Baptist Scholar Claims Shift In Mormon Doctrine

[cinepro]

Sometimes I get the impression that if we ain't shifting, we ain't doing it right.

I like when McConkie told people that past leaders were working with less knowledge than they had later, thus the shift in the priesthood ban. Hopefully as we continue forward we get more revealed and learn more. causing us to shift.

As to whether we are shifting to the evangelical form of Christianity? I think I see it. We align ourselves with them in many ways in the western culture. I can see how others see us shifting in their direction.

 

Honestly, I'd be hard pressed to point out the last time anything new or interesting was taught in General Conference.  The most we get these days are changes in focus and emphasis, and different programs to implement what has long been known.  Sometimes there might be an attempt to find a new way to look at something, but there isn't ever any new something.

 

It almost makes me a little sad that we don't even expect the Prophet to actually reveal anything new anymore.

[stemelbow]

Honestly, I'd be hard pressed to point out the last time anything new or interesting was taught in General Conference.  The most we get these days are changes in focus and emphasis, and different programs to implement what has long been known.  Sometimes there might be an attempt to find a new way to look at something, but there isn't ever any new something.

 

It almost makes me a little sad that we don't even expect the Prophet to actually reveal anything new anymore.

Causes me some lamenting too. If we are shifting to a more mainstream Christian position we're doing it without any clear revelations. We are adjusting, it seems, policies and the way we communicate things. 50 years ago we probably weren't very far from where we are now, when it comes to our general positions compared to evangelicals. 30 years before that we were probably further away from them. 30 years before that--much different.

[cinepro]

And regarding this point:

 

 

 

that all churches except the LDS Church are “apostate,” they are not Christians.

 

...I suspect there are lots of members of the Church that try to reframe the doctrine on this to be nicer to non-LDS churches, but it's still pretty clear...

 

 

We know there are decent, respectable, humble people in many churches, Christian and otherwise. In turn, sadly enough, there are so-called Latter-day Saints who by comparison are not as worthy, for they do not keep their covenants.

 

But it is not a matter of comparing individuals. We are not baptized collectively, nor will we be judged collectively.

 

Good conduct without the ordinances of the gospel will neither redeem nor exalt mankind; covenants and the ordinances are essential. We are required to teach the doctrines, even the unpopular ones.

 

Yield on this doctrine, and you cannot justify the Restoration. The doctrine is true; it is logical. The opposite is not.

 

Boyd K. Packer, "The Only True Church"

(Although to be fair I've never heard it said that the apostate churches aren't Christian.)

Edited June 22, 2015 by cinepro

[The Nehor]

And regarding this point: (Although to be fair I've never heard it said that the apostate churches aren't Christian.)

I have and I miss McConkie.........

[Bobbieaware]

Honestly, I'd be hard pressed to point out the last time anything new or interesting was taught in General Conference. The most we get these days are changes in focus and emphasis, and different programs to implement what has long been known. Sometimes there might be an attempt to find a new way to look at something, but there isn't ever any new something.

It almost makes me a little

sad that we don't even expect the Prophet to actually reveal anything new anymore.

The Lord has wisely set up his church in such a manner that each individual member is empowered, through the gift of the Holy Ghost and the ordinances of the temple, to become a prophet in his own right. Therefore, if a member is not receiving personal revelation on a regular basis -- spiritual communication from the Lord that continues to enlarge his understanding of the things of God -- he has no one to blame but himself. It's unreasonable to expect that the Lord should reveal the deeper mysteries of his kingdom to the membership at large at a time when the church is increasingly filled with negative-thinking, slothful members who think they have the right to be spiritually spoon-fed without first putting forth the requisite effort needed to become conduits of heavenly light on their own. Expecting the Lord to spoon-feed greater light and knowledge to such members when they already have the right to receive revelation on their own is just as wrongheaded as it is to expect that the Lord should command his people in all things. Alma explains how the process of personal revelation works:

9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him (Zeezrom), saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell. (Alma 12)

Edited June 22, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Robert F. Smith]

 ....................................................................

Between this and the infamous "couplet", President Snow either had a very clear and inspired view of the eternal scheme of things, or he was innovative in ways that modern LDS apologists perhaps wish he hadn't been.

Your unjustified hit at nameless "modern apologists" as disliking such innovation may be de rigueur, but seems odd and like just another straw man to me.  Lorenzo and his sister had some very interesting and beautiful things to say about LDS beliefs, none to be embarrassed about at all.

[Mystery Meat]

Honestly, I'd be hard pressed to point out the last time anything new or interesting was taught in General Conference.  The most we get these days are changes in focus and emphasis, and different programs to implement what has long been known.  Sometimes there might be an attempt to find a new way to look at something, but there isn't ever any new something.

