Wrapping My Head Around The Godhead

[Sp0ckrates]

That those Sp0ckrates is speaking about (Roman Catholics and Protestants) as considering Mormons non-Christian are themselves participating in very ancient patterns of worship and faith, which precede Christianity by thousands of years, and are arguably pagan. This is particularly dangerous for mainstream, creedal Christianity due to their failure to employ or accept continuing revelation, along with their failure to seek direct authority from God. Thus, their apostate condition.

For Mormons this ancient pattern of faith is understandable, and is no threat, since it didn't begin with the birth of Jesus, but began already in the Garden of Eden. The ancient world is littered with the remnants of true religion and true faith.

Interesting.

[Sp0ckrates]

He has faith that goodness, justice and love will always ultimately defeat wickedness injustice and hate.

The reason I ask is it seems Jesus appears to have faith in the Father, for he prays:

Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

(Luke 22:42)

So I wonder if your opinion is that God the Father also has a God to whom he prays. Edited June 20, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Bobbieaware]

The reason I ask is it seems Jesus appears to have faith in the Father, for he prays:

Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

(Luke 22:42)

So I wonder if your opinion is that God the Father also has a God to whom he prays.

Like Paul said on two occasions,.there are many mysteries (strong meat) pertaining to the gospel that are not revealed, but wifi be revealed at a later time when the saints are ready to receive and digest them. Since the answer you're seeking is not yet revealed to man, I have no present opinion to offer on the matter. It's enough for me to know he has faith, otherwise he wouldn't be able to accomplish anything.

[CV75]

I have not fully considered or rejected any source. Though I have read the works of early ancient Christians, many Protestants, some Jehovah's Witnesses, most of the Qu'ran, parts of the Mormon scriptures, and quotes of Ghandi, Buddah, Confucius, Muhammad, Mother Teresa, C.S. Lewis, Joseph Smith and many others. Please tell me what sources you have considered.

Oh my, they are too numerous to mention—everything I have ever been exposed to, experienced, read, heard, done, etc. For the purposes of this thread of course I’ve settled on the Book of Mormon for the reasons I mentioned.

 

I don't mind nitpicking, but I'm not sure I understand. You said this:

As an aside, I think the Oneness Pentecostal and Jehovah’s Witness concepts of God’s state of being that you offered as examples are neither Trinitarian nor triadic, but additional concepts distinct from those.

 

I responded by saying I agree with you about JWs and OPs. How did I misunderstand you?

I don't know how you misunderstood me, except for the observation I already made in my demonstration. Just go back further in the exchange and you will see that my initial response was not meant to be about anything other than Trinity and Triad, yet you responded as if it was, and continued to respond in the same vein even after i clarified what i meant.

 

Are you asking for examples of specific verses I find to be clear? Or are you asking which general concepts I believe are clearly taught?

Either; whichever suits your purposes, but why not answer both ways?

 

Thanks for sharing your experience. By saying you "needed something more" than the Bible, what do you mean, exactly? Do you mean you felt the Bible had the truth and nothing but the truth, but it didn't have the whole truth? Or do you mean you had needs unmet by reading the Bible? Or did you have questions unanswered by the Bible? Or something else?

As I wrote, “My conclusion that I needed “something more” than scripture [bible] wasn’t based on any dissatisfaction I had with scripture…” I had a sense or intuition that God also works in ways other than the written word so I pursued that avenue. You say you sought and received the Holy Spirit’s guidance based on the Bible’s ambiguity, and such an experience is consistent with how I understand the Holy Spirit to work with us. But I came to a similar conclusion under different guidance from God and without attributing the reason for needing “something more” to the Bible’s ambiguity.

 

So why limit me to only one option by telling me I must read the Book of Mormon from cover to cover?

LOL—I didn’t tell you that you must read the volume cover to cover, I invited you to do so. I have no power to limit you at all. I simply haven’t a favorite book or any other recommendation to give you. It's that good!

