thesometimesaint Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 Is that a typeo, or are you saying there is one God who is both the Father and the Son? I'm both a father and a son. So it is plausible for God the Father and God the Son to also.
Sp0ckrates Posted June 17, 2015 Author Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) Col 2:9 is speaking in Greek about the pleroma of the theotetos somatikos, which sounds a bit Gnostic, but which argues that Jesus Christ is the bodily embodiment in full of the Gottheit (essence of deity, Gottergestalt), and not simply an emanation.Since both God and the Holy Spirit are described anthropomorphically in the Book of Mormon, it is not possible to formulate a doctrine of hypostatic union among the members of the Gottheit, but rather no more than a full unity of purpose and love among perfect beings, with God the Father at their head -- one God (II Nephi 31:21, Jacob 4:5, Alma 11:44, III Nephi 11:32, 35-36, Mormon 7:7, Ether 12:41, Moroni 10:34). Formal language of cross-identification (Mosiah 13:28, 15:1-5) is, therefore, only to be taken as metaphorical, so that Athe will of the Son@ is Aswallowed up in the will of the Father@ (Mosiah 15:7). In fact, David Paulsen and Ari Bruening argue for a social trinity in III Nephi.[1][1] Paulsen & Bruening, AThe Social Model of the Trinity in 3 Nephi,@ in Skinner & Strathearn, eds., Third Nephi, 191-233.Colossians 2:99 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.Yes, please correct me if I'm wrong. It seems to me Paul believes the one Godhead is in Christ. But from what I understand, Mormonism teaches Christ is in the one Godhead. So if I become a Mormon, should I accept the truth that Paul was mistaken? Edited June 17, 2015 by Sp0ckrates
Sp0ckrates Posted June 17, 2015 Author Posted June 17, 2015 I'm both a father and a son. So it is plausible for God the Father and God the Son to also.So are you a Modalists or a Trinitarian or something else?
Sp0ckrates Posted June 17, 2015 Author Posted June 17, 2015 Robert: Or is that a question I shouldn't ask?
thesometimesaint Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 So are you a Modalists or a Trinitarian or something else? Something else. The LDS are not limited to just the Bible which believe believe is the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. We depend on modern day Apostles to provide further light and truth. SEE Articles of Faith #9We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God. I don't believe Paul was wrong. I think later men put an interpretation onto Paul that he never meant.
Sp0ckrates Posted June 17, 2015 Author Posted June 17, 2015 Something else. The LDS are not limited to just the Bible which believe believe is the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. We depend on modern day Apostles to provide further light and truth.SEE Articles of Faith #9We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.I don't believe Paul was wrong. I think later men put an interpretation onto Paul that he never meant.Interesting. So you are a Mormon who believes in one God, not three?
thesometimesaint Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 Interesting. So you are a Mormon who believes in one God, not three? Something else. I believe in the Godhead. There is one God(The Father), and one God(The Son), and one God(the Holy Ghost), which I have anything to do with. I pray to God the Father, in the name of God the Son, by the power of God the Holy Ghost. IE; The Lords Prayer. What others do is up to them.
Robert F. Smith Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 Colossians 2:99 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.Yes, please correct me if I'm wrong. It seems to me Paul believes the one Godhead is in Christ. But from what I understand, Mormonism teaches Christ is in the one Godhead.So if I become a Mormon, should I accept the truth that Paul was mistaken? You will notice that I do not use the term "Godhead," since it seems very misleading. The word-element "head" alone is likely to take one in the wrong direction, which is why I prefer the German term Gottheit, or even Göttergestalt, which allow for a broader conceptualization. We are dealing here with the essential nature of divinity or deity being fully possessed by Jesus Christ as a glorified being, but only under the systematic theological assumptions of mainstream Roman Catholic and Protestant belief does this mean that God is Father, Son, and Holy Ghost in one exclusive divine being as the very pleroma (fulness). The text does not say that. It grants only that Jesus Christ is in full possession of godness/divinity, and allows for a universe in which Jesus is a member of a social trinity. As Rob Lacey puts it in his The Word on the Street (Zondervan, 2002/2004), 409, re Col 2:9, "Like I say, build on the Liberator -- his normal-Joe flesh and blood was jam packed full of divine DNA." That is a Protestant view, but reads like something from LDS theology. 3
Robert F. Smith Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 Robert: Or is that a question I shouldn't ask?Ask any question you like. Hugh Nibley was more concerned (as am I) that few people have any questions, which is not a good sign. Not good at all.
Anakin7 Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 No Sp0krates thats not what I was implying. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
mfbukowski Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 So it sounds to me like the Godhead is not God himself, but is instead the name of the group, or maybe organization, or perhaps government that the three gods are in.Is this correct?More like a family. Three persons in the Family called God, each one is God. Mama Jones, Papa Jones, Baby Jones are each a "Jones" and the family all together is also called "Jones" We worship the God family.
