Wrapping My Head Around The Godhead

[Robert F. Smith]

Every person ever born on this earth is a God, and is Divine, or at least has the potential to become such. The only God which we pray to is God the

Father. God the Father, together with God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost form the Godhead. They are the only Gods with which we have anything to do with.

Yes.  Brigham Young stated in April of 1852, in a sermon in Salt Lake City, that, of the various deities which exist, one "is our father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do" (Journal of Discourses, 1:50; cf. Paul in I Cor 8:5-6).

 

In his FARMS Preliminary Report N-APO, "Apocryphal Writings," p. 13, Hugh Nibley interprets the meaning underlying many sorts of this class of writing, and notes that

 

All the worlds are organized in a common pattern, . . in all the worlds you will find God alone rules but with a presidency of three and a council of twelve.  This is the rule of all worlds.  The repetitions are infinite in number and scope . . . .  As a Yeu becomes a Father, the Father then appoints new Yeus (Jehovahs) for new worlds who in turn become Fathers, etc. (cf. First Jeu 48:8; 50:1-3; 97:25-28; Pistis Sophia I, 91, 94; III, 285, 319, 329-330; IV, 355:15,23, 370:10,19,24).

[Sp0ckrates]

Every person ever born on this earth is a God, and is Divine, or at least has the potential to become such. The only God which we pray to is God the

Father. God the Father, together with God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost form the Godhead. They are the only Gods with which we have anything to do with.

And by Godhead, I believe you mean the unified group to which the three gods belong. What I still wonder is what the source of that belief is. If it is not a clear teaching of the Bible, is it a clear teaching of the three Mormon scriptures? If it is not a clear teaching of the Mormon scriptures, is it an extra-scriptural teaching of Mormon prophets?

[thesometimesaint]

And by Godhead, I believe you mean the unified group to which the three gods belong. What I still wonder is what the source of that belief is. If it is not a clear teaching of the Bible, is it a clear teaching of the three Mormon scriptures? If it is not a clear teaching of the Mormon scriptures, is it an extra-scriptural teaching of Mormon prophets?

 

Right out of the Bible. 

[Sp0ckrates]

Right out of the Bible.

What biblical passage? (Don't worry if you don't know chapter and verse. Just say a few words. I should be able to find it.)

[thesometimesaint]

God the Father is of course a God in Abrahamic religions.

God the Son is of course a God in Christianity.

God the Holy Ghost is of course a God in Christianity.

[Sp0ckrates]

God the Father is of course a God in Abrahamic religions.

God the Son is of course a God in Christianity.

God the Holy Ghost is of course a God in Christianity.

Thanks for answering my question Thesometimesaint. Yes, there are biblical passages that say God is the Father, God is the Son and God is the Holy Ghost. I guess for me the doubt that the Godhead is a Triad comes in when I consider the biblical passages that say there is only one true God.

What do you think about those passages? Do you think they do not say there is only one true God? Or do you think they do say there is only one true God, but they are mistaken or mistranslated? Or are you unaware of any such passages?

Edited June 21, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Bobbieaware]

Thanks for answering my question Thesometimesaint. Yes, there are biblical passages that say God is the Father, God is the Son and God is the Holy Ghost. I guess for me the doubt that the Godhead is a Triad comes in when I consider the biblical passages that say there is only one true God.

What do you think about those passages? Do you think they do not say there is only one true God? Or do you think they do say there is only one true God, but they are mistaken or mistranslated? Or are you unaware of any such passages?

The Book of Mormon is replete with such scriptures. If you would read the Book of Mormon, as I suggested you do, you would know this. Here's one example:

21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen. (2 Nephi 31)

The main difference between the LDS and the Trinitarian view of the oneness of the three personages of the Godhead is that the Latter-day Saints have demystified the nature of that unity, while the Trinitarians rejoice in the belief that the oneness of the Godhead is a incomprehensible mystery.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Sp0ckrates]

The Book of Mormon is replete with such scriptures. If you would read the Book of Mormon, as I suggested you do, you would know this. Here's one example:

21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen. (2 Nephi 31)

The main difference between the LDS and the Trinitarian view of the oneness of the three personages of the Godhead is that the Latter-day Saints have demystified the nature of that unity, while the Trinitarians rejoice in the belief that the oneness of the Godhead is a incomprehensible mystery.

Thanks for your encouragement to continue to read the Book of Mormon, Bobbieaware. As you already know, I have read Alma, and I will continue to read other books as well.

