Wrapping My Head Around The Godhead

[Sp0ckrates]

You are being very delicate, thank you. But we are pretty tough skin here or should be so I will just come out and say that one of the common terms for it by antimormons is "celestial sex"...but since we don't believe the physical body is disgusting, that it was created by God for us to be a blessing and a joy, even though there is no revelation IMO that indicates the form of procreation, if it turns out to be that, then great. . The hardships attached to pregnancy will be removed and we will have perfect control over our bodies, so there would be no need for pregnancy to last nine months and be such a toll on the mother's body. Might be able to achieve 'overnight' whatever that means in eternity. So when we get mocked for believing in creating this ways as gods, I just smile and say "you have a problem with sex?".

Even in mortality there are women who are hardly aware of labour and the baby just pops out. One friend was like this, her husband delivered most of her kids because the midwife wouldn't get there in time or there was never time to get to the hospital. One baby was caught with him doing a slider into the bathroom due to it falling out of her as she got out of the bathtub she had just gotten into soak per her midwife's recommendation. She came to see my delivery to see the "real" thing, but I had an epidural by then so she was ticked off she missed it.

I personally don't think that is how spirits are created as I think the father will be more involved than just providing half of the blueprints for the body, but since it hasn't been ruled out by revelation it is possible. And I don't think it's clear that we will have additional physical children, except perhaps during the millennium as women who have no children and desire them will have the chance then according to some teachings, but that would be preJudgment so perhaps not as gods even if resurrected. Lots of speculation in this area. You can ignore it, I am merely sharing this to demonstrate the joy most LDS see in the continuation of our families, not only those we have here.

Got to go be Grandma....

Fascinating stuff! Hope you have time to speculate, later.

[Sp0ckrates]

Back to basics, do you think the Bible offers evidence of three divine beings: Father, Son, and Holy Ghost?

Yes. But I'm not sure if they are three persons each with their own being (a Triad) or three persons who share one and the same being (a Trinity).

Like Stephen looking into the heavens and seeing Jesus on the right hand of the Father; Jesus saying he would send the second comforter, etc.

Absolutely.

Does the Bible not support the reality of any of these individual beings we commonly identify as God?

I believe it does. Edited June 18, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Sp0ckrates]

You asked about the use of the word “Godhead” in those passages, not its definition. I’m not sure where you’d go to find Paul’s teaching of the meaning – an actual definition -- of the word. The relationship between the Father, Son and Holy Ghost described in various passages of the Bible (see the footnote I provided earlier) does, for me at least, support any of the three definitions discussed in this thread.

Yes, I'm OK with us coming up with a definition based on how the word Godhead is used. Though a definition might not be explicit, it is sufficient to be believed if it is implicit.

I’m not sure what you mean by “separate gods” in relation to anything I’ve posted, but I am a god too (John 10:34; Psalms 82:6), for all that’s worth! But I don’t know how “separate” I am, since I am totally dependent on God. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are separate Beings or separate Persons, but I’m not familiar with what it means for Them to be separate Gods (without each Other, They wouldn’t be Who They are).

Let me try to explain: Many non-Mormon Christians believe God is a Trinity--only one God, but in three persons. They tell me anyone who does not accept this is not Christian, and to become such a nonbeliever is to put oneself in jeopardy of eternal damnation in hell.

Mormons (tell me if I'm wrong) believe in a Triad--three gods in one Godhead. They are not one God, for they are each a god. But they are in complete unity in thought, word and deed.

I'm trying to figure out who or what God is--a Trinity or a Triad. Why? Because if God is not a Trinity, I know where I belong--in the LDS church. If God is not a Triad I know I don't belong in the LDS church, so I must continue my search.

It's research, or perhaps detective work. I'm investigating to uncover the truth about Christianity. You see?

How is your reading of the Book of Mormon coming along?

