perhaps it's how you and those around you handle the suffering that is meaningful.

 

I've seen people who are mentally out of it completely but who are still in a great deal of pain. The idea that God would make them suffer so that I will take some meaning from it is repugnant. 

[stemelbow]

I've seen people who are mentally out of it completely but who are still in a great deal of pain. The idea that God would make them suffer so that I will take some meaning from it is repugnant.

Watching the suffering of others is the greatest suffering I've had in my life. It may seem morally repugnant to us, but how would we know? We don't really seem to accept/understand how suffering is supposed to help us eternally. We just don't see that far ahead.

If we're aspiring to be like God then what we have ahead of us, if anything, is standing idly by watching people suffer. If our mortal suffering is the worst of the worst then it'd be awful to think God is out there watching the billions suffer in mortality while doing next to nothing to stop their suffering. If our mortal suffering including our suffering for others suffering is a necessity that benefits us eternally in ways we don't know, then that's something. I suppose we have to have hope for that, else there be no God, else if there be a God He's not worth knowing.

[ksfisher]

I've seen people who are mentally out of it completely but who are still in a great deal of pain. The idea that God would make them suffer so that I will take some meaning from it is repugnant. 

 

Do you believe that God "makes" people suffer?  Or do you believe that suffering is a part of this mortal existence that all of us agreed to participate in? (or perhaps a third alternative).

 

To put things in context, my mother was diagnosed with MS about forty years ago.  The past ten she has really deteriorated.  While it has been very difficult for her, if you ask her how she is, even today, she'll say "fine."  My children have learned to to caring and compassionate towards someone who struggles to feed herself and form complete sentances.  Perhaps I'm being selfish, but if she had taken an easy way out ten years ago my children would have missed out on knowing, loving, and learning to serve there grandmother.

 

"And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good."

D&C 122:7

[jkwilliams]

Watching the suffering of others is the greatest suffering I've had in my life. It may seem morally repugnant to us, but how would we know? We don't really seem to accept/understand how suffering is supposed to help us eternally. We just don't see that far ahead.

If we're aspiring to be like God then what we have ahead of us, if anything, is standing idly by watching people suffer. If our mortal suffering is the worst of the worst then it'd be awful to think God is out there watching the billions suffer in mortality while doing next to nothing to stop their suffering. If our mortal suffering including our suffering for others suffering is a necessity that benefits us eternally in ways we don't know, then that's something. I suppose we have to have hope for that, else there be no God, else if there be a God He's not worth knowing.

 

Either that, or we can just acknowledge that sometimes suffering may serve no meaningful purpose. 

[stemelbow]

Either that, or we can just acknowledge that sometimes suffering may serve no meaningful purpose.

Well we'd have to know to acknowledge. Not sure we are in a place to do that.

[The Nehor]

I prefer to view it from a distance. Just a personal preference.

[jkwilliams]

Do you believe that God "makes" people suffer?  Or do you believe that suffering is a part of this mortal existence that all of us agreed to participate in? (or perhaps a third alternative).

 

To put things in context, my mother was diagnosed with MS about forty years ago.  The past ten she has really deteriorated.  While it has been very difficult for her, if you ask her how she is, even today, she'll say "fine."  My children have learned to to caring and compassionate towards someone who struggles to feed herself and form complete sentances.  Perhaps I'm being selfish, but if she had taken an easy way out ten years ago my children would have missed out on knowing, loving, and learning to serve there grandmother.

 

"And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good."

D&C 122:7

 

No, actually, I believe that lots of things cause suffering, including random chance. Did we sign up for all this? I don't know. And I'm sorry to hear about your mother. 

[Ahab]

My wife suffers daily from a lot of health problems and sometimes it is very hard to deal with, for her and for me. For me because I do not like to see her suffer. She still has good times, though. She still enjoys living. And I enjoy having her with me when we can be together. But there are still some times when her suffering really gets her and me down. And yet we still have our good times too.

One of the things I say often is that we are mortal only once in our lives, (usually, except for NDE-ers or people who die and come back and then die again later), so this is the time to experience what it is like to be mortal. It's not like we really want to die but it will happen anyway sooner or later. Until then we'd both just rather go on living, even if we have to suffer some more before we each die. Living is something we both like.

[jkwilliams]

Well we'd have to know to acknowledge. Not sure we are in a place to do that.

 

True. I think if I were nearing the end, and I wasn't doing anything but causing other people sorrow and suffering, I might consider just checking out. I wouldn't want my family saddled with huge bills and having their memories of me clouded by misery at the end.

[stemelbow]

True. I think if I were nearing the end, and I wasn't doing anything but causing other people sorrow and suffering, I might consider just checking out. I wouldn't want my family saddled with huge bills and having their memories of me clouded by misery at the end.

me too.

[JAHS]

Either that, or we can just acknowledge that sometimes suffering may serve no meaningful purpose. 

I think all suffering can serve a meangful purpose, either to the one suffering or to loved ones who suffer with them. For one thing it is part of our life expereince which is part of the reason we are here. If it gives us this experience that we are here for then it is all meaningful. It provokes compassion and expressions of love and support from loved ones of those who suffer. It gives opportunities for others to serve the one suffering.  

 

"And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him." (John 9: 2-3)

 

It gives God the opportuinity to see how we serve those who do suffer and how those who are suffering handle the situation. It can even affect the lives of strangers who have no immediate relationship to the one suffering. I read about a Bishop I don't know who was attacked this week and is clinging to life. My thoughts and prayers go to him and his family. That is meaningful to me and to them and to God. 

One could say there is "needless" suffering. If that guy would not have attacked the Bishop, the Bishop would not be suffering now. But how it affects others can serve a meaningful purpose in some way.

[Ahab]

True. I think if I were nearing the end, and I wasn't doing anything but causing other people sorrow and suffering, I might consider just checking out. I wouldn't want my family saddled with huge bills and having their memories of me clouded by misery at the end.

Nobody is ever so bad that all they do is cause those who love them to suffer, though. Because those who love you love you. They like having you around, even if you do cause them to suffer sometimes. And I say sometimes because it is only sometimes. For those who love you there are always some (other) times when they still like to have you around.

Even you, jk. Even you.

[jkwilliams]

 

I think all suffering can serve a meangful purpose, either to the one suffering or to loved ones who suffer with them. For one thing it is part of our life expereince which is part of the reason we are here. If it gives us this experience that we are here for then it is all meaningful. It provokes compassion and expressions of love and support from loved ones of those who suffer. It gives opportunities for others to serve the one suffering.  

 

"And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him." (John 9: 2-3)

 

It gives God the opportuinity to see how we serve those who do suffer and how those who are suffering handle the situation. It can even affect the lives of strangers who have no immediate relationship to the one suffering. I read about a Bishop I don't know who was attacked this week and is clinging to life. My thoughts and prayers go to him and his family. That is meaningful to me and to them and to God. 

One could say there is "needless" suffering. If that guy would not have attacked the Bishop, the Bishop would not be suffering now. But how it affects others can serve a meaningful purpose in some way.

 

 

I think we can and should look for good things to learn from whatever happens to us in life, but that doesn't necessarily mean that everything that happens is ordained of God to be that way. I believe that actions have consequences, and sometimes random, meaningless things can cause immense suffering. It's not necessary to say it was God's will.

[jkwilliams]

Nobody is ever so bad that all they do is cause those who love them to suffer, though. Because those who love you love you. They like having you around, even if you do cause them to suffer sometimes. And I say sometimes because it is only sometimes. For those who love you there are always some (other) times when they still like to have you around.

Even you, jk. Even you.

 

I would like to think that my loved ones would be OK letting me go if I were needlessly suffering. As I mentioned, I know my wife would be fine with it because of her love for me, not in spite of it.

[Ahab]

I would like to think that my loved ones would be OK letting me go if I were needlessly suffering. As I mentioned, I know my wife would be fine with it because of her love for me, not in spite of it.

OK and fine with it? Not me or my wife.

It's not time to go until we just go. Until then there are still moments to enjoy being together and having each other around.

Not that either of us would approve of staying on a machine when otherwise the body would die naturally. But that isn't suffering. That is just keeping the body alive with no spirit in it.

[jkwilliams]

OK and fine with it? Not me or my wife.

It's not time to go until we just go. Until then there are still moments to enjoy being together and having each other around.

Not that either of us would approve of staying on a machine when otherwise the body would die naturally. But that isn't suffering. That is just keeping the body alive with no spirit in it.

 

When I was younger, I was shocked when my wife told me about all the times she had seen doctors intentionally end someone's life. I was doubly shocked that she approved of such things. Now that I'm on the downhill slope, I find myself understanding her position much better and agreeing with it. When it's time for me to go, I fully expect my wife would respect my wishes. If it ever comes to that, I would imagine we wouldn't do anything unless we both agreed it was time.

[JAHS]

I think we can and should look for good things to learn from whatever happens to us in life, but that doesn't necessarily mean that everything that happens is ordained of God to be that way. I believe that actions have consequences, and sometimes random, meaningless things can cause immense suffering. It's not necessary to say it was God's will.

No but it is God's will that we experience everything that happens to us in this life. God does not cause someone to kill another person, but unfortunaely such things are part of this life experience. How we handle the bad things is what God is looking at. That is what gives those things meaning.

[jkwilliams]

No but it is God's will that we experience everything that happens to us in this life. God does not cause someone to kill another person, but unfortunaely such things are part of this life experience. How we handle the bad things is what God is looking at. That is what gives those things meaning.

 

Then if we can choose to avoid suffering, are we justified in doing so?