I believe a non-Triadian may read 2 Nephi 31:21 and believe there is only one true God in three persons. A non-Trinitarian like yourself may of course read the same and believe there are three gods who are one in thought, word and deed, but nonetheless three different gods.

So like some biblical passages, 2 Nephi 31:21 seems to me to also not be immune to ambiguity. But perhaps there are other Book of Mormon texts that are unambiguous?

Edited June 21, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[CV75]

Sorry for misunderstanding.

My purpos at the moment is to answer your questions. Maybe if you tell me why you aske the question I'll have a better idea how to answer.

Thanks.

OK. Thanks for the invitation. I might be able to read the entire book when I have time.

I hope you only used the word “sorry” colloquially! But do you see in your responses the point I was trying to demonstrate?

 

My original question was, “Which parts of the Bible do you find to be unambiguous…?” I asked it because you said that “much of the Bible is too ambiguous…” and laid out a number of issues you are dealing with as a result. This indicates that you hold that some part of the Bible is not ambiguous, and I am asking which.

 

I also asked, “How are you going about determining which [biblical] teaching “has mostly the truth?” in light of your experience with the Holy Spirit (aside from questions designed to expose the contradictions in other peoples’ stated understanding or assumptions).

 

Have you read anything thus far in the Book of Mormon that appears unambiguous to you as well?

Edited June 21, 2015 by CV75

[CV75]

ooops!

Edited June 21, 2015 by CV75

[Bobbieaware]

Thanks for your encouragement to continue to read the Book of Mormon, Bobbieaware. As you already know, I have read Alma, and I will continue to read other books as well.

I believe a non-Triadian may read 2 Nephi 31:21 and believe there is only one true God in three persons. A non-Trinitarian like yourself may of course read the same and believe there are three gods who are one in thought, word and deed, but nonetheless three different gods.

So like some biblical passages, 2 Nephi 31:21 seems to me to also not be immune to ambiguity. But perhaps there are other Book of Mormon texts that are unambiguous?

Just like the Bible, the Book of Mormon has many verses that are, as you say, unambiguous on the subject. Read all of 3 Nephi, beginning at chapter 11, and see for yourself.

Based upon the Trinitarian understanding of the verses of scripture which they say speak of the mystical oneness of the three separate personages of the Godhead, why should I not conclude the following words of the Savior plainly indicate there will eventually be more than three personages in that Godhead? Are not the words the Savior uses to show the Father and the Son are one God precisely the same words he uses to describe the unity that the glorified sons of God will have with the Son and the Father?

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, THAT THEY ALSO MAY BE ONE IN US: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I IN THEM, AND THOU IN ME THAT THEY. MAY BE MADE PERFECT IN ONE; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. (John 17)

Edited June 21, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Sp0ckrates]

ooops!

Yeah, I hate that double-post thing. Their web developer really ought to add a script to disable the Add Reply button on the first click or tap. It's really not too difficult to do.

[Sp0ckrates]

I hope you only used the word “sorry” colloquially! But do you see in your responses the point I was trying to demonstrate?

My original question was, “Which parts of the Bible do you find to be unambiguous…?” I asked it because you said that “much of the Bible is too ambiguous…” and laid out a number of issues you are dealing with as a result. This indicates that you hold that some part of the Bible is not ambiguous, and I am asking which.

I also asked, “How are you going about determining which [biblical] teaching “has mostly the truth?” in light of your experience with the Holy Spirit (aside from questions designed to expose the contradictions in other peoples’ stated understanding or assumptions).

Have you read anything thus far in the Book of Mormon that appears unambiguous to you as well?

OK, thanks for telling me why you ask the question. Here are what appear to me to be obviously unambiguous passages of the Bible:

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

(Isaiah 1:18)

Since God reasons with us, so he does not expect us to believe anything illogical.

15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

(1 Corinthians 15)

Jesus Christ died and rose from the dead the third day after his death.

“This is what the Lord says—

Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty:

I am the first and I am the last;

apart from me there is no God.

7 Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it.

Let him declare and lay out before me

what has happened since I established my ancient people,

and what is yet to come—

yes, let them foretell what will come.

8 Do not tremble, do not be afraid.

Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago?

You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me?

No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.”

(Isaiah 44)

I guess I'm confused about this one. It appears to unambiguously say apart from the Lord Almighty, there is no other God. What do you think it says? Edited June 21, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Sp0ckrates]

Just like the Bible, the Book of Mormon has many verses that are, as you say, unambiguous on the subject. Read all of 3 Nephi, beginning at chapter 11, and see for yourself.

