Does The Seerstone Give You Heartburn?

[BookofMormonLuvr]

The more I studied this issue the more questions I had.  After much investigation I came to the conclusion that no "plates" were used in the "translation", no "nephi interpreters" were used and no "breastplate" were used.  

 

The entire BOM came from the stone, am I correct in saying this?

 

Seems to be...

I believe the plates were left with Joseph for that time so that in those moments of "Is this really happening?" or doubts and persecution he could look to, lift, and see the plates and be assured that, yes, this is all true. Because even prophets struggle with the doubts of the flesh.

[snowflake]

What ever happened to these objects (Nephite interpreters, breastplate)? I know there are lots of stories but does anyone know for sure? First presidencies vault perhaps?

[snowflake]

I'm getting the impression that the stone was used primarily after the manuscript pages were lost...  however I'm not comfortable saying the other artifacts were not used simply because they were not reported on.  The details are still pretty mixed from the various reports.  Being a sacred subject to Joseph and his companions there might be much missing from any written record of the times.

 

Suffice it to say we know the stone was used, and a variety of witnesses testified to this fact. 

That's how I understood it as well, nephite interpreters until the pages were lost, then the stone.  I would agree with you about the other artifacts, I haven't read any accounts of the them being used (by Emma or Joseph's scribes).

[why me]

I agree with what Nevo posted on the other thread regarding your numerous posts about ALL the published articles mentioning the seer stone:

Of course, it is okay to agree with nevo if it suits your purposes. However, the church still mentioned  the seer stones in its publications. And when it did, there was not a mass exodus from the church. I have always known about the seer stone. It was apart of sunday school teaching when the translation process was dicussed in the late 70s. As I mentioned before most members in NYC read Donna Hills biography of Joseph Smith and Arrington's book, the mormon experience in the late 70s. And we discussed it in meetings. My point was simple. We cannot claim that the church was hiding it. I also know that there were more articles than I posted. It went through the seventies, eighties and early nineties with the use of the seer stone.

 

Here is what BYU studies wrote about Hill's book back in the day:

 

https://byustudies.byu.edu/showtitle.aspx?title=8144

 

As we can see from this brief article that much was in that book for those who wished to read it. And if I go back to the Improvement Era, it was often mentioned in that magazine such as this excerpt:

 

http://www.forgottenbooks.com/readbook_text/The_Improvement_Era_v7_1000662536/27

 

Those who advance it ascribe to Urim and Thummim and the Seer Stone qualities not claimed for it by Joseph Smith. I have already called attention to the fact* that the instruments used by the Prophet Joseph in translation were not everything and the Prophet nothing: that the primary factor in the work of translation was the mind of the Prophet enlightened by the Spirit of God; that the instruments he used were merely aids in the work not the primary factors. In Urim and Thummim or Seer Stone appeared, according to the testimony of Martin Harris and David Whitmer, the Nephite characters, and underneath them an interpretation in English; but it was the inspired mind of the Prophet, not any quality in Urim and Thummim or Seer Stone, that wrought out the translation. The translation was thought out in the mind of the Prophet, and confirmed by the Holy Spirit ;f which, in the work of translation, as in all things else of a divine nature, is God's witness for the truth. The Urim and Thummim and Seer Stone possessed the quality of reflecting the Nephite characters, and for the time reflecting also the translation of them wrought out in the inspired mind of the Prophet, and held them before his vision until faithfully recorded; and when this fragment of translation was dismissed from the mind of the Prophet, it disappeared also from Urim and Thummim.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

If it should still be objected that even this view of Urim and Thummim and Seer Stone leaves those instruments many more times wonderful than any instrument of man's invention, it should be remembered that they were instruments prepared or selected by divine intelligence, and as that intelligence far exceeds the intelligence of man, so may it be expected that the instruments of his devising or selection will excel, in quality and power, anything which man could invent. Meantime those instruments which man has contrived to aid him in his search and ascertainment of truth, make belief possible in the existence and use of the more wonderful instruments of God's devising.

 

I think that members should be given such material and the other material that I linked. It will show that the informatiion was in church publications in the not too distant past.

Edited August 11, 2015 by why me

[williamsmith]

Well, It's just that it appears that the use of seer stones turns out to be completely unnecessary.

 

I wouldn't say that at all.

 

Human beings are made of matter, and are also imperfect.

Thus, the usage of "objects (aka matter)" can sometimes focus and create connections between the spiritual and material realm.

 

When reading Joseph's history with revelation, the stones etc., it seems clear that Joseph was learning, and also wasn't perfect, thus needed help sometimes.

In his treasure hunting days (a common child activity with those who live in small towns) it seems clear he was discovering his prophetic ability, and was trying to use it, and learn to use it, to gain something from it.

Of course, it was an improper usage of his gift, so he wasn't too successful, though apparently had some success given the positive testimony for him, which caused him to not be convicted when taken to court over his treasure hunting.

 

In time, it became clear that he didn't need anything at all to receive revelation and translate.

[Bernard Gui]

Hello, out there....about the topic of this thread....

"The High Priest is immediately enveloped by the spirit of Divine inspiration. He gazes at the breastplate, and by meditating upon the holy names of G-d, the priest was able to receive the answer through a prophetic vision-the letters on the stones of the breastplate, which would shine forth in his eyes in a special manner, spelling out the answer to the question."

“Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light. And in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear and under it was the interpretation in English."

Any thoughts about the Temple Institute essay on the Urim and Thummim?

The seer stone and the Uv'T both spelling out words of revelation in shining stones?

Moreover, the account of Moroni sending men to inquire of Alma (who possessed the interpreters) where he should send his armies to defend against the Lamanite invasion is precisely the same as the example given in the TI essay.

No one finds this interesting?

Edited August 12, 2015 by Bernard Gui

[hagoth7]

...No one finds this interesting?

I do.

[bluebell]

I just saw this posted on a friend's Facebook page who (as far as i knew) is a believing member.  They seem very angry about it all.  And the author the blog is definitely mad.  I honestly don't get it though.  

 

http://amjunus.blogspot.ca/2015/08/the-face-in-hat-and-few-other-nifty.html

[ALarson]

I just saw this posted on a friend's Facebook page who (as far as i knew) is a believing member.  They seem very angry about it all.  And the author the blog is definitely mad.  I honestly don't get it though.  

 

http://amjunus.blogspot.ca/2015/08/the-face-in-hat-and-few-other-nifty.html

Interesting blog post.  I think this expresses how many now feel upon learning the truth regarding the seer stone.

 

I was discussing some things with my Bishop last evening and he said this whole releasing of the seer stone information is causing even more members to come to him with questions.  He said even some of the most stalwart are struggling with this.  

 

Many poo poo this and say that members should just take it in stride.  But, I think it's kind of a cluster once a member learns about the seer stone.

 

First, if they had ever heard about Joseph using a seer stone, it was for treasure seeking and just dismissed as being anti lies.  Now they learn that this was the truth and that Joseph used the same stone to translate the Book of Mormon.  Then they learn he put the stone in his hat (and his head in the hat) and wonder where the gold plates were.  Next they learn the plates were not even present for most of the translation process.  This leads to them wondering what else has been misrepresented or taught in error.

[jkwilliams]

Interesting blog post.  I think this expresses how many now feel upon learning the truth regarding the seer stone.

 

I was discussing some things with my Bishop last evening and he said this whole releasing of the seer stone information is causing even more members to come to him with questions.  He said even some of the most stalwart are struggling with this.  

 

Many poo poo this and say that members should just take it in stride.  But, I think it's kind of a cluster once a member learns about the seer stone.

 

First, if they had ever heard about Joseph using a seer stone, it was for treasure seeking and just dismissed as being anti lies.  Now they learn that this was the truth and that Joseph used the same stone to translate the Book of Mormon.  Then they learn he put the stone in his hat (and his head in the hat) and wonder where the gold plates were.  Next they learn the plates were not even present for most of the translation process.  This leads to them wondering what else has been misrepresented or taught in error.

 

I'd say that members and priesthood leaders can best help by trying to understand why people like that are upset, but then that would be whining, so never mind.

[ttribe]

I just saw this posted on a friend's Facebook page who (as far as i knew) is a believing member.  They seem very angry about it all.  And the author the blog is definitely mad.  I honestly don't get it though.  

 

http://amjunus.blogspot.ca/2015/08/the-face-in-hat-and-few-other-nifty.html

 

How long before we do start to "get it," though?  The Church is made up of people with different backgrounds, different personalities, different cultural influences, different ways of looking at the world, looking at evidence, dealing with new information, dealing with life in general.  People have been telling us for years that it can be hard for them to digest new information on these issues.  We better start "getting it" soon, if all of these people matter to us.

[jkwilliams]

How long before we do start to "get it," though?  The Church is made up of people with different backgrounds, different personalities, different cultural influences, different ways of looking at the world, looking at evidence, dealing with new information, dealing with life in general.  People have been telling us for years that it can be hard for them to digest new information on these issues.  We better start "getting it" soon, if all of these people matter to us.

Whiner!

[ttribe]

Whiner!

 

[rodheadlee]

How long before we do start to "get it," though?  The Church is made up of people with different backgrounds, different personalities, different cultural influences, different ways of looking at the world, looking at evidence, dealing with new information, dealing with life in general.  People have been telling us for years that it can be hard for them to digest new information on these issues.  We better start "getting it" soon, if all of these people matter to us.

Just what exactly would "getting it" entail?

[ttribe]

Just what exactly would "getting it" entail?

 

Perhaps it could start with some empathy?  An effort to step into the shoes of the person wrestling with the issue?  Perhaps not immediately telling the struggling individual that they were lazy and didn't look for the information, so it's their fault?  The beginnings of "getting it" seem pretty simple to me.

[jkwilliams]

Perhaps it could start with some empathy?  An effort to step into the shoes of the person wrestling with the issue?  Perhaps not immediately telling the struggling individual that they were lazy and didn't look for the information, so it's their fault?  The beginnings of "getting it" seem pretty simple to me.

 

Amen to that.

[Stargazer]

I was really excited to see a photograph of the Seer Stone!  Sweet!  I expected that they would keep it under wraps forever, and I am pleased that they finally came out with it.

 

I suppose this is going to adversely affect the faith of some members, but in my opinion we are nearing the time when our faith is going to have to be tested.

 

Too many of us seem to forget that God knows all about the seerstone, and if He gave us our testimony of the Book of Mormon in the first place it was regardless of the seerstone.