Edited June 20, 2015 by CV75

[ERayR]

Yes, that makes sense and applies to the gods of the Mormon Triad. So Trinitarians would be wrong to say Colossians 2:9 contradicts Mormon doctrine, I think. Thanks for making that clearer to me.

However, I suppose a non-Mormon might say the power of the one and only God is in the three persons of the Trinity. So Paul's words in the verse might be interpreted to be either Trinitarian or Triadian. That means the verse is too ambiguous to be of any further help to me. It shows either belief might be the truth.

Do you, perhaps know of a passage in the Mormon scriptures that show, without a doubt God is a Triad and not a Trinity?

 

If you are looking for some bit of empirical evidence that is going to prove one over the other you are not going to find it.  You are going to have to seek a spiritual confirmation.

[Sp0ckrates]

Like Paul said on two occasions,.there are many mysteries (strong meat) pertaining to the gospel that are not revealed, but wifi be revealed at a later time when the saints are ready to receive and digest them. Since the answer you're seeking is not yet revealed to man, I have no present opinion to offer on the matter. It's enough for me to know he has faith, otherwise he wouldn't be able to accomplish anything.

There is this idea in other Christian circles that the God we worship created not just our solar system, but also the universe. Is this an idea thought false by Mormonism, or is it seen as a possibility not yet tevealed?

[thesometimesaint]

In LDS Scripture we have God as creating worlds without number, and creating everything seen and unseen. So while they don't specifically say God created the universe, it would be a logical conclusion.

[Calm]

A good portion of the Book of Mormon is an abridgement written by one author with some definite messages he wants to get across. Reading at least those sections in order may help convey the messages better.

There is also historical development that adds context to the discussion imo for the entire book, save for Ether and some chapters that are from Isaiah and a few purely theological information such as the sacrament process.

Edited June 20, 2015 by calmoriah

[Bobbieaware]

There is this idea in other Christian circles that the God we worship created not just our solar system, but also the universe. Is this an idea thought false by Mormonism, or is it seen as a possibility not yet tevealed?

We believe God created the universe, not jut our solar system.

Thought you would be interested in reading the following LDS statements of faith:

Faith as Exercised by God

What is Faith?

Joseph Smith

A. . . . faith is . . . the principle of action in all intelligent beings. (Lectures on Faith, 1:9)

B. But faith is not only the principle of action, but of power also, in all intelligent beings, whether in heaven or on earth. (Lectures on Faith, 1:13-14)

J. Reuben Clark, Jr.

As I think about faith, this principle of power, I am obliged to believe that it is an intelligent force. Of what kind I do not know. But it is superior to and overrules all other forces of which we know. It is the principle, the force, by which the dead are restored to life. (Conference Report, April 1960)

Bruce R. McConkie

But faith in its true signification is more than the moving cause pursuant to which men and angels act. It is also a principle of power. Faith is power. And where there is power, there is faith; and where there is no power, there is no faith. (A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, p.164)

Faith, As Exercised By God

Joseph Smith

A. But faith is not only the principle of action, but of power also, in all intelligent beings, whether in heaven or on earth. Thus says the author of the epistle to the Hebrews, 11:3 --

"Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God; so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

By this we understand that the principle of power which existed in the bosom of God, by which the worlds were framed, was faith; and that it is by reason of this principle of power existing in the Deity, that all created things exist; so that all things in heaven, on earth, or under the earth exist by reason of faith as it existed in Him.

Had it not been for the principle of faith the worlds would never have been framed neither would man have been formed of the dust. It is the principle by which Jehovah works, and through which he exercises power over all temporal as well as eternal things. Take this principle or attribute -- for it is an attribute -- from the Deity, and he would cease to exist. (Joseph Smith, Lectures on Faith, 1:13-16)

B. Faith, then, is the first great governing principle which has power, dominion, and authority over all things; by it they exist, by it they are upheld, by it they are changed, or by it they remain, agreeable to the will of God. Without it there is no power, and without power there could be no creation nor existence! (Joseph Smith, Lectures on Faith, 1:24)