Dion Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 I think that it's interesting that folks are even thinking about the nature of God when we we all face so many pressing problems in our lives! My understanding of the traditional Christian Trinity is that there are three persons who are one in substance. They are composed of the same spiritual reality. The LDS doctrine of the Godhead says that there are three persons who are one in purpose: Father, Son and Spirit working together as one. These definitions don't necessarily contradict each other. Jesus Christ is God the Son. Why is this a problem?
mfbukowski Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 Yes, three gods in one Godhead. Is this a biblical teaching, or is it unique to the more recent doctrines of the LDS church?John 10 31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. 39Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand, Jesus was quoting Psalm 82 God stands in the congregation of the mighty;He judges among the gods.[a]2 How long will you judge unjustly,And show partiality to the wicked? Selah3 Defend the poor and fatherless;Do justice to the afflicted and needy.4 Deliver the poor and needy;Free them from the hand of the wicked.5 They do not know, nor do they understand;They walk about in darkness;All the foundations of the earth are unstable.6 I said, “You are gods,[b]And all of you are children of the Most High.7 But you shall die like men,And fall like one of the princes.”8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;For You shall inherit all nations. We are all part of the Family God, which is what it means to be a Human being. We all have a spark of divine nature within us, we are all gods in embryo and we want to grow up and be like Mom and Dad. It really is that simple. No "Trinity" no "Substance/essence/Being" stuff, just a Family of Humankind with at exalted Human personage, infinitely above us in intelligence and love and ..... everything..... leading us as Our Father. And we also have a Mother there. But that is probably too much for now anyway.
mfbukowski Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 More like a family. Three persons in the Family called God, each one is God. Mama Jones, Papa Jones, Baby Jones are each a "Jones" and the family all together is also called "Jones" We worship the God family.Saying "We pray to God" is like saying "I am going to talk to the Jones family". "God inspired people to write scripture" is similar to "I got a letter from the Jones family and they said..." The Jones family, working on the farm, are one in purpose. They all want to get the farm more productive and work hard on one goal, the productivity of the farm. No substance or Being, just one in purpose, but perfectly in tune and of "one mind" in perfect constant communication. "This is my work and my glory- to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man"- THAT is what the God family work on, in essence, raising US- raising the "kids" to become like them. Two year olds understand it perfectly. Become as a little child- not a theologian!
JAHS Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 I like to think of the word "God" as being either singular or plural, depending on the context, like the word "deer". This helps with a few scriptures that seem to suggest that "God" is refering to a single entity. In the book of: Mormon:"And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end." (Mormon 7: 7) If the word "God" can refer to a group of individuals this scripture makes more sense, along with the fact that they are one in purpose.
mfbukowski Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 Thanks for the post. Are you saying the Godhead is this nature? Or are you saying each God in the Godhead has this nature?"Are you saying that the Jones family is this nature? Or are you saying that each Jones in the Jones family has this nature?" How can a family be a "nature"?? See why I have a problem with your words?
mfbukowski Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 So since they knew it, is it correct to infer they correctly explained it in the Bible?See my biblical quotes. The answer is "yes", INSOFAR as we have "the bible" whatever that even means. You realize you are talking about scraps of manuscripts written by scribes who copied other manuscripts which were allegedly written by witnesses right? Clearly what we have shows that the idea was current before "the bible" was canonized, and that is about the best we can do.
Sp0ckrates Posted June 17, 2015 Author Posted June 17, 2015 You will notice that I do not use the term "Godhead," since it seems very misleading. The word-element "head" alone is likely to take one in the wrong direction, which is why I prefer the German term Gottheit, or even Göttergestalt, which allow for a broader conceptualization. We are dealing here with the essential nature of divinity or deity being fully possessed by Jesus Christ as a glorified being, but only under the systematic theological assumptions of mainstream Roman Catholic and Protestant belief does this mean that God is Father, Son, and Holy Ghost in one exclusive divine being as the very pleroma (fulness). The text does not say that. It grants only that Jesus Christ is in full possession of godness/divinity, and allows for a universe in which Jesus is a member of a social trinity.As Rob Lacey puts it in his The Word on the Street (Zondervan, 2002/2004), 409, re Col 2:9, "Like I say, build on the Liberator -- his normal-Joe flesh and blood was jam packed full of divine DNA." That is a Protestant view, but reads like something from LDS theology.Well, I guess I haven't been clear with my questions. I'm not so concerned with how the word Godhead is defined. I'm trying to figure out how it is used. Let me ask a simple question to which you can give a simple answer of yes or no: Does Mormonism teach there are three gods in the Godhead?
Sp0ckrates Posted June 17, 2015 Author Posted June 17, 2015 No Sp0krates thats not what I was implying.In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7OK. Thanks.
Flyonthewall Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) Well, I guess I haven't been clear with my questions. I'm not so concerned with how the word Godhead is defined. I'm trying to figure out how it is used. Let me ask a simple question to which you can give a simple answer of yes or no: Does Mormonism teach there are three gