Sp0ckrates Posted June 23, 2015 Author Posted June 23, 2015 (edited) ... Edited June 23, 2015 by Sp0ckrates
Sp0ckrates Posted June 23, 2015 Author Posted June 23, 2015 (edited) As Paul said, "for though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many and lords many,) but to us there is but one God..." The God whom we are commanded to worship is a Holy Presidency composed of three separate divine individuals who work with each other in perfect concert, each with his own eternally important role to carry out. Therefore, there could be no God the Father without a God the Son; there could be no God the Son without a God the Father; and there could be no God the Holy Ghost without a God the Father and a God the Son to testify of an reveal. The Book of Mormon teaches that God is either a synergistic Presidency of three utterly interdependent personages or there is no God at all. But rather than being one being, in Mormonism God is a perfectly divine and harmonious corporate body that unlocks the power of creation and redemption.There must be a Creator, there must be a Redeemer, and a there must be a Testator or there is no God. Remove God the Father from the Godhead and there is no God; remove God the Son from the Godhead and there is no God; remove God the Holy Ghost from the Godhead and there is no God. Without each member of the Godhead functioning perfectly in his own unique role and capacity, the other members of the Godhead could not function as God on their own. The Godhead is a perfectly unified divine corporate body (much like Paul's divine union he called the body of Christ) composed of three separate individual free agents who could not function in each of their individual capacities without the other two members of the Presidency perfectly executing the responsibilities pertaining to their own unique roles as God.When speaking within the context of creatures made in the "divine image," the word personage is a synonym for the word being. So simply put, the Trinitarians are trying to have it both ways by admitting that just how two mutually exclusive principles (three separate and distinct persons, yet somehow one being) can both be true is an incomprehensible mystery; and by saying it's all a mystery they don't have to deal with an obvious and inconvenient contradiction.Until the Trinitarians solve the mystery so that they can explain how three separate and distinct free agents can be one being, there will be no satisfactory conclusion to the LDS/Trinitarian debate. So in continuing to go on and on about it, if one isn't careful he risks falling into Einstein's definition of insanity. But as a Latter-day Saint I am able to go so far as to say that the members of the Godhead do have ONE common life-force while remaining three separate and distinct individual free agents. That life-force is the eternal Spirit of Truth -- the same Spirit that enables the exalted saints to be filled, as Paul said, "with all the fullness of God."And I'm amazed at the last paragraph of your reply, Bobbieaware. For a Trinitarian would say this:As a [Christian] I am able to go so far as to say that the members of the Godhead do have ONE common life-force while remaining three separate and distinct individual free agents. That life-force is the eternal Spirit of Truth -- the same Spirit that enables the exalted saints to be filled, as Paul said, "with all the fullness of God."The words are the same, and I do not see one word in that statement with which a Trinitarian would disagree. She might only add that this life force, thus Spirit of truth is God. Is it possible Mormons and Trinitarians are not so far as I thought from believing the same about God? Edited June 23, 2015 by Sp0ckrates
Bobbieaware Posted June 23, 2015 Posted June 23, 2015 Bobbieaware:Did you see my reply? I'm thinking your post to which I replied is an important on to my understaning you.I deliberately didn't respond to your earlier posts. Because I have a hunch it's much more likely than not that' you will remain one of those individuals who is forever learning but never able to settle the mind on what's true. for this reason my motivation to continue dialogue is beginning to wane. 1
CV75 Posted June 23, 2015 Posted June 23, 2015 Wait...what? I think I didn't understand anything you just said. Now I know why you don't answer my questions! 1