C. We here observe that God is the only supreme governor and independent being in whom all fullness and perfection dwell; who is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient; without beginning of days or end of life; and that in him every good gift and every good principle dwell; and that he is the Father of lights; in him the principle of faith dwells independently, and he is the object in whom the faith of all other rational and accountable beings center for life and salvation. (Joseph Smith, Lectures on Faith, 2:2)

Bruce R. McConkie

God is God because faith dwells in him independently; and faith is power, the very power of God himself. (A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, p.163)

God the Father, in the ultimate and final sense, is the Creator of all things. He is the creator of spirit men, of mortal men, and of immortal men. He created life and death and immortality and eternal life. He made the laws whereby spirit men gain mortality, and mortal men gain immortality, and faithful men gain eternal life. The power he uses in these and in all things is faith. Faith is power, and the power of God is the faith of God. (A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, p.168)

Godhood - Acquiring Independent Faith

Bruce R. McConkie

God the Father is an eternal being. The very name of the kind of life he lives is eternal life, and thus eternal life consists in living and being as he is. In other words, eternal life is to gain the power of God, which power is faith, and thus to be able to do what he does and to live as he lives. And the great and eternal plan of salvation that he has ordained and established consists of those laws, ordinances, and powers whereby faith is acquired and perfected until it is possessed in the same degree and to the same extent that it exists in Deity. Faith will thus dwell independently in every person who gains eternal life. (A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, p.169)

Edited June 20, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Sp0ckrates]

Oh my, they are too numerous to mention—everything I have ever been exposed to, experienced, read, heard, done, etc. For the purposes of this thread of course I’ve settled on the Book of Mormon for the reasons I mentioned.

I don't know how you misunderstood me, except for the observation I already made in my demonstration. Just go back further in the exchange and you will see that my initial response was not meant to be about anything other than Trinity and Triad, yet you responded as if it was, and continued to respond in the same vein even after i clarified what i meant.

Sorry for misunderstanding.

Either; whichever suits your purposes, but why not answer both ways?

My purpos at the moment is to answer your questions. Maybe if you tell me why you aske the question I'll have a better idea how to answer.

As I wrote, “My conclusion that I needed “something more” than scripture [bible] wasn’t based on any dissatisfaction I had with scripture…” I had a sense or intuition that God also works in ways other than the written word so I pursued that avenue. You say you sought and received the Holy Spirit’s guidance based on the Bible’s ambiguity, and such an experience is consistent with how I understand the Holy Spirit to work with us. But I came to a similar conclusion under different guidance from God and without attributing the reason for needing “something more” to the Bible’s ambiguity.

Thanks.

LOL—I didn’t tell you that you must read the volume cover to cover, I invited you to do so. I have no power to limit you at all. I simply haven’t a favorite book or any other recommendation to give you. It's that good!

OK. Thanks for the invitation. I might be able to read the entire book when I have time.

[Sp0ckrates]

If you are looking for some bit of empirical evidence that is going to prove one over the other you are not going to find it. You are going to have to seek a spiritual confirmation.

I'm looking for scriptural evidence rather than empiracle evidence.

[Sp0ckrates]

In LDS Scripture we have God as creating worlds without number, and creating everything seen and unseen. So while they don't specifically say God created the universe, it would be a logical conclusion.

Yes, that would be a logical inference. I suppose, then such a God would be the God of all gods.

[Sp0ckrates]

A good portion of the Book of Mormon is an abridgement written by one author with some definite messages he wants to get across. Reading at least those sections in order may help convey the messages better.

There is also historical development that adds context to the discussion imo for the entire book, save for Ether and some chapters that are from Isaiah and a few purely theological information such as the sacrament process.

If you think of the names of those sections, please let me know.

[Flyonthewall]

Yes, that would be a logical inference. I suppose, then such a God would be the God of all gods.

As the scriptures do say, the Most High God.

[Sp0ckrates]

We believe God created the universe, not jut our solar system.

