Wrapping My Head Around The Godhead

[mfbukowski]

Hi, MFB. From what I see, Sophists were evil and cared nothing for discovering the truth. They only cared about winning debates. For fun they would take one side in a debate and win the argument then they'd take the opposite side in a debate and win that argument, too. They were the antagonists of Ancient Greek philosophers. Socrates said of them:

 

For the [sophist] when he is engaged in a dispute, cares nothing about the rights of the question, but is anxious only to convince his hearers of his own assertions. And the difference between him and me at the present moment is this: That whereas he seeks to convince his hearers that what he says is true, I am rather seeking to convince myself!

(Phaedo)

 

I don't see myself as being like the Sophists he describes, but do you?

 

Yes, that is what I believe about you.  You do not listen and are plotting your move two steps ahead.

 

"If he says that Christ is IN the Godhead, I will say thus and so- if he says the Godhead is IN Christ, I will say this and that!  Either way, I win!"

 

Frankly that is precisely how I see you.   I hope I am mistaken.

[Sp0ckrates]

Of course "Godhead' means a number of things.

The fulness – with one (1) letter “l”*-- of the Godhead (as an organizational unit) dwells, as far as we are concerned, in the physical (resurrected) Christ in that He is an essential part of that Unit. This Unit would have no relevance to us if He were not a part of it or if it were not comprised with Him as a member, since there would be no link between “us” and God.

The fulness of the Godhead (as in the condition of Deity) also dwells bodily in Christ in that the Father has given Him all the things that make Him Who He Is (John 16:15; 3:35; 5:26; 6:27, 39), at least sufficient for our salvation and His eternal glory.

In addition, the fullness of the Godhead (as in divine nature) dwells in Christ bodily in the way that 2 Peter 1:1-8 describes.

All these meanings of the Godhead refer to and are in consequence of the various relationships the Son has with the Father. There is an extensive list of scriptural references about the in the footnote for “fulness” in Colossians 2:9.

* https://books.google.com/books?id=SoVHAQAAMAAJ&pg=PR9&lpg=PR9&dq=what+is+fulness+with+one+l?&source=bl&ots=9x7jbChu3h&sig=fTWNlu05t6ZTvEXKb8zRF635Wy0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAmoVChMItfTck8eZxgIVB2itCh3Guw5P#v=onepage&q=what%20is%20fulness%20with%20one%20l%3F&f=false

OK. So if I consult only the Bible, I suppose I'd find only the second and third way described. Am I correct in thinking the first use of the word Godhead is found only in Mormon scriptures or other Mormon texts?

[mfbukowski]

OK. So if I consult only the Bible, I suppose I'd find only the second and third way described. Am I correct in thinking the first use of the word Godhead is found only in Mormon scriptures or other Mormon texts?

Uh, the Bible is a translation from ancient languages.

 

The word "Godhead" as we understand it did not necessarily exist in the original text, insofar as that is even relevant to the discussion.

 

Do you know what "presentism" means?  It means understanding an ancient word in the way we understand a similar word today.

 

What word the translators used is irrelevant to the concept.  Why is this so hard for you to understand??

Edited June 18, 2015 by mfbukowski

[Sp0ckrates]

Yes....though she may have contact with us in mortality we are not aware of yet.

This is one area we are waiting for further revelation on.

Let me know if I'm saying something I should not, and I will delete this post.

From what I've been told by those who aren't Mormon, Mormons believe the gods procreate pretty much the same way we do, and each human soul here on earth is an offspring of such procreation. If so, the inference would be that such a Mother God would exist.

[Sp0ckrates]

We have very little revealed about the nature of Heavenly Mother. While we do not address her specifically I am quite comfortable with the concept of her being aware of, concerned with, and responsive to my pray in the same same way Heavenly Father is. He is not privy to knowledge she is not.

Protestants and Catholics have enough of a problem with the LDS view of Godhead. I personally suspect (that is, it's my own opinion) that part of the reason the Church hasn't more openly embraced the doctrine of Heavenly Mother is that it would be yet another stumbling block to the world accepting the restored gospel. That will change with time.

Well, Protestants sometimes accuse Catholics of elevating Mary to the state of some kind of Heavenly Mother. But yes, I think you are correct they would oppose such an idea. From what I understand, the Catholic Church and many Protestant denominations say Mormons aren't even Christian.

[Sp0ckrates]

First, a more accurate statement is Col 2:9 does not use the term Godhead to prove the three members of the Godhead, but rather the fullness of divinity being in Jesus the Christ. You are making a huge leap of logic that there is no Biblical evidence for LDS teachings and belief in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Forgive me for being unclear. I'm not saying there is none, but I am wondering if there is some.

