Wrapping My Head Around The Godhead

[Sp0ckrates]

Well, the Jews don't consider Christians to be monotheists, so you might want to seek conversion to Judaism. An excellent religion, to be sure.

On the other hand, there are plenty of biblical texts which indicate plural gods, beginning with Elohim ("Gods") in Genesis 1:1, which becomes more explicit in Gen 1:26 "And Elohim said, 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness'," suggesting that multiple gods are involved -- or least a heavenly host of some sort (which we can read about elsewhere, as at Gen 18:1-33, Joshua 5:13-15, Job 38:7, Ps 82:1-8, John 10:34-38, etc.). In any case, the very same words are applied to the human progeny of Adam and Eve in Gen 5:1-3 (likeness, image). In the light of such passages, the LDS notion of a great human family of the genus and species of God takes on new meaning. It is clearly best to take the entire Bible into consideration, rather than isolated proof texts.

Yes, I agree one should not ignore the wider context of the whole of scripture. I think it's also best not to ignore any text that doesn't seem to fit what other texts say. Calvinists do this to support their belief that human beings have no freedom to choose to believe, and God arbitrarily selects who will make it to heaven and who will be condemned to hell. Since some texts indicate we do indeed have freedom to accept or reject God, Calvinists are wise to reconsider some of their interpretations of scripture.

The best interpretations of scripture are those that take all verses into account, rather than ignoring those few that disagree. So which of the biblical texts you mentioned explain the true meaning of God's words spoken to Isaiah?

Is there any God besides me?

No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.”

We also know, archeologically, that ancient Israelite popular religion was polytheistic, and that Yahweh had a consort, Asherah -- as Bill Dever has repeatedly told us.

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but God's prophets condemned the use of Asherian Poles as idol worship. I suppose I could look up the Old Testament passages demonstrating this, if you have doubts. Edited June 22, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Sp0ckrates]

As far as I can tell from these particular verses, God has not used reason to establish for us that He exists, yet in these references it can be said that He unambiguously calls for our belief, willingness, obedience, loyalty, confidence and even witness.

In your first reference, it appears that God unambiguously tells us that justice, mercy, law, punishment, repentance and forgiveness are obtained on His terms alone (verses 16-20), using a reasoning that is only valid with those who already believe in Him.

Your second reference contains no reasoning but appears to unambiguously attest to the believing that Jesus atoned for and rose from the dead.

Isaiah 44 was written to the believing also (verse 1); but if it is confusing to you, it doesn't appear to me that it really appears to be unambiguous to you. How does that fit into your list of unambiguous scripture (unless it is unambiguously confusing!!!)?

I agree with your assessments. There is a difference between ambiguity and a lack of clarity. If some text is unclear, it's hard to tell what it possibly means. If something is ambiguous, it's not hard to tell what the possible meanings of the text are, but the text is worded in such a way as to lend itself to two or more possible interpretations.

That being said, my confusion over Isaiah 44 was not over it being ambiguous, for it does not seem so to me. My confusion is over how it could possibly support the Mormon teaching that there is more than one God.

Bobbieaware has explained how, but I don't yet understand his explanation. Once I do, I suppose I might change my mind and say Isaiah 44 is no longer unambiguous to me.

You see?

Edited June 22, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Sp0ckrates]

CV75:

So I've had extensive discussions about the abiguities of scripture with various Christan groups:

Protestants of various kinds tell me the reason scripture is ambiguous to me is that I'm not really a Christian. If I'd only believe as they do and become a Christian, I'd receive the Holy Spirit, and he would reveal all truth, and the true meaning of scripture would then become crystal clear to me.

Many Catholics admit scripture is ambiguous, and they tell me the reason why such ambiguities exist is so sincere people like me who are looking for the truth will see that the Bible alone and the Holy Spirit are not enough to reveal the truth to me. Each Protestant claims to have the Bible and the Holy Spirit, yet they still have a great many different interpretations of what God is saying in scripture. So what I need is a third guide to reveal the truth to me: I need the teaching of the Catholic Church, they say.

But I wonder what you might say to me about the best way to interpret scripture. Will you tell me the Bible, Book of Mormon, other scriptures and the Holy Ghost are all I need? Or will you tell me I also need the wisdom of the prophets of the LDS church to make the scriptures clear to me? Or will you tell me something altogether different?