 

It almost makes me a little sad that we don't even expect the Prophet to actually reveal anything new anymore.

 

That says more about us, than it does about the prophet. How much of no new revelation (for the record I do not concede there is no new revelation) comes because the members flat out suck at living what they have been given?

[Tacenda]

Honestly, I'd be hard pressed to point out the last time anything new or interesting was taught in General Conference.  The most we get these days are changes in focus and emphasis, and different programs to implement what has long been known.  Sometimes there might be an attempt to find a new way to look at something, but there isn't ever any new something.

 

It almost makes me a little sad that we don't even expect the Prophet to actually reveal anything new anymore.

Maybe that's why we get the Denver Snuffers and Rock Watermans.

[mfbukowski]

 

 

Just have to share this anecdote every time the subject comes up.  While it is becoming less fashionable to talk about it, LDS doctrine certainly logically leads to the belief that we will "have our own planet" as gods if we achieve exaltation.

 

This is a teaching from President Lorenzo Snow, as published in this manual.

President Snow was visiting a Kindergarten with BY Academy President Brimhall when this happened:

 

 

Between this and the infamous "couplet", President Snow either had a very clear and inspired view of the eternal scheme of things, or he was innovative in ways that modern LDS apologists perhaps wish he hadn't been.

The only problem with your quote is that it says "WORLDS"

 

Plural.

 

Not our "own planet", singular.

<facepalm>

[Jude2]

I think it was just a rhetorical device.  He listed several beliefs which he judged to be necessary for someone to be a "Christian"

 

So the format of his argument was essentially as follows:

 

"To be classified as a Christian one must believe:

1-

2-

3-

4-

5-

To the extent that Mormons teach

Not 1

Not 2

Not 3

Not 4

Not 4

They are not Christians."

 

So he was just going back and denying each point of his defined criteria, to illustrate several points that Christians CANNOT believe (according to his criteria) and STILL be Christians.

 

I did not get the impression that he necessarily was saying Mormons believed or disbelieved ANY of those points- just simply the argument is structured to say that IF anyone does NOT believe any of those principles, they are NOT Christians (in his belief)

 

His intent was not to represent Mormon beliefs, but to describe certain beliefs which would disqualify any Mormons believing those principles from being "Christian"

I’ve looked in vain for a passage which says I must believe 1,2,3 and 4 to be saved but I have found “ He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved”. What I can’t figure out is why that one isn’t on the list? 

[Bobbieaware]

Just have to share this anecdote every time the subject comes up.  While it is becoming less fashionable to talk about it, LDS doctrine certainly logically leads to the belief that we will "have our own planet" as gods if we achieve exaltation. This is a teaching from President Lorenzo Snow, as published in this manual.President Snow was visiting a Kindergarten with BY Academy President Brimhall when this happened:  Between this and the infamous "couplet", President Snow either had a very clear and inspired view of the eternal scheme of things, or he was innovative in ways that modern LDS apologists perhaps wish he hadn't been.

Well since the Bible (not just the LDS scriptures) tells us the exalted are going to start out eternity living on this planet after it's been transformed into a celestial planet (the Book of Revelatiom's "new earth"), why should it seem an outlandish idea to any believer that celestial beings would live on a planet? Wasn't God (Jesus Christ) first born, then lived, then died and then was raised from the dead on this planet (again, it's all recorded in the Bible)? Then why should Bible believers think it strange or silly that exalted beings would live and enjoy life on other planets that are like the Bible's new earth?

Where else are exalted beings going to live? Maybe on an asteroid, or a comet, or perhaps on a cloud made of cosmic dust? Or how about on a quasar, or on a sun, or in a black hole? Or maybe they will live in some sort of semi-real spiritualized realm that's both kind of real and kind of unreal at the same time? (Maybe that kind of ethereal dwelling place will cause the people at the windows of the large and spacious building to subdue their laughter just bit?) So since I think you'll have to agree exalted beings are going to have to live SOMEWHERE, where do you think their tangible resurrected bodies are going to live if not on something like a planet? I will read with great interest your list of possible alternative dwelling places for the exalted, since it appears you believe they're not going to live on planets.

[Rivers]

So how come Catholics are still considered Christian with all of their unique beliefs about purgatory, saints, Mary, sacraments, transubstantion, etc?

How are Mormon teachings weirder than theirs?

[Calm]

They aren't considered Christian by a number of those who don't consider LDS Christian either.

[The Nehor]

So how come Catholics are still considered Christian with all of their unique beliefs about purgatory, saints, Mary, sacraments, transubstantion, etc?

How are Mormon teachings weirder than theirs?

 

Let me introduce you to to......THE DEATH COOKIE!!!!!

 

(cue scary music)

 

 

This message brought to you by the Letter B, the number 5, and the local loon who wrote this that has so mastered neither the letter or number.