So much to read. So little time! Also the King-James style grammar is difficult to grasp. Are there any more modern Edited June 18, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[ERayR]

Think of Godhead as head council of the Gods

[CV75]

Yes, I'm OK with us coming up with a definition based on how the word Godhead is used. Though a definition might not be explicit, it is sufficient to be believed if it is implicit.

Cool—that is why all three meanings in this thread are good for me and do not seem to contradict each other as applied to any of the three passages.

 

Let me try to explain: Many non-Mormon Christians believe God is a Trinity--only one God, but in three persons. They tell me anyone who does not accept this is not Christian, and to become such a nonbeliever is to put oneself in jeopardy of eternal damnation in hell.

Mormons (tell me if I'm wrong) believe in a Triad--three gods in one Godhead. They are not one God, for they are each a god. But they are in complete unity in thought, word and deed.

I'm trying to figure out who or what God is--a Trinity or a Triad. Why? Because if God is not a Trinity, I know where I belong--in the LDS church. If God is not a Triad I know I don't belong in the LDS church, so I must continue my search.

It's research, or perhaps detective work. I'm investigating to uncover the truth about Christianity. You see?

While I’m familiar with the descriptions you offered for Trinity and Triad, they are not the only ones out there, and I’m not sure exactly what the definitions actually mean to you, so I’m not sure how well they are serving your purposes. As far as religious texts go, if the Bible hasn’t helped you figure out God sufficiently, try the Book of Mormon -- there is an excellent reason for our calling it a marvelous work and a wonder, the keystone of our religion, etc.

 

So much to read. So little time! Also the King-James style grammar is difficult to grasp. Are there any more modern

LOL that simply won't cut it around here!  Go ahead and read it anyway; I’m sure you'll figure it out!

[Sp0ckrates]

...

Edited June 18, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Sp0ckrates]

Think of Godhead as head council of the Gods

Thanks, ERay. I get that, and it is a logical inference to make from the words, "Christ is in the Godhead." But Paul says something like, "The Godhead is in Christ." So I can see how Christ could be in a council of gods, but I'm unsure how a council of gods could be in Christ. So I'm thinking Paul is not describing a council in Colossians 2:9. Does that make sense?

[Sp0ckrates]

Cool—that is why all three meanings in this thread are good for me and do not seem to contradict each other as applied to any of the three passages.

Yes, I think you are correct. I'd add that it is also correct to say the first way of using the word Godhead--though not contradictory--is also not found in the Bible. So I might have to find some other authority to trust before I commit to believing it, I think.

While I’m familiar with the descriptions you offered for Trinity and Triad, they are not the only ones out there,

True. For example, Oneness Penacostals believe there is only one God who takes on three different forms, and Jehovah's Witnesses believe the Father and Son are gods, but the Holy Ghost is merely the power the two gods use.

and I’m not sure exactly what the definitions actually mean to you, so I’m not sure how well they are serving your purposes.

Feel free to ask me any question to help you better understand. I'll do my best to answer.

As far as religious texts go, if the Bible hasn’t helped you figure out God sufficiently, try the Book of Mormon -- there is an excellent reason for our calling it a marvelous work and a wonder, the keystone of our religion, etc.

Yes, I might. Though I think it will be easier for me to take it one book at a time. When someone asks me what book of the Bible I recommend reading first, I say The Gospel of John, because it is my favorite. What book of the Book of Mormon do you enjoy reading most?

LOL that simply won't cut it around here! Go ahead and read it anyway; I’m sure you'll figure it out!

Tell me your favorite and why you like it the most, and I will begin reading it tonight.

[Bobbieaware]

Thanks, ERay. I get that, and it is a logical inference to make from the words, "Christ is in the Godhead." But Paul says something like, "The Godhead is in Christ." So I can see how Christ could be in a council of gods, but I'm unsure how a council of gods could be in Christ. So I'm thinking Paul is not describing a council in Colossians 2:9. Does that make sense?