Edited June 22, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[ERayR]

But I wonder what you might say to me about the best way to interpret scripture.

 

With personal revelation by the spirit of the Holy Ghost. 

 

If scripture were not ambiguous in some places choice would be eliminated.

[thesometimesaint]

CV75:

So I've had extensive discussions about the abiguities of scripture with various Christan groups:

Protestants of various kinds tell me the reason scripture is ambiguous to me is that I'm not really a Christian. If I'd only believe as they do and become a Christian, I'd receive the Holy Spirit, and he would reveal all truth, and the true meaning of scripture would then become crystal clear to me.

Many Catholics admit scripture is ambiguous, and they tell me the reason why such ambiguities exist is so sincere people like me who are looking for the truth will see that the Bible alone and the Holy Spirit are not enough to reveal the truth to me. Each Protestant claims to have the Bible and the Holy Spirit, yet they still have a great many different interpretations of what God is saying in scripture. So what I need is a third guide to reveal the truth to me: I need the teaching of the Catholic Church, they say.

But I wonder what you might say to me about the best way to interpret scripture. Will you tell me the Bible, Book of Mormon, other scriptures and the Holy Ghost are all I need? Or will you tell me I also need the wisdom of the prophets of the LDS church to make the scriptures clear to me? Or will you tell me something altogether different?

 

The LDS are not Sola Scriptura folks. We don't have a closed canon. We believe God has yet reveal many great and important things concerning his Kingdom. The only mortal person who can  speak for the whole Church is the Prophet. But each of us is to get our own spiritual confirmation of what he says.

Edited June 22, 2015 by thesometimesaint

[Sp0ckrates]

With personal revelation by the spirit of the Holy Ghost.

If scripture were not ambiguous in some places choice would be eliminated.

By personal, do you me direct revelation? I wonder if that is the only way the Holy Ghost speaks to me. I've learned a lot about Mormonism by asking questions of you and others here. So it seems to me the Holy Ghost might sometimes choose to speak indirectly to me through people like you.

[Sp0ckrates]

The LDS are not Sola Scriptura folks. We don't have a closed canon. We believe God has yet reveal many great and important things concerning his Kingdom. The only mortal person who can speak for the whole Church is the Prophet. But each of us is to get our own spiritual confirmation of what he says.

Yes. So would you say it's somewhat of a three-pronged approach to learning truth--the scriptures, the Holy Ghost, and the Mormon Prophet and teachers?

Edited June 22, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[thesometimesaint]

Yes. So would you say it's somewhat of a three-pronged approach to learning truth--the scriptures, the Holy Ghost, and the Mormon Prophet and teachers?

 

Yes, but with conditions There will come a time in each of our lives where we rely on our testimony, and not rely on the testimony of someone/something else to carry us through.

[ERayR]

By personal, do you me direct revelation? I wonder if that is the only way the Holy Ghost speaks to me. I've learned a lot about Mormonism by asking questions of you and others here. So it seems to me the Holy Ghost might sometimes choose to speak indirectly to me through people like you.

 

Yes, by inspiration.  You have learned a lot about Mormonism but you have not learned Mormonism. 

[Sp0ckrates]

Yes, but with conditions There will come a time in each of our lives where we rely on our testimony, and not rely on the testimony of someone/something else to carry us through.

I think, then where scriptures are ambiguous, I would be OK accepting the opinion of the correct interpretation from someone else, so long as the one providing that opinion is an authority I know I can trust. I suppose, then my next step would be to consider te reliability of Mormon prophets, as compared to Catholic popes and various Protestant preachers.

[Sp0ckrates]

Yes, by inspiration. You have learned a lot about Mormonism but you have not learned Mormonism.

You mean I have information but not experience?

[thesometimesaint]

I think, then where scriptures are ambiguous, I would be OK accepting the opinion of the correct interpretation from someone else, so long as the one providing that opinion is an authority I know I can trust. I suppose, then my next step would be to consider te reliability of Mormon prophets, as compared to Catholic popes and various Protestant preachers.

 

Mormon Prophets are just as human as you and I. We all make plenty of mistakes and/or have mistaken ideas. As Joseph Smith was told by God. Search it out in your own mind then ask God if it is not true.

[CV75]

You see?