I am still not clear what it is you are trying to understand. Do you have problems with the term Godhead? Or are you concerned about something else?

I'm investigating the scriptural evidence for the Mormon doctrine that there are three gods in one Godhead. I'm wondering:

1. Is the word Godhead used in the Bible the way Mormons use it?

2. If not, is the concept taught in the Bible the way Mormons understand it?

3. If not, is the word Godhead used in the Mormon scriptures the way Mormons use it.

4. If not, is the concept taught in the Mormon scriptures?

5. If not, why do Mormons believe it?

I don't have an issue if someone wants to use another label for God the Father, his Son, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost. If you want to call it Trinity that works for me. If you want to call it Grand Pubba, that works too. The issue is more about communicating and gaining an understanding of a specific teaching.

Agreed. it's not the word that matters. It's the meaning of the word.

Based upon your comments I don't think there is a need to explain per scripture the veracity of the teaching of what we call the Godhead. The NT is full of teachings of all three members of the Godhead as is the Book of Mormon and other scripture.

Yeah. Maybe the evidence I'm asking for doesn't exist. Is it something you believe by faith, apart from any biblical or other scriptural evidence? Edited June 18, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Sp0ckrates]

For faithful Latter-day Saints who have been around long enough to be "in the know," its obvious there is much to learn and know about our heavenly mother and her role as an eternal priestess and queen of heaven. Some members are pressuring the leaders of the church to reveal more about heavenly mother's role now, but the leaders have not responded to that pressure. I believe the Lord will reveal more about her sacred role to us when the time is right. I personally believe the theological principles pertaining to heavenly mother constitue a major portion of the "mysteries of the gospel" (Paul's strong meat) that can only be fully revealed when the saints are worthy and have attained enough spiritual maturity to be able to digest the "greater things" the Book of Mormon promises will be revealed at the appropriate time.

I find it interesting that Catholic have given Jesus' mother Mary the title of Queen of Heaven. Though I suspect they have a different concept of the one holding that title.

[thesometimesaint]

Let me know if I'm saying something I should not, and I will delete this post.

From what I've been told by those who aren't Mormon, Mormons believe the gods procreate pretty much the same way we do, and each human soul here on earth is an offspring of such procreation. If so, the inference would be that such a Mother God would exist.

 

I've seen nothing you need to delete. Though sometimes I wonder about your word usage.

 

It's really not a good idea to go to others of a particular belief to explain the beliefs not of that belief.  We don't know how the Gods reproduce. Whatever the method we are all the Children of God the Father, and through the Atonement of Christ can become Christ's Children by adoption.

 

Ps. As I have said before the LDS are not bound to just what is in the Bible. We have other Scriptures in our canon plus we believe in modern day Prophets, and Apostles.

Edited June 18, 2015 by thesometimesaint

[Sp0ckrates]

I was pointing out how if one assumes Jesus uses "in me", etc. consisntly throughout the passage, the interpretation that he is referring to a spiritual relationship of shared attributes such as knowledge, will, etc is reasonable.

Are you asking for a demonstration of the plurality of Gods?

Yes, that would be sweet!

[Sp0ckrates]

...So what is confusing you is the fact that all language is metaphor. All language is is symbols. The word "chair" IS NOT a thing you sit in. The word is not the thing.

It is as if words represent ideas, but they do so imperfectly. You quoted Plato (pretending to be Socrates) to make that point yourself.

Honestly you need to look at this. Words are confusing you, and you are tied to words and take them literally. That is why you appear to be debating, because you take one word and do not look at the idea, but look at five different meanings of the word.

That is the wrong path. See all words as metaphors and look to the concept beyond them and do not get hung up on the words.

Thanks for the advice. Edited June 18, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Sp0ckrates]

Read, ponder and study the Book of Mormon from cover to cover. If you follow though on this process with faith, humility and a sincere desire to know eternal truth you will receive spiritual impressions (revelation) all along as you continue to read. Then when you get to the last chapter follow through on "Moroni's challenge" wherein he promises the reader they can know by revelation from the Holy Ghost that the Book of Mormon is true. That will get the ball rolling.

Thank you for the recommendation. Are you saying revelation is more an emotion than information?

[Sp0ckrates]

Yes, that is what I believe about you. You do not listen and are plotting your move two steps ahead.

"If he says that Christ is IN the Godhead, I will say thus and so- if he says the Godhead is IN Christ, I will say this and that! Either way, I win!"

Frankly that is precisely how I see you. I hope I am mistaken.

If you read my replies to others in this discussion, I think you might find good reason to hope.

[Sp0ckrates]

I've seen nothing you need to delete. Though sometimes I wonder about your word usage.

It's really not a good idea to go to others of a particular belief to explain the beliefs not of that belief. We don't know how the Gods reproduce. Whatever the method we are all the Children of God the Father, and through the Atonement of Christ can become Christ's Children by adoption.

Ps. As I have said before the LDS are not bound to just what is in the Bible. We have other Scriptures in our canon plus we believe in modern day Prophets, and Apostles.

Yeah, I thought the story I heard sounded more than a bit exaggerated. It was presented in such a way as to suggest Mormonism was religious fiction. Edited June 18, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[mfbukowski]

1. Is the word Godhead used in the Bible the way Mormons use it?

2. If not, is the concept taught in the Bible the way Mormons understand it?

3. If not, is the word Godhead used in the Mormon scriptures the way Mormons use it.

4. If not, is the concept taught in the Mormon scriptures?

5. If not, why do Mormons believe it?

The title of this thread is "Wrapping my head around the Godhead"

 

Does that mean you believe the Godhead is in your head, or outside of it?

 

It must be one or the other, which is it?  Is it in the bible that the Godhead is in your head?

Edited June 18, 2015 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

Sp0ckrates, on 18 Jun 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

1. Is the word Godhead used in the Bible the way Mormons use it?
2. If not, is the concept taught in the Bible the way Mormons understand it?
3. If not, is the word Godhead used in the Mormon scriptures the way Mormons use it.
4. If not, is the concept taught in the Mormon scriptures?
5. If not, why do Mormons believe it?

Mormons understand the bible "insofar as it is translated correctly".

 

With that proviso the Godhead in the bible is exactly the way Mormons believe it is.   Of course there might be mistranslations.

 

This is central to your discussion, I suggest you do not avoid understanding this important point.

 

We believe the bible "as it was originally written".  Unfortunately no manuscripts survive of those texts.  Joseph began a "translation" by revelation of the bible, but never finished it.  He added whole chapters in some cases and reversed the meaning of many passages

 

Mormons believe what they believe because God has revealed to them personally that they should.

 

Without understanding this, you are going in circles.

[mfbukowski]

If you read my replies to others in this discussion, I think you might find good reason to hope.

In fact that is what concerns me.

[CV75]

OK. So if I consult only the Bible, I suppose I'd find only the second and third way described. Am I correct in thinking the first use of the word Godhead is found only in Mormon scriptures or other Mormon texts?

To me, the Acts 17 and Romans 1 references easily refer to all three meanings; superficially Colossians 2 reads to me as “divine nature,” but then we also have verse 10 which alludes to the organizational unit of which He is the head, so with some thought it could refer to all three meanings as well.

 

Whatever Paul meant, I think I got it (enough)! Especially when he describes how he communicates his ideas and what is “sufficient’ (2 Corinthians 3:1-6).

 

Why would you consult only the Bible?

[Sp0ckrates]

The title of this thread is "Wrapping my head around the Godhead"

Does that mean you believe the Godhead is in your head, or outside of it?

It must be one or the other, which is it? Is it in the bible that the Godhead is in your head?

I'll let you know as soon as I wrap my head around what you just said.

[ERayR]

I'll let you know as soon as I wrap my head around what you just said.

 

Does that mean you will be in his head or will he be in yours?

[Sp0ckrates]

To me, the Acts 17 and Romans 1 references easily refer to all three meanings;

Please explain how one of them teaches the first meaning (three gods in one Godhead).

superficially Colossians 2 reads to me as “divine nature,” but then we also have verse 10 which alludes to the organizational unit of which He is the head, so with some thought it could refer to all three meanings as well.

But he is not the head of the Father, so how can verse 10 be speaking of his relationship with the Father? Isn't the Father the head of the Godhead? I'm thinking verse 10 is speaking of his relationship with us, not with the Father and Holy Ghost. I mean, verses 11 and following seem to make that clear to me.

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.(Colossians 2)

Whatever Paul meant, I think I got it (enough)! Especially when he describes how he communicates his ideas and what is “sufficient’ (2 Corinthians 3:1-6).

You mean these verses?

3 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?

2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:

3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:

5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

(2 Corinthians 3)

Yes, I can see the Father, Son and Holy Ghost all working together, there. I'm not sure how clear it is that they are separate gods. I'm beginning to think the idea is explicitly taught only in extrabiblical scriptures.

Why would you consult only the Bible?

I won't. But I will start there. It is what I know and trust. The Book of Mormon and other extrabiblical scriptures are unknowns to me. I suppose it would take time and experience to build trust in them. Edited June 18, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Sp0ckrates]

Does that mean you will be in his head or will he be in yours?

I'll let you know as soon as I wrap my head around what you said. But I suspect my head will first explode!