Thought you would be interested in reading the following LDS statements of faith:

Faith as Exercised by God

What is Faith?

Joseph Smith

A. . . . faith is . . . the principle of action in all intelligent beings. (Lectures on Faith, 1:9)

B. But faith is not only the principle of action, but of power also, in all intelligent beings, whether in heaven or on earth. (Lectures on Faith, 1:13-14)

J. Reuben Clark, Jr.

As I think about faith, this principle of power, I am obliged to believe that it is an intelligent force. Of what kind I do not know. But it is superior to and overrules all other forces of which we know. It is the principle, the force, by which the dead are restored to life. (Conference Report, April 1960)

Bruce R. McConkie

But faith in its true signification is more than the moving cause pursuant to which men and angels act. It is also a principle of power. Faith is power. And where there is power, there is faith; and where there is no power, there is no faith. (A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, p.164)

Faith, As Exercised By God

Joseph Smith

A. But faith is not only the principle of action, but of power also, in all intelligent beings, whether in heaven or on earth. Thus says the author of the epistle to the Hebrews, 11:3 --

"Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God; so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

I find it fascinating how I've never seen Hebrews 11:3 as ambiguous till now. The way it has always been taught is this:

1. "Through faith we understand..."

But the way you have been taught is this:

2. "Through faith...the worlds were framed..."

With understanding (1) we have the faith, and faith is a belief in the truth that God created the worlds. With understanding (2) God has the faith, and faith is the power by which God created the worlds.

By this we understand that the principle of power which existed in the bosom of God, by which the worlds were framed, was faith; and that it is by reason of this principle of power existing in the Deity, that all created things exist; so that all things in heaven, on earth, or under the earth exist by reason of faith as it existed in Him.

Had it not been for the principle of faith the worlds would never have been framed neither would man have been formed of the dust. It is the principle by which Jehovah works, and through which he exercises power over all temporal as well as eternal things. Take this principle or attribute -- for it is an attribute -- from the Deity, and he would cease to exist. (Joseph Smith, Lectures on Faith, 1:13-16)

B. Faith, then, is the first great governing principle which has power, dominion, and authority over all things; by it they exist, by it they are upheld, by it they are changed, or by it they remain, agreeable to the will of God. Without it there is no power, and without power there could be no creation nor existence! (Joseph Smith, Lectures on Faith, 1:24)

C. We here observe that God is the only supreme governor and independent being in whom all fullness and perfection dwell; who is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient; without beginning of days or end of life; and that in him every good gift and every good principle dwell; and that he is the Father of lights; in him the principle of faith dwells independently, and he is the object in whom the faith of all other rational and accountable beings center for life and salvation. (Joseph Smith, Lectures on Faith, 2:2)

Bruce R. McConkie

God is God because faith dwells in him independently; and faith is power, the very power of God himself. (A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, p.163)

God the Father, in the ultimate and final sense, is the Creator of all things. He is the creator of spirit men, of mortal men, and of immortal men. He created life and death and immortality and eternal life. He made the laws whereby spirit men gain mortality, and mortal men gain immortality, and faithful men gain eternal life. The power he uses in these and in all things is faith. Faith is power, and the power of God is the faith of God. (A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, p.168)

Godhood - Acquiring Independent Faith

Bruce R. McConkie

God the Father is an eternal being. The very name of the kind of life he lives is eternal life, and thus eternal life consists in living and being as he is. In other words, eternal life is to gain the power of God, which power is faith, and thus to be able to do what he does and to live as he lives. And the great and eternal plan of salvation that he has ordained and established consists of those laws, ordinances, and powers whereby faith is acquired and perfected until it is possessed in the same degree and to the same extent that it exists in Deity. Faith will thus dwell independently in every person who gains eternal life. (A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, p.169)

Would you say I'm correct in thinking these wise men are telling us omnipotence is faith?

Edited June 20, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Sp0ckrates]

As the scriptures do say, the Most High God.

