Marriage Isn't The Problem - Straight Or Gay....

[sdc999]

As mentioned above, Joseph F. Smith was divorced from his wife.  Do you believe that he was an adulterer?

 

There are exceptions (and yes, sometimes adultery is involved), but it's not up to you to judge.  To get a temple cancellation (some call it a "temple divorce"), the leaders of the church approve of this action.  They are more in a position to judge.

 

I do agree with your statement: "Choose your spouse wisely and work hard."  

I do not know the circumstances to his divorce so I am not in  a position to state that.  I've never said I was to judge their eternal consequences.  But judging someone on their actions is not a bad thing always.  Responsible christian people do that everyday.  Having daughters, I have 'judged' potential dates on many occasions.  

But I say back, where and what circumstances does the Bible allow for divorce?  Did those circumstances apply in J F. Smith's case?

 

 

What would you do if your wife someday "felt" that she wasn't happy being your wife and that there was no way to change that because YOU are the problem because of the way that you are. Unless maybe YOU changed, which she had been hoping for a very long time, but that now she sees that YOU are never going to change in that way. So now she "feels" like it's just better for both of you to move on so she can find someone else who is the kind of person that she really wants to be married to forever.

Basically, she decides that she just can't be happy with you as long as you are the way you are, but which is the way that you want to be.

That's the thing about marriage. Both have to want to stay in it and if one person decides to give up on the other person then that other person is left as the one that was given up on. And sometimes for good reasons, like adultery or abuse.

Fortunately my one and only spouse has never given up on me, and I don't intend to give her a good reason, and I hope you never give your spouse a good reason either.

2 people of the same sex never have a good reason to marry each other, of course, even if they truly love each other. Everybody should love everybody, but men should marry women and women should marry men.

That's never been a "what if" in my life.  I choose not to dwell and imagine bad case scenarios.  Much the same as "what if" I was with  xxxxxx instead of my wife.  I won't entertain those thoughts either.    I could say that I don't know why my marriage has lasted longer than many others but that would be a lie.  It has lasted because we work hard at it.  We are equally yoked as the saying goes.  We have Christ in our marriage and in raising our children.  

 

And again, I'm not a fan of same sex marriage.  I'm not a fan of a lot of things but those things are not allowed to dictate my happiness and relationship with my wife.    But if as much focus was placed on making marriages last as there has been on keeping others in line with a particular set of beliefs, we would have a stronger society, economy, etc and the world really would be better.  

 

Disclosure:  In the words of Ron White, "You Can't Fix Stupid"  There will ALWAYS be some from every walk of life that are the bad apples of the bunch.  There are bad Mormons, bad Gay people, bad black people, bad white people but labeling the entire group by the actions of a few does not represent the group as a whole.   

[CV75]

I do not know the circumstances to his divorce so I am not in  a position to state that.  I've never said I was to judge their eternal consequences.  But judging someone on their actions is not a bad thing always.  Responsible christian people do that everyday.  Having daughters, I have 'judged' potential dates on many occasions.  

But I say back, where and what circumstances does the Bible allow for divorce?  Did those circumstances apply in J F. Smith's case?

 

 

That's never been a "what if" in my life.  I choose not to dwell and imagine bad case scenarios.  Much the same as "what if" I was with  xxxxxx instead of my wife.  I won't entertain those thoughts either.    I could say that I don't know why my marriage has lasted longer than many others but that would be a lie.  It has lasted because we work hard at it.  We are equally yoked as the saying goes.  We have Christ in our marriage and in raising our children.  

 

And again, I'm not a fan of same sex marriage.  I'm not a fan of a lot of things but those things are not allowed to dictate my happiness and relationship with my wife.    But if as much focus was placed on making marriages last as there has been on keeping others in line with a particular set of beliefs, we would have a stronger society, economy, etc and the world really would be better.  