Bobbieaware Posted June 23, 2015 Posted June 23, 2015 (edited) And I'm amazed at the last paragraph of your reply, Bobbieaware. For a Trinitarian would say this:As a [Christian] I am able to go so far as to say that the members of the Godhead do have ONE common life-force while remaining three separate and distinct individual free agents. That life-force is the eternal Spirit of Truth -- the same Spirit that enables the exalted saints to be filled, as Paul said, "with all the fullness of God."The words are the same, and I do not see one word in that statement with which a Trinitarian would disagree. She might only add that this life force, thus Spirit of truth is God. Is it possible Mormons and Trinitarians are not so far as I thought from believing the same about God?One of the main differences between the LDS view of the Godhead and the Trinitarian view is that in Mormonism the substance that unifies the the three members of the Godhead is defined, while the Trinitarians do not define the unifying substance but hold to be an incomprehensible mystery. In Mormonism, the Spirit that unifies the body of Christ (the church) to be "one" is the same Spirit that unifies the Godhead. In John 17, it is this same Spirit that unifies the saints with the Godhead, so much so that eventually the saints who overcome the world through that Spirit will one day receive a fullness of the Spirit and become perfect, even as their Father which is in heaven is perfect.Off to work. Edited June 23, 2015 by Bobbieaware
Nofear Posted June 23, 2015 Posted June 23, 2015 Yes. Brigham Young stated in April of 1852, in a sermon in Salt Lake City, that, of the various deities which exist, one "is our father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do" (Journal of Discourses, 1:50; cf. Paul in I Cor 8:5-6). In his FARMS Preliminary Report N-APO, "Apocryphal Writings," p. 13, Hugh Nibley interprets the meaning underlying many sorts of this class of writing, and notes that All the worlds are organized in a common pattern, . . in all the worlds you will find God alone rules but with a presidency of three and a council of twelve. This is the rule of all worlds. The repetitions are infinite in number and scope . . . . As a Yeu becomes a Father, the Father then appoints new Yeus (Jehovahs) for new worlds who in turn become Fathers, etc. (cf. First Jeu 48:8; 50:1-3; 97:25-28; Pistis Sophia I, 91, 94; III, 285, 319, 329-330; IV, 355:15,23, 370:10,19,24). Thanks for the Nibley quote. One of the few sources I've seen that suggest different worlds have different godheads. Of course the Church doesn't have an official position whether or not there is one Atonement (e.g. one for all creation, everywhere and everywhen) or many (e.g. one per world or small subset of world), but I personally side quite strongly with the plurality view.
Sp0ckrates Posted June 23, 2015 Author Posted June 23, 2015 I deliberately didn't respond to your earlier posts. Because I have a hunch it's much more likely than not that' you will remain one of those individuals who is forever learning but never able to settle the mind on what's true. for this reason my motivation to continue dialogue is beginning to wane.My apologies for wearing out my welcome. You have been more than patient. I much appreciate it.
Sp0ckrates Posted June 23, 2015 Author Posted June 23, 2015 Thank you everyone for helping me think this through. Dudes! You're the best.
thesometimesaint Posted June 23, 2015 Posted June 23, 2015 No need to apologize. What you believe is what you believe. You always been fair to me. Enough of the gushy stuff, Ask away.
mfbukowski Posted June 24, 2015 Posted June 24, 2015 CV75:So I've had extensive discussions about the abiguities of scripture with various Christan groups:Protestants of various kinds tell me the reason scripture is ambiguous to me is that I'm not really a Christian. If I'd only believe as they do and become a Christian, I'd receive the Holy Spirit, and he would reveal all truth, and the true meaning of scripture would then become crystal clear to me.Many Catholics admit scripture is ambiguous, and they tell me the reason why such ambiguities exist is so sincere people like me who are looking for the truth will see that the Bible alone and the Holy Spirit are not enough to reveal the truth to me. Each Protestant claims to have the Bible and the Holy Spirit, yet they still have a great many different interpretations of what God is saying in scripture. So what I need is a third guide to reveal the truth to me: I need the teaching of the Catholic Church, they say.But I wonder what you might say to me about the best way to interpret scripture. Will you tell me the Bible, Book of Mormon, other scriptures and the Holy Ghost are all I need? Or will you tell me I also need the wisdom of the prophets of the LDS church to make the scriptures clear to me? Or will you tell me something altogether different? None of those matter a bit without personal revelation that they are "true" I say all you need is the HG. 1
Recommended Posts