All the attributes of divine perfection possessed by the personages of the Father and the Holy Ghost are also possessed by the personage of the Son of God. All the infinite and eternal power, knowledge, wisdom, glory, goodness, mercy, love, and so on that the Father and the Holy Ghost possess is also fully possessed by the Son. For upon him was the Spirit of God poured out without measure. And as joint heirs with Christ, the redeemed sons and daughters of God will also possess that same fullness of eternal perfection through that same Spirit. Even as Paul said: "But we all with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even by the Spirit of the Lord," (Paul)

Edited June 19, 2015 by Bobbieaware

[Robert F. Smith]

Paul is saying that Jesus Christ has full-fledged godness (Gottheit). Well, so do the other members of the Gottheit.

So then, would you say Paul is using the word Godhead in a different way than a Mormon who tells me, "There are three gods in the Godhead"?

I suppose not, if you are wont to use that sort of ambiguous terminology.  The main problem inheres in your and many others on this board bringing in baggage obtained from off-the-wall-sources.  More scholarly precision would be helpful.

Edited June 19, 2015 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

Well, Protestants sometimes accuse Catholics of elevating Mary to the state of some kind of Heavenly Mother. But yes, I think you are correct they would oppose such an idea. From what I understand, the Catholic Church and many Protestant denominations say Mormons aren't even Christian.

 

I find it interesting that Catholic have given Jesus' mother Mary the title of Queen of Heaven. Though I suspect they have a different concept of the one holding that title.

Yes, and such facts need to be evaluated in light of much broader parallels:

 

(1) both Mary and Isis are called "Mother of God" (Theotokos “God-bearer”), Queen of Heaven (Regina caeli), Heifer, Star of the Sea, Intercessor, and “Virgin” (Egyptian hwnt).

(2) with both presented iconographically throughout the Mediterranean world as the Mother (Maria Lactans) suckling young Jesus/Horus.

(3) Gilles Quispel even argues that Revelation 12 is really a version of the Legend of Isis the Virgin fleeing with her son Horus from Seth (Typhon-Hydra);

(4) the festal birth of the child-god who comes “to bring salvation into the world” through his legitimate kingship,

(5) the very son of the Sun-god (Malachi 4:2, III Nephi 25:2),

(6) whose traditional birth date, like that of Jesus, is conceptually the very birthday of Reʿ at Winter Solstice,

(7) and is associated with formal temple triads/the Holy Trinity;

(8 ) the newborn child is blessed, “circumcised, purified, and” formally “presented . . . as the new king.”

(9) New Year’s gifts are given for “the feasts of Choiak and Nb-kЗw as well as those of wp rnpt,” i.e., “the Opening of the Year,” just as they are on Three Kings Day among many Christians (January 6): also known as Twelfth Night or Epiphany.

(10) There is a strong link between ancient Egyptian water lustrations and Christian baptism.

(11) The iconography of St. George & the Dragon has its origin with “Horus as a mounted Roman warrior spearing Seth [Apophis] in the form of a crocodile.”

(12) Hell or Amentit as a lake of fire and brimstone (sulfur) which purges or devours the evil ones.

Edited June 19, 2015 by Robert F. Smith

[Calm]

Yes. But I'm not sure if they are three persons each with their own being (a Triad) or three persons who share one and the same being (a Trinity).Absolutely.I believe it does.

How do you believe we as mortals could tell the difference? If you can offer us that, perhaps we may be able to provide something that satisfies you for an answer.

[Calm]

I suppose not, if you are wont to use that sort of ambiguous terminology.  The main problem inheres in your and many others on this board bringing in baggage obtained from off-the-wall-sources.  More scholarly precision would be helpful.

Yeah, but we don't usually talk that way among each other, so it's hard to break the habit of sloppy speech.

[Calm]

Robert, what are you suggesting by those parallels between Isis and Mary and Horus and Christ?