 

Disclosure:  In the words of Ron White, "You Can't Fix Stupid"  There will ALWAYS be some from every walk of life that are the bad apples of the bunch.  There are bad Mormons, bad Gay people, bad black people, bad white people but labeling the entire group by the actions of a few does not represent the group as a whole.   

To be successful, there has to be a good reason for making marriages last; this reason hinges on a certain set of beliefs (whatever those may be); and, these beliefs require focus and attention.  The most common and oldest of these beliefs worldwide have a religious basis, irrespective of politics, economics, etc. So religious reasons and beliefs are the best we have.

 

The need to make same-sex marriages last for the sake of society’s well-being has never been established, so a focus on that alone would prove to be a gross distraction requiring artificial supplanting of the most common and oldest of beliefs with some other contrivance, such as a top-down change in the law. Converting to a non-religious construct to cater to a non-religious institution threatens religious freedom.

 

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/the-divine-institution-of-marriage

[california boy]

With reference to same sex activities, tell me, why (in your opinion) does God say don't do it?

In my opinion God teaches that the law of chastity is defined as no sex outside of marriage

There is no revelation or scripture telling us how God feels about same sex within marriage. Who are we to presume Gods will on this subject rather than seek revelation. Prophets have guessed Gods will wrong before and in doing so, denied many of the blessings of the temple.

[california boy]

Yes, it was Joseph F. Smith who was divorced from his first, legal wife (Livira Annette Clark Smith). They were married in 1859 and she divorced him in 1868.

All other Prophets before him (other that Joseph Smith if I'm not mistaken) also were divorced but they were from polygamous marriages.

Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were also divorced from one of their polygamist wives.

[CV75]

In my opinion God teaches that the law of chastity is defined as no sex outside of marriage

There is no revelation or scripture telling us how God feels about same sex within marriage. Who are we to presume Gods will on this subject rather than seek revelation. Prophets have guessed Gods will wrong before and in doing so, denied many of the blessings of the temple.

What revelation speaks to same-sex marriage? What are your presumptions and guesses, and haven’t you been wrong before? Have your decisions ever denied any within the scope of your influence the blessings of the temple, at least at some level, from some perspective, and for some time? Have you received revelation for the world on the subject?

 

I think the preponderance of material accessible to the world supports the position that marriage between a man and a woman is the only such institution ordained of God and that “same sex” within a marriage by definition would require a same-sex partner outside of that two-gender marriage, bringing the joyous, heartfelt abomination outside of law of chastity.

[Ahab]

That's never been a "what if" in my life. I choose not to dwell and imagine bad case scenarios. Much the same as "what if" I was with xxxxxx instead of my wife. I won't entertain those thoughts either. I could say that I don't know why my marriage has lasted longer than many others but that would be a lie. It has lasted because we work hard at it. We are equally yoked as the saying goes. We have Christ in our marriage and in raising our children.

Your life includes your thoughts regarding other people besides yourself, doesn't it? Rhetorical question. Answer, yes it does. So just think about someone in any marriage giving up on the other person in that marriage the next time you think about how bad it is that some other people have gotten divorced from their once-upon-a-time spouse. In some marriages one or both spouses give up on each other, and without a good reason. And then again sometimes there is a good reason to give up on a spouse, even if some people are willing to keep working at it anyway.

I think it is always sad even if there is a good reason for a marriage to end in divorce.

[california boy]

What revelation speaks to same-sex marriage? What are your presumptions and guesses, and haven’t you been wrong before? Have your decisions ever denied any within the scope of your influence the blessings of the temple, at least at some level, from some perspective, and for some time? Have you received revelation for the world on the subject?

I think the preponderance of material accessible to the world supports the position that marriage between a man and a woman is the only such institution ordained of God and that “same sex” within a marriage by definition would require a same-sex partner outside of that two-gender marriage, bringing the joyous, heartfelt abomination outside of law of chastity.

I have no idea what you are talking about or what your post is trying to suggest. Could you be more clear?