Then I suppose all other gods, be they two in number or many millions or more too numerous to count, must pray to and have faith in this Most High God. Do you suppose?

[Flyonthewall]

Then I suppose all other gods, be they two in number or many millions or more too numerous to count, must pray to and have faith in this Most High God. Do you suppose?

We know Jesus prayed to the Father and put His faith in Him while on earth.

We know very little about any others(including the Holy Spirit) and their relationship to the Father other than the Father is the Supreme Ruler over all. Aside from Jesus and the Holy Spirit, we only know of possibilities.

At some point faith becomes knowledge, so does Jesus still exercise faith in the Father rather than have perfect knowledge? I couldn't say.

[ERayR]

I'm looking for scriptural evidence rather than empiracle evidence.

 

There are scriptural evidences but the problem is they are subject to interpretation so we get back to whose interpretation and a personal spiritual witness.

[Sp0ckrates]

We know Jesus prayed to the Father and put His faith in Him while on earth.

We know very little about any others(including the Holy Spirit) and their relationship to the Father other than the Father is the Supreme Ruler over all. Aside from Jesus and the Holy Spirit, we only know of possibilities.

At some point faith becomes knowledge, so does Jesus still exercise faith in the Father rather than have perfect knowledge? I couldn't say.

Understood.

[Sp0ckrates]

There are scriptural evidences but the problem is they are subject to interpretation so we get back to whose interpretation and a personal spiritual witness.

Even in the Mormon scriptures?

[mikegriffith1]

What is the Godhead?

I'm thoughtfully considering what Mormons believe about the Godhead. I searched the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrine and Covenants for the word and found only this:

 

Introduction

In the revelations, the doctrines of the gospel are set forth with explanations about such fundamental matters as the nature of the Godhead, the origin of man, the reality of Satan, the purpose of mortality, the necessity for obedience, the need for ...

The Bible had this to say:

Colossians 2:9

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Will someone please help me understand what the Godhead is?

 

 

It's the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. It's also called the Trinity or the Holy Trinity. It's three divine beings who are separate and distinct but who act in complete harmony. To speak with one is to speak with the other, i.e., you will get the same answer, the same truth, though each being may use different wording.

[Sp0ckrates]

It's the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. It's also called the Trinity or the Holy Trinity. It's three divine beings who are separate and distinct but who act in complete harmony. To speak with one is to speak with the other, i.e., you will get the same answer, the same truth, though each being may use different wording.

Mike: Are you not describing a Triad, rather than a Trinity? From what I understand, the concept of Trinity describes God as one being (essence or nature) in three persons.

[Bobbieaware]

Mike: Are you not describing a Triad, rather than a Trinity? From what I understand, the concept of Trinity describes God as one being (essence or nature) in three persons.

Trinitarians readily admit just how the three separate personages of the Godhead are one God and what the "substance" is that unifies the three personages are a profound mystery. So until the Trinitarians are able to demystify the Trinity and define the terms of what it is they say they believe, how can the Latter-day Saints and the Trinitarians have a meaningful dialogue?

[thesometimesaint]

Every person ever born on this earth is a God, and is Divine, or at least has the potential to become such. The only God which we pray to is God the

Father. God the Father, together with God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost form the Godhead. They are the only Gods with which we have anything to do with.

[Sp0ckrates]

Trinitarians readily admit just how the three separate personages of the Godhead are one God and what the "substance" is that unifies the three personages are a profound mystery. So until the Trinitarians are able to demystify the Trinity and define the terms of what it is they say they believe, how can the Latter-day Saints and the Trinitarians have a meaningful dialogue?

Yes, but it would have to be a logical mystery for me to believe it. If the doctrine of the Trinity teaches God is one being and not one being, it would be illogical, irrational and not based on sound reason.

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

(Isaiah 1:18)

God reasons with us, he says. To ask I believe something illogical is the opposite of reasoning, I think. It is not something God would require of me. If the Trinity is indeed illogical, it's not from God, I believe. Edited June 21, 2015 by Sp0ckrates