[CV75]

Yes, I think you are correct. I'd add that it is also correct to say the first way of using the word Godhead--though not contradictory--is also not found in the Bible. So I might have to find some other authority to trust before I commit to believing it, I think.

True. For example, Oneness Penacostals believe there is only one God who takes on three different forms, and Jehovah's Witnesses believe the Father and Son are gods, but the Holy Ghost is merely the power the two gods use.

Feel free to ask me any question to help you better understand. I'll do my best to answer.

Yes, I might. Though I think it will be easier for me to take it one book at a time. When someone asks me what book of the Bible I recommend reading first, I say The Gospel of John, because it is my favorite. What book of the Book of Mormon do you enjoy reading most?

Tell me your favorite and why you like it the most, and I will begin reading it tonight.

As I mentioned earlier, I’m not sure where you’d go to find Paul’s teaching of the meaning of the word “Godhead”. Is there anything else you would accept as an authoritative source?

 

Regardless of what I understand (or rather, not understand since I am rather dense) of what the definitions mean to you, it is apparent to me that whatever meanings you attach to them aren’t serving your purpose of figuring out whom or what God is. So I would try a different approach for more fruitful research and investigation.

 

I recommend reading the Book of Mormon cover to cover. My favorite book for that purpose would therefore be 1 Nephi.

[Sp0ckrates]

All the attributes of divine perfection possessed by the personages of the Father and the Holy Ghost are also possessed by the personage of the Son of God. All the infinite and eternal power, knowledge, wisdom, glory, goodness, mercy, love, and so on that the Father and the Holy Ghost possess is also fully possessed by the Son. For upon him was the Spirit of God poured out without measure. And as joint heirs with Christ, the redeemed sons and daughters of God will also possess that same fullness of eternal perfection through that same Spirit. Even as Paul said: "But we all with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even by the Spirit of the Lord," (Paul)

The passage you quoted in context:

12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

(2 Corinthians 3)

Thanks for pointing this out, Bobbieaware. It seems to me to be a wonderful comparison Paul makes between who Moses was and who we hope to become. After meeting with God face to face, his face glowed brightly, and the Isrealites feared him. But after time the glow faded, so he put a veil over his face to hide the fact it was fading. I think what Paul is probably saying is that once we are glorified (exalted?) we won't need a veil like Moses, for the glory will never fade from our faces. Edited June 19, 2015 by Sp0ckrates

[Calm]

Others disagree that should be interpreted that Moses was hiding the fact of it dimming:

http://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/3-13.htm

[Sp0ckrates]

Others disagree that should be interpreted that Moses was hiding the fact of it dimming:

http://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/3-13.htm

I could be wrong, but don't each of those say he didn't want them to see it was fading?

[Sp0ckrates]

Just in case I miss this later, if no one posts it remind me to post how the Spirit communicates true enlightenment (info) as well as plurality.

Did you want to be reminded?

[Calm]

I could be wrong, but don't each of those say he didn't want them to see it was fading?

I thought you were implying he was being deceptive, pretending it wasn't happening. If I misunderstood, sorry.

[Calm]

Did you want to be reminded?

Grandkids still here, too many interruptions to do serious research and thought. We may have a sleepover so it may be tomorrow.

[Sp0ckrates]

I thought you were implying he was being deceptive, pretending it wasn't happening. If I misunderstood, sorry.

No problem. I can see how you would get that idea. I like the glowing bright. Must have been a sight to see Moses. It will be a sight to see you, too, should God make that possible.

[Sp0ckrates]

Grandkids still here, too many interruptions to do serious research and thought. We may have a sleepover so it may be tomorrow.

No problem. You go grandma!