Now that you explained where you were coming from when you said, “I guess I'm confused about this one. It appears to unambiguously say apart from the Lord Almighty, there is no other God,” by clarifying that your confusion is over Mormon teaching rather than what appears to you to be an unambiguous statement, “Yes.”

 

But I wonder what you might say to me about the best way to interpret scripture. Will you tell me the Bible, Book of Mormon, other scriptures and the Holy Ghost are all I need? Or will you tell me I also need the wisdom of the prophets of the LDS church to make the scriptures clear to me? Or will you tell me something altogether different?

For me, the best way to interpret scripture is to integrate our experience with it with every other temporal and spiritual life experience, recognizing that life is a precious gift from God that is to be shared with other lives, and that He is in the details of our lives. For example, those good souls who wrote the scriptures are sharing the godliness (godhead!) of their lives with us, and we do likewise by applying our interpretation of life in blessing others by following the Lord. Other good souls likewise bless us (temporally and spiritually) by sharing what God has given them. Thus we interpret scripture in a well-rounded, integrated manner by interpreting and using life according to the Lord's will.

 

In using this method, it is important to recognize that not all scripture is text, or limited to text, as I pointed out a couple of times from 2 Corinthians 3. So everything the Lord offers us in this life He atoned for is needed to interpret scripture best. Everyone starts somewhere!

[ERayR]

You mean I have information but not experience?

 

No I mean you have information but as yet I have not read that you have prayed for and received a spiritual confirmation.

[Sp0ckrates]

Mormon Prophets are just as human as you and I. We all make plenty of mistakes and/or have mistaken ideas. As Joseph Smith was told by God. Search it out in your own mind then ask God if it is not true.

OK, thanks.

[Sp0ckrates]

No I mean you have information but as yet I have not read that you have prayed for and received a spiritual confirmation.

I'm praying for wisdom. Is that the same?

[ERayR]

I'm praying for wisdom. Is that the same?

 

It is a good start.  Pray for specifics and listen.  Be patient.

[Sp0ckrates]

Now that you explained where you were coming from when you said, “I guess I'm confused about this one. It appears to unambiguously say apart from the Lord Almighty, there is no other God,” by clarifying that your confusion is over Mormon teaching rather than what appears to you to be an unambiguous statement, “Yes.”

For me, the best way to interpret scripture is to integrate our experience with it with every other temporal and spiritual life experience, recognizing that life is a precious gift from God that is to be shared with other lives, and that He is in the details of our lives. For example, those good souls who wrote the scriptures are sharing the godliness (godhead!) of their lives with us, and we do likewise by applying our interpretation of life in blessing others by following the Lord. Other good souls likewise bless us (temporally and spiritually) by sharing what God has given them. Thus we interpret scripture in a well-rounded, integrated manner by interpreting and using life according to the Lord's will.

In using this method, it is important to recognize that not all scripture is text, or limited to text, as I pointed out a couple of times from 2 Corinthians 3. So everything the Lord offers us in this life He atoned for is needed to interpret scripture best. Everyone starts somewhere!

Wait...what? I think I didn't understand anything you just said.

[Sp0ckrates]

It is a good start. Pray for specifics and listen. Be patient.

Do you think God sometimes answers such a prayer by reminding you or me of some scripture we read?

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

(John 14:26)

Edited June 22, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[ERayR]

Do you think God sometimes answers such a prayer by reminding you or me of some scripture we read?

 

But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

(John 14:26)

 

 

Yes

[Sp0ckrates]

Yes

Yes, I think so, too. I wonder, then what being reminded of this means:

Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

( Isaiah 44:8 )

I guess I need to pray, "Are you saying, God there is only one God, or am I misunderstanding you?" Edited June 22, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Sp0ckrates]

ERayR: Or do you think Bobbieaware's answer to my question might be one way the Holy Ghost answers my prayer? (Please see my last reply to Bobbieaware.)

[Robert F. Smith]

Yes, I agree one should not ignore the wider context of the whole of scripture. I think it's also best not to ignore any text that doesn't seem to fit what other texts say. Calvinists do this to support their belief that human beings have no freedom to choose to believe, and God arbitrarily selects who will make it to heaven and who will be condemned to hell. Since some texts indicate we do indeed have freedom to accept or reject God, Calvinists are wise to reconsider some of their interpretations of scripture.