I have only given my opinion and stated the fact that there has never been a revelation declared concerning the will of God for his gay children

[sdc999]

Your life includes your thoughts regarding other people besides yourself, doesn't it? Rhetorical question. Answer, yes it does. So just think about someone in any marriage giving up on the other person in that marriage the next time you think about how bad it is that some other people have gotten divorced from their once-upon-a-time spouse. In some marriages one or both spouses give up on each other, and without a good reason. And then again sometimes there is a good reason to give up on a spouse, even if some people are willing to keep working at it anyway.

I think it is always sad even if there is a good reason for a marriage to end in divorce.

So, the LDS church tells individuals that are gay, "it's okay so long as you don't act upon it".  Could this not apply to divorced individuals as well?  I think the Bible specifies some reasons for divorce but other than those?????    Could divorce individuals not be expected to sacrifice their urges for their own satisfaction as well?  Or do they get a pass because it's just easier to look the other way from what the scriptures say? 

If you want to say that they deserve to be happy and loved, you're going to have the gay community come out (no pun intended) and say, 'well, we deserve to be happy as well.' 

 

Divorce is very sad- agreed.  Abuse should never be tolerated.    My statements on divorce are really directed at those  who just decide, "it just didn't workout for us" or the flippant ones.  

[california boy]

So, the LDS church tells individuals that are gay, "it's okay so long as you don't act upon it". Could this not apply to divorced individuals as well? I think the Bible specifies some reasons for divorce but other than those????? Could divorce individuals not be expected to sacrifice their urges for their own satisfaction as well? Or do they get a pass because it's just easier to look the other way from what the scriptures say?

If you want to say that they deserve to be happy and loved, you're going to have the gay community come out (no pun intended) and say, 'well, we deserve to be happy as well.'

Divorce is very sad- agreed. Abuse should never be tolerated. My statements on divorce are really directed at those who just decide, "it just didn't workout for us" or the flippant ones.

Wow great point. Telling your spouse you never want to see or live with them does not require a divorce

[Duncan]

So, the LDS church tells individuals that are gay, "it's okay so long as you don't act upon it".  Could this not apply to divorced individuals as well?  I think the Bible specifies some reasons for divorce but other than those?????    Could divorce individuals not be expected to sacrifice their urges for their own satisfaction as well?  Or do they get a pass because it's just easier to look the other way from what the scriptures say? 

If you want to say that they deserve to be happy and loved, you're going to have the gay community come out (no pun intended) and say, 'well, we deserve to be happy as well.' 

 

Divorce is very sad- agreed.  Abuse should never be tolerated.    My statements on divorce are really directed at those  who just decide, "it just didn't workout for us" or the flippant ones.  

 

 

too bad those of us who have been divorced weren't around to see your shining example of a perfect marriage

[danielwoods]

In my opinion God teaches that the law of chastity is defined as no sex outside of marriage

There is no revelation or scripture telling us how God feels about same sex within marriage. Who are we to presume Gods will on this subject rather than seek revelation. Prophets have guessed Gods will wrong before and in doing so, denied many of the blessings of the temple.

 

God tells us to "not do" a lot of things, the lists of bad things. Among those things are what we now call homosexuality. The current theory is that "gays are born that way" therefore it must be ok and natural. My question is how you deal with this? 

 

It appears that you deny that God states that homosexual practices are wrong or a sin in his sight. Is that correct? 

Edited June 28, 2015 by danielwoods

[sdc999]

too bad those of us who have been divorced weren't around to see your shining example of a perfect marriage

Oh, so sorry you were a failure at it. 

 

But don't get mad at me.  Look at the scriptures to see what applies to your divorce.    If you were abused, I'm glad you got out.  If your spouse cheated, I'm glad you got out.  If it was just easier, I'm sad that you thought so little of the institution of marriage.

Edited June 28, 2015 by sdc999

[california boy]

God tells us to "not do" a lot of things, the lists of bad things. Among those things are what we now call homosexuality. The current theory is that "gays are born that way" therefore it must be ok and natural. My question is how you deal with this?