[Calm]

Am supposed to be placing my head on the pillow, but not quite ready so found this on revelation:

“It is the privilege of the children of God to come to God and get revelation. … God is not a respecter of persons; we all have the same privilege.”¹⁴

“We believe that we have a right to revelations, visions, and dreams from God, our heavenly Father; and light and intelligence, through the gift of the Holy Ghost, in the name of Jesus Christ, on all subjects pertaining to our spiritual welfare; if it so be that we keep his commandments, so as to render ourselves worthy in his sight.”¹⁵

“A person may profit by noticing the first intimation of the spirit of revelation; for instance, when you feel pure intelligence flowing into you, it may give you sudden strokes of ideas, so that by noticing it, you may find it fulfilled the same day or soon; (i.e.) those things that were presented unto your minds by the Spirit of God, will come to pass; and thus by learning the Spirit of God and understanding it, you may grow into the principle of revelation, until you become perfect in Christ Jesus.”¹⁶

“I have an old edition of the New Testament in the Latin, Hebrew, German and Greek languages. … I thank God that I have got this old book; but I thank him more for the gift of the Holy Ghost. I have got the oldest book in the world; but I have got the oldest book in my heart, even the gift of the Holy Ghost. … The Holy Ghost … is within me, and comprehends more than all the world; and I will associate myself with him.”¹⁷

“No man can receive the Holy Ghost without receiving revelations. The Holy Ghost is a revelator.”¹⁸

https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-10?lang=eng
 
https://www.lds.org/new-era/2004/09/eight-ways-god-can-speak-to-you?lang=eng

 
 

Revelation is communication from God to man. It can occur in many different ways. Some prophets, like Moses and Joseph Smith, have talked with God face to face. Some persons have had personal communication with angels. Other revelations have come, as Elder James E. Talmage (1862–1933) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles described it, “through the dreams of sleep or in waking visions of the mind.”

In its more familiar forms, revelation or inspiration comes by means of words or thoughts communicated to the mind (see Enos 1:10D&C 8:2–3), by sudden enlightenment D&C 6:14–15[), by positive or negative feelings about proposed courses of action, or even by inspiring performances, as in the performing arts. As President Boyd K. Packer, Acting President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, has stated, “Inspiration comes more as a feeling than as a sound.”.....

The fifth purpose of revelation is to inform.

This may consist of inspiration giving a person the words to speak on a particular occasion, such as in the blessings pronounced by a patriarch or in sermons or other words spoken under the influence of the Holy Ghost. The Lord commanded Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon to lift up their voices and speak the thoughts that would be put into their hearts, “for it shall be given you in the very hour, yea, in the very moment, what ye shall say” (D&C 100:6; see also D&C 84:85 D&C 124:97

In other circumstances, needed information is communicated by the quiet whisperings of the Spirit. A child loses a treasured possession, prays for help, and is inspired to find it; an adult has a problem at work, at home, or in familyhistory research, prays, and is led to the information necessary to resolve it; a Church leader prays to know whom the Lord would have him call to fill a position, and the Spirit whispers a name. In all of these examples, familiar to each of us, the Holy Ghost acts in His office as a teacher and revelator, communicating information and truths for the edification and guidance of the recipient.

Edited June 19, 2015 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Also:

 

“This first Comforter or Holy Ghost has no other effect than pure intelligence” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1938], p. 149).

Elder Parley P. Pratt also described the effects of the Holy Ghost:

“[His influence] quickens all the intellectual faculties, increases, enlarges, expands and purifies all the natural passions and affections; and adapts them, by the gift of wisdom, to their lawful use. It inspires, develops, cultivates and matures all the fine-toned sympathies, joys, tastes, kindred feelings and affections of our nature. It inspires virtue, kindness, goodness, tenderness, gentleness and charity. It develops beauty of person, form and features. It tends to health, vigor, animation and social feeling. It invigorates all the faculties of the physical and intellectual man. It strengthens, and gives tone to the nerves. In short, it is, as it were, marrow to the bone, joy to the heart, light to the eyes, music to the ears, and life to the whole being” (Key to the Science of Theology, 9th ed. [salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1965], p. 101).

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/aaronic-priesthood-manual-3/lesson-17-the-holy-ghost?lang=eng