I read all of 3 Nephi 11, but did not find the unambiguous verses you mentioned. Please let me know what verses you mean.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/3-ne/11?lang=eng

Based upon the Trinitarian understanding of the verses of scripture which they say speak of the mystical oneness of the three separate personages of the Godhead, why should I not conclude the following words of the Savior plainly indicate there will eventually be more than three personages in that Godhead? Are not the words the Savior uses to show the Father and the Son are one God precisely the same words he uses to describe the unity that the glorified sons of God will have with the Son and the Father?

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, THAT THEY ALSO MAY BE ONE IN US: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I IN THEM, AND THOU IN ME THAT THEY. MAY BE MADE PERFECT IN ONE; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. (John 17)

Yes, I can see how verses 21 and 23 unambiguously say the three persons of the Godhead are, and you and me should be, one in thought, word and deed.

But I do not see anything in John 17 that says there is not only one true God. Earlier in the same chapter, however Jesus prayed this:

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

(John 17:3)

If Jesus, the Holy Ghost and the Father are each true Gods, then I'm confused. Why does he say there is only one true God? Edited June 21, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Sp0ckrates]

OK, so I don't know what is wrong with my memory, but John 17:3 and Isaiah 44:8 are two verses I used to know. After reading them, now, I see that they appear to disagree with Mormon teaching about the Godhead.

Someone help me out: To become a Mormon will I have to believe these two scriptures are inaccurate or incorrectly translated?

[Bobbieaware]

I read all of 3 Nephi 11, but did not find the unambiguous verses you mentioned. Please let me know what verses you mean.https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/3-ne/11?lang=engYes, I can see how verses 21 and 23 unambiguously say the three persons of the Godhead are, and you and me should be, one in thought, word and deed.

But I do not see anything in John 17 that says there is not only one true God. Earlier in the same chapter, however I found Jesus prayed this:

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

(John 17:3)

If Jesus, the Holy Ghost and the Father are each true Gods, then I'm confused. Why does he say there is only one true God?

I said you should read all of the book of 3 Nephi STARTING at chapter 11.

In the verses I quoted, the Savior said men could become one with The Father and the Son, in the same way Christ is one with the Father. If the Savior can be taken at the plain meaning his word, such a promise is a very big deal. These verses clearly demonstrate the Father and the Son can be one God (I,e, one presiding divine presidency) but still not be the same being. One being cannot have three separate wills: When in Gethsemane Christ said, "Father, let this cup pass from me," it most assuredly points to the fact that the Father and the Son are not the same being. Just because three individual beings have the same nature doesn't mean they are the same being anymore than my shared fallen nature with the rest of humanity means we are all the same being.

[Bobbieaware]

OK, so I don't know what is wrong with my memory, but John 17:3 and Isaiah 44:8 are two verses I used to know. After reading them, now, I see that they appear to disagree with Mormon teaching about the Godhead.

Someone help me out: To become a Mormon will I have to believe these two scriptures are inaccurate or incorrectly translated?

In Mormonism, one God doesn't mean one being anymore than in Trinitarianism it means they are one person. Just because beings have the same nature doesn't mean they are the same being. But in the case of God, having the same nature can mean three separate individuals can act as a unified presidency. In Mormonism, the substance that unifies the three individuals who compose the Godhead is the uncreated Spirit of divine intelligence and eternal power. Just because the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost are all filled to eternal fullness with the uncreated Spirit of divine intelligence and eternal power does not mean they are the same being anymore than it means they are all the same person.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Robert F. Smith]

...........................................................................................

“This is what the Lord says—

Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty:

I am the first and I am the last;

apart from me there is no God.

7 Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it.

Let him declare and lay out before me

what has happened since I established my ancient people,

and what is yet to come—

yes, let them foretell what will come.

8 Do not tremble, do not be afraid.

Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago?

You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me?

No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.”

(Isaiah 44)

 

I guess I'm confused about this one. It appears to unambiguously say apart from the Lord Almighty, there is no other God. What do you think it says?

 

Well, the Jews don't consider Christians to be monotheists, so you might want to seek conversion to Judaism.  An excellent religion, to be sure.

 

On the other hand, there are plenty of biblical texts which indicate plural gods, beginning with Elohim ("Gods") in Genesis 1:1, which becomes more explicit in Gen 1:26 "And Elohim said, 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness'," suggesting that  multiple gods are involved -- or least a heavenly host of some sort (which we can read about elsewhere, as at Gen 18:1-33, Joshua 5:13-15, Job 38:7, Ps 82:1-8, John 10:34-38, etc.).  In any case, the very same words are applied to the human progeny of Adam and Eve in Gen 5:1-3 (likeness, image).  In the light of such passages, the LDS notion of a great human family of the genus and species of God takes on new meaning.  It is clearly best to take the entire Bible into consideration, rather than isolated proof texts.

 

We also know, archeologically, that ancient Israelite popular religion was polytheistic, and that Yahweh had a consort, Asherah -- as Bill Dever has repeatedly told us.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Robert F. Smith

[CV75]

OK, thanks for telling me why you ask the question. Here are what appear to me to be obviously unambiguous passages of the Bible:

 

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

(Isaiah 1:18)

 

Since God reasons with us, so he does not expect us to believe anything illogical.

15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

(1 Corinthians 15)

 

Jesus Christ died and rose from the dead the third day after his death.

“This is what the Lord says—

Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty:

I am the first and I am the last;

apart from me there is no God.

7 Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it.

Let him declare and lay out before me

what has happened since I established my ancient people,

and what is yet to come—

yes, let them foretell what will come.

8 Do not tremble, do not be afraid.

Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago?

You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me?

No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.”

(Isaiah 44)

 

I guess I'm confused about this one. It appears to unambiguously say apart from the Lord Almighty, there is no other God. What do you think it says?

 

As far as I can tell from these particular verses, God has not used reason to establish for us that He exists, yet in these references it can be said that He unambiguously calls for our belief, willingness, obedience, loyalty, confidence and even witness.

 

In your first reference, it appears that God unambiguously tells us that justice, mercy, law, punishment, repentance and forgiveness are obtained on His terms alone (verses 16-20), using a reasoning that is only valid with those who already believe in Him.

 

Your second reference contains no reasoning but appears to unambiguously attest to the believing that Jesus atoned for and rose from the dead.

 

Isaiah 44 was written to the believing also (verse 1); but if it is confusing to you, it doesn't appear to me that it really appears to be unambiguous to you. How does that fit into your list of unambiguous scripture (unless it is unambiguously confusing!!!)?

[Bobbieaware]

Well, the Jews don't consider Christians to be monotheists, so you might want to seek conversion to Judaism. An excellent religion, to be sure.

On the other hand, there are plenty of biblical texts which indicate plural gods, beginning with Elohim ("Gods") in Genesis 1:1, which becomes more explicit in Gen 1:26 "And Elohim said, 'Let us create man in our image, after our likeness'," suggesting that multiple gods are involved -- or least a heavenly host of some sort (which we can read about elsewhere, as at Gen 18:1-33, Joshua 5:13-15, Job 38:7, Ps 82:1-8, John 10:34-38, etc.). In any case, the very same words are applied to the human progeny of Adam and Eve in Gen 5:1-3 (likeness, image). In the light of such passages, the LDS notion of a great human family of the genus and species of God takes on new meaning. It is clearly best to take the entire Bible into consideration, rather than isolated proof texts.

We also know, archeologically, that ancient Israelite popular religion was polytheistic, and that Yahweh had a consort, Asherah -- as Bill Dever has repeatedly told us.

Error. Edited June 21, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Robert F. Smith]

..........................................................................

I believe a non-Triadian may read 2 Nephi 31:21 and believe there is only one true God in three persons. A non-Trinitarian like yourself may of course read the same and believe there are three gods who are one in thought, word and deed, but nonetheless three different gods.

So like some biblical passages, 2 Nephi 31:21 seems to me to also not be immune to ambiguity. ...........................................................................................

There is enough ambiguity in the Bible, much of which we may ourselves bring to the text:  The Jerusalem Bible, for example, in its note g to II Timothy 1:2,18, finds that "'Lord' can be taken in either case as a reference either to the Father or to the Son."  This does not even get into the nature of the debate on the early identity of ‘El and Yahweh and where and how they came to be cross-identified, which is seen by some scholars to be a developmental process beginning in early Canaanite times (Fisher & Rummel, eds., Ras Shamra Parallels, III, IV 2).

 

That said, one must always bear in mind that the Israelites were Canaanites in basic language, religion, and culture.  A recent book by Gregorio del Olmo Lete, Canaanite Religion According to the Liturgical Texts of Ugarit, 2nd ed. (Münster: Ugarit-Vertag, 2014), 57 and n80, points this up particularly well by defining their second millennium B.C. pantheon:  The supreme god (head of pantheon) was known as Ilu "God," or ilib "God the Father."  The next most important god was his son Baˁalu "Lord."  In later Israelite religion, of course, Yahweh (YHWH, always read Adonay "My Lords" by the Jews) replaces Baˁalu.