It appears that you deny that God states that homosexual practices are wrong or a sin in his sight. Is that correct?

Well once again I will state that I have no idea what God thinks of sex within the bounds of gay marriage. No revelation has been received. How could I possibly know Even the prophet doesn't know until he receives a revelation.

The last declared revelation was in 1978. Since then...nothing

[Okrahomer]

Well once again I will state that I have no idea what God thinks of sex within the bounds of gay marriage. No revelation has been received. How could I possibly know Even the prophet doesn't know until he receives a revelation.

The last declared revelation was in 1978. Since then...nothing

I think Danielwoods is a non-LDS evangelical who believes in the inerrancy of the Bible. He likely will not be persuaded by the idea of a modern prophet or the need for continuing revelation.

[Okrahomer]

Oh, so sorry you were a failure at it. .

Matthew 7

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

Those of us who have come to know Duncan through his numerous posts over the years, have ascertained that he is a kind-hearted and jovial follower of Christ...and big-time Canadian. In truth, your response--especially the pre-edited one--seems at least harsh; and at worst unkind and hurtful. Surely we all can do better at remaining civil in our communication--even when we disagree?

[sdc999]

Matthew 7

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

Those of us who have come to know Duncan through his numerous posts over the years, have ascertained that he is a kind-hearted and jovial follower of Christ...and big-time Canadian. In truth, your response--especially the pre-edited one--seems at least harsh; and at worst unkind and hurtful. Surely we all can do better at remaining civil in our communication--even when we disagree?

sorry, sometimes I forget the rules here.  Do not answer a snarky comment with a snarky comment.  apologies extended to you Duncan.

[strappinglad]

I once wrote to BRM concerning the verses about divorce, particularly those in Mark 10. I asked why the church does not actually follow those rules today. His answer was similar to the one Christ gave to the Pharisees about Moses allowing a bill of divorcement . Moses did so because of the hardness of their hearts whereas in the beginning it was not so. BRM said it was because we are not able to live such a law at this time. Maybe we never will be.

Mind you , being an adulterer does not mean one cannot repent and be cleansed and continue toward exaltation.

[Mormonmaniac]

Well once again I will state that I have no idea what God thinks of sex within the bounds of gay marriage. No revelation has been received. How could I possibly know Even the prophet doesn't know until he receives a revelation.

The last declared revelation was in 1978. Since then...nothing

You are simply out of touch with reality. You deny the Prophets and God alike. I wish you would stop your mantra about some seemingly lack of inspiration regarding SSM. The church has been firm, have received a myriad of revelation and inspiration on the matter, and as members we are left with NO DOUBT WHATSOEVER as to the definition of marriage.

[danielwoods]

Well once again I will state that I have no idea what God thinks of sex within the bounds of gay marriage. No revelation has been received. How could I possibly know Even the prophet doesn't know until he receives a revelation.

The last declared revelation was in 1978. Since then...nothing

 

Actually, scripture is clear that marriage is always defined as between a male and female. There is no other marriage in the scripture (even polygamy is man and woman). There is no such a thing as a "gay" marriage, according to God. 

 

So, the question remains, how does one deal with this question. If God says don't do it. Don't practice it. Doesn't that imply that we aren't born that way? 

[Duncan]

Matthew 7

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

Those of us who have come to know Duncan through his numerous posts over the years, have ascertained that he is a kind-hearted and jovial follower of Christ...and big-time Canadian. In truth, your response--especially the pre-edited one--seems at least harsh; and at worst unkind and hurtful. Surely we all can do better at remaining civil in our communication--even when we disagree?

[california boy]

If the church really wanted to stop the biggest threat and most distructive force to families today it could stop divorce in the church

If you can no longer live with your spouse FOR ANY REASON. You can leave them but not divorce. You made a solemn oath to God to marry for time and all eternity. Christ himself forbade divorce

Walking away from your spouse or them walking away from you would mean you would live the rest of your life celibate and alone

Sound familiar? This is the BIG hypocritical part on this whole marriage issue. It is only a moral issue when it is convenient.