[Calm]

Let me know if I'm saying something I should not, and I will delete this post.

From what I've been told by those who aren't Mormon, Mormons believe the gods procreate pretty much the same way we do, and each human soul here on earth is an offspring of such procreation. If so, the inference would be that such a Mother God would exist.

You are being very delicate, thank you. But we are pretty tough skin here or should be so I will just come out and say that one of the common terms for it by antimormons is "celestial sex"...but since we don't believe the physical body is disgusting, that it was created by God for us to be a blessing and a joy, even though there is no revelation IMO that indicates the form of procreation, if it turns out to be that, then great. . The hardships attached to pregnancy will be removed and we will have perfect control over our bodies, so there would be no need for pregnancy to last nine months and be such a toll on the mother's body. Might be able to achieve 'overnight' whatever that means in eternity. So when we get mocked for believing in creating this ways as gods, I just smile and say "you have a problem with sex?".

Even in mortality there are women who are hardly aware of labour and the baby just pops out. One friend was like this, her husband delivered most of her kids because the midwife wouldn't get there in time or there was never time to get to the hospital. One baby was caught with him doing a slider into the bathroom due to it falling out of her as she got out of the bathtub she had just gotten into soak per her midwife's recommendation. She came to see my delivery to see the "real" thing, but I had an epidural by then so she was ticked off she missed it.

I personally don't think that is how spirits are created as I think the father will be more involved than just providing half of the blueprints for the body, but since it hasn't been ruled out by revelation it is possible. And I don't think it's clear that we will have additional physical children, except perhaps during the millennium as women who have no children and desire them will have the chance then according to some teachings, but that would be preJudgment so perhaps not as gods even if resurrected. Lots of speculation in this area. You can ignore it, I am merely sharing this to demonstrate the joy most LDS see in the continuation of our families, not only those we have here.

Got to go be Grandma....

[Calm]

Thank you for the recommendation. Are you saying revelation is more an emotion than information?

Just in case I miss this later, if no one posts it remind me to post how the Spirit communicates true enlightenment (info) as well as plurality.

[Storm Rider]

Forgive me for being unclear. I'm not saying there is none, but I am wondering if there is some.

I'm investigating the scriptural evidence for the Mormon doctrine that there are three gods in one Godhead. I'm wondering:

1. Is the word Godhead used in the Bible the way Mormons use it?

2. If not, is the concept taught in the Bible the way Mormons understand it?

3. If not, is the word Godhead used in the Mormon scriptures the way Mormons use it.

4. If not, is the concept taught in the Mormon scriptures?

5. If not, why do Mormons believe it?

Agreed. it's not the word that matters. It's the meaning of the word.

Yeah. Maybe the evidence I'm asking for doesn't exist. Is it something you believe by faith, apart from any biblical or other scriptural evidence?

 

Back to basics, do you think the Bible offers evidence of three divine beings:  Father, Son, and Holy Ghost?  Like Stephen looking into the heavens and seeing Jesus on the right hand of the Father; Jesus saying he would send the second comforter, etc.  

 

Does the Bible not support the reality of any of these individual beings we commonly identify as God?

[CV75]

Please explain how one of them teaches the first meaning (three gods in one Godhead).

But he is not the head of the Father, so how can verse 10 be speaking of his relationship with the Father? Isn't the Father the head of the Godhead? I'm thinking verse 10 is speaking of his relationship with us, not with the Father and Holy Ghost. I mean, verses 11 and following seem to make that clear to me.

 

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.(Colossians 2)

 

You mean these verses?

3 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?

2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:

3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:

5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

(2 Corinthians 3)

Yes, I can see the Father, Son and Holy Ghost all working together, there. I'm not sure how clear it is that they are separate gods. I'm beginning to think the idea is explicitly taught only in extrabiblical scriptures.

I won't. But I will start there. It is what I know and trust. The Book of Mormon and other extrabiblical scriptures are unknowns to me. I suppose it would take time and experience to build trust in them.

 

You asked about the use of the word “Godhead” in those passages, not its definition. I’m not sure where you’d go to find Paul’s teaching of the meaning – an actual definition -- of the word. The relationship between the Father, Son and Holy Ghost described in various passages of the Bible (see the footnote I provided earlier) does, for me at least, support any of the three definitions discussed in this thread.

 

I’m not sure what you mean by “separate gods” in relation to anything I’ve posted, but I am a god too (John 10:34; Psalms 82:6), for all that’s worth! But I don’t know how “separate” I am, since I am totally dependent on God. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are separate Beings or separate Persons, but I’m not familiar with what it means for Them to be separate Gods (without each Other, They wouldn’t be Who They are).

 

How is your reading of the Book of Mormon coming along?