The best interpretations of scripture are those that take all verses into account, rather than ignoring those few that disagree. So which of the biblical texts you mentioned explain the true meaning of God's words spoken to Isaiah?

 

Is there any God besides me?

No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.”

 

 

The passages I cited were chosen especially in view of the Isaiah quotation which you present again here.  Most scholars believe that there are multiple theologies in the Bible.  That is, there is no one biblical theology, not in the OT, and not in the NT.  What we have instead are a variety of differing points of view, which we need to place in the context of the peoples who lived in the ancient Near East during the long period covered by the Bible.

 

 

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but God's prophets condemned the use of Asherian Poles as idol worship. I suppose I could look up the Old Testament passages demonstrating this, if you have doubts.

Of course, but perhaps you missed my specifying Asherah as part of popular Israelite religion.  The official religious establishment and the prophets might take a very different view(s), according to which prophet and which king or priestly group was setting the norms.  In the case of Jeremiah (and Lehi), for example, he found himself out of favor with the kings of Judah, and opposed by other prophets - whom he calls false prophets.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

..........................................................................

Many Catholics admit scripture is ambiguous, and they tell me the reason why such ambiguities exist is so sincere people like me who are looking for the truth will see that the Bible alone and the Holy Spirit are not enough to reveal the truth to me. Each Protestant claims to have the Bible and the Holy Spirit, yet they still have a great many different interpretations of what God is saying in scripture. So what I need is a third guide to reveal the truth to me: I need the teaching of the Catholic Church, they say.

......................................................

Yes.  From the Roman Catholic sacred deposit of the faith, you have an august tradition, as mediated by trained priests.  While from the Protestants you have the priesthood of the believer interpreting Scripture for himself with no mediator.  Most Protestants are very careful not to speak of the Holy Spirit as mediating anything, except maybe a conversion experience, since they try to distinguish themselves from Pentecostalism -- which is dangerously freewheeling.

[Bobbieaware]

Yes, I think so, too. I wonder, then what being reminded of this means:

Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

( Isaiah 44:8 )

I guess I need to pray, "Are you saying, God there is only one God, or am I misunderstanding you?"

As Paul said, "for though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many and lords many,) but to us there is but one God..." The God whom we are commanded to worship is a Holy Presidency composed of three separate divine individuals who work with each other in perfect concert, each with his own eternally important role to carry out. Therefore, there could be no God the Father without a God the Son; there could be no God the Son without a God the Father; and there could be no God the Holy Ghost without a God the Father and a God the Son to testify of an reveal. The Book of Mormon teaches that God is either a synergistic Presidency of three utterly interdependent personages or there is no God at all. But rather than being one being, in Mormonism God is a perfectly divine and harmonious corporate body that unlocks the power of creation and redemption.

There must be a Creator, there must be a Redeemer, and a there must be a Testator or there is no God. Remove God the Father from the Godhead and there is no God; remove God the Son from the Godhead and there is no God; remove God the Holy Ghost from the Godhead and there is no God. Without each member of the Godhead functioning perfectly in his own unique role and capacity, the other members of the Godhead could not function as God on their own. The Godhead is a perfectly unified divine corporate body (much like Paul's divine union he called the body of Christ) composed of three separate individual free agents who could not function in each of their individual capacities without the other two members of the Presidency perfectly executing the responsibilities pertaining to their own unique roles as God.

When speaking within the context of creatures made in the "divine image," the word personage is a synonym for the word being. So simply put, the Trinitarians are trying to have it both ways by admitting that just how two mutually exclusive principles (three separate and distinct persons, yet somehow one being) can both be true is an incomprehensible mystery; and by saying it's all a mystery they don't have to deal with an obvious and inconvenient contradiction.

Until the Trinitarians solve the mystery so that they can explain how three separate and distinct free agents can be one being, there will be no satisfactory conclusion to the LDS/Trinitarian debate. So in continuing to go on and on about it, if one isn't careful he risks falling into Einstein's definition of insanity.

But as a Latter-day Saint I am able to go so far as to say that the members of the Godhead do have ONE common life-force while remaining three separate and distinct individual free agents. That life-force is the eternal Spirit of Truth -- the same Spirit that enables the exalted saints to be filled, as Paul said, "with all the fullness of God."

Edited June 22, 2015 by Bobbieaware