Always remember at least you got the opportunity to marry once. That is more than what the church allow if you are gay

[Stargazer]

<snip/>

 

The bible is pretty clear on the divorce topic.    "it just didn't work out" doesn't cut it in the eyes of the Lord.  

 

<snip/>

 

Choose your spouse wisely and work hard.   

 

Easy to say.  I fought tooth and nail to keep my first marriage together, as horrible and as nightmarish as it had become after 4 years, but when she told me, "If you don't give me a divorce I will make you wish you had," the writing was on the wall.  You think I should have just stuck it out after that?

 

I don't even know what her problem with me was.  I was never violent, never abusive, was always faithful (even in the face of her flirting with other men), and worked to provide for us financially.  Since she didn't clean, hated to change diapers (leading to bad baby rash because I couldn't be home all day), wouldn't or couldn't cook, and was out to spend every cent I earned (and then some), I had to carry that load, too.  And since I was in the Army, and had to go into the field periodically for training, things got really messed up.  Because of her unwillingness to take care of the home while I was away, the neighbors called the child protective services on us due to her not watching over the kids properly.  Like I say, it was a nightmare.

 

So, you can just take your idealistic BS and shove it where the sun doesn't shine, because, in the classic sense, I have been there, done that, and the freaking T-Shirt is folded up in my drawer.

 

My current marriage is about to end after 34 years, too, but this time I think you'll approve, since she's dying of cancer.

 

No, I'm not annoyed at you, not at all.  According to the Bible, strictly interpreted by some, I should never have remarried after the first one failed.  And you and they can take that little "doctrine" and blow it out your bazooka, too. 

 

What was it again?  "God said that it is not good for man to be alone?"  Except, if his first marriage blows up, then it's OK?

[california boy]

Easy to say. I fought tooth and nail to keep my first marriage together,

So, you can just take your idealistic BS and shove it where the sun doesn't shine, because, in the classic sense, I have been there, done that, and the freaking T-Shirt is folded up in my drawer

No, I'm not annoyed at you, not at all. According to the Bible, strictly interpreted by some, I should never have remarried after the first one failed. And you and they can take that little "doctrine" and blow it out your bazooka, too.

What was it again? "God said that it is not good for man to be alone?" Except, if his first marriage blows up, then it's OK?

Easy for you to say. I fought tooth and nail to become straight

Now you are sounding more like a strident gay activist Except it is your ox being gored

Edited June 29, 2015 by california boy

[Tacenda]

You are simply out of touch with reality. You deny the Prophets and God alike. I wish you would stop your mantra about some seemingly lack of inspiration regarding SSM. The church has been firm, have received a myriad of revelation and inspiration on the matter, and as members we are left with NO DOUBT WHATSOEVER as to the definition of marriage.

The church was firm on polygamy also. And blacks not receiving the PH because of the curse of cain. And on birth control pills, and not partaking caffeine, and mothers not working outside of the home. It's easy to doubt when we have these examples. Why do we need only prophets and apostles to give us the answers, aren't we told that we can receive revelation as individuals in this church? Or is that only when we get clearance first? Why do we feel so helpless to feel okay with our own revelation? It's all just fluff, the stuff of missionaries or church newsrooms that say individuals can receive personal revelation or inspiration. Because it certainly isn't taken serious when people do.

[Hestia]

Oh, so sorry you were a failure at it. 

 

But don't get mad at me.  Look at the scriptures to see what applies to your divorce.    If you were abused, I'm glad you got out.  If your spouse cheated, I'm glad you got out.  If it was just easier, I'm sad that you thought so little of the institution of marriage.

 

This is judgmental even if someone appears to have gotten out because it was "easier". There is always more to the story. Take a break from thread and think about what you say.