 

Both Baˁalu and YHWH are termed "Cloud-Rider" (Ps 68:4 [MT 68:5]; cf. Dan 7:13), both dwell on Mt. Ṣafon (Pss 29:3,10, 48:2 [MT 48:3], Isa 14:13), both destroy the great Dragon, or Sea (Ps 74:12-15, Isa 27:1, 51:9 [∥II Ne 8:9], Job 7:12), and both arrive in a great thunderstorm, with seven thunders or seven lightnings (Ps 29:3-9; KTU 1.101.3-4 = Ugaritica V.3.3-4),[1] etc.

[1] All discussed by John Day in D. Freedman, ed., Anchor Bible Dictionary, I:548-549; cf. Fred E. Woods, “Who Controls the Water? Yahweh vs. Baal,” FARMS Occasional Papers, 4 (2003):1-12.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Robert F. Smith

[mfbukowski]

Yes, that makes sense and applies to the gods of the Mormon Triad. So Trinitarians would be wrong to say Colossians 2:9 contradicts Mormon doctrine, I think. Thanks for making that clearer to me.

However, I suppose a non-Mormon might say the power of the one and only God is in the three persons of the Trinity. So Paul's words in the verse might be interpreted to be either Trinitarian or Triadian. That means the verse is too ambiguous to be of any further help to me. It shows either belief might be the truth.

Do you, perhaps know of a passage in the Mormon scriptures that show, without a doubt God is a Triad and not a Trinity?

 22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/130.22

 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/20.28?lang=eng#27

 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/god-godhead.p2?lang=eng&letter=g

[mfbukowski]

Thanks for the encouragement. So should I become a Mormon I suppose I'd bring my genuine curiosity, skepticism and many questions. In your opinion, would I be a welcome or unwelcome addition to the LDS church?

Very welcome.

[Sp0ckrates]

I said you should read all of the book of 3 Nephi STARTING at chapter 11.

OK, my apologies. I'll read the rest of 3 Nephi.

In the verses I quoted, the Savior said men could become one with The Father and the Son, in the same way Christ is one with the Father.

I believe what you saying the word as in this verse means in the same way.

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, THAT THEY ALSO MAY BE ONE IN US: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

(John 17:18)

Please tell me: Does the word as in this verse mean in the same way?

As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

(John 17:21)

If the Savior can be taken at the plain meaning his word, such a promise is a very big deal. These verses clearly demonstrate the Father and the Son can be one God (I,e, one presiding divine presidency) but still not be the same being. One being cannot have three separate wills: When in Gethsemane Christ said, "Father, let this cup pass from me," it most assuredly points to the fact that the Father and the Son are not the same being. Just because three individual beings have the same nature doesn't mean they are the same being anymore than my shared fallen nature with the rest of humanity means we are all the same being.

I want to be sure I understand. Are you thinking that if the Father and Son were the same being the Son would never ask for something the Father would not give? Edited June 22, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Sp0ckrates]

In Mormonism, one God doesn't mean one being anymore than in Trinitarianism it means they are one person. Just because beings have the same nature doesn't mean they are the same being. But in the case of God, having the same nature can mean three separate individuals can act as a unified presidency. In Mormonism, the substance that unifies the three individuals who compose the Godhead is the uncreated Spirit of divine intelligence and eternal power. Just because the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost are all filled to eternal fullness with the uncreated Spirit of divine intelligence and eternal power does not mean they are the same being anymore than it means they are all the same person.

Thank you, Bibbieaware. It's moments like these that make long discussions like this worth it!

It seems to me that what Mormons and non-Mormons believe is much closer than I imagined. Consider this. I think Mormons believe this:

1. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are different persons.

2. There is an uncreated Spirit of divine intelligence and power in each of them.

3a. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are separate gods.

Trinitarians believe:

1. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are different persons.

2. There is an uncreated Spirit of divine intelligence and power in each of them.

3b. One God is in each of these three persons.

4. The uncreated Spirit of divine intelligence and power is God.

Now I previously thought Trinitarians believe this uncreated Spirit of divine intelligence and power is a being, but now I'm not sure that is what the Trinitarian doctrine actually teaches.

So please tell me what you think of (4). Do you believe this Spirit is one God, or do you think it is not God but is one Spirit the three gods share?

Edited June 22, 2015 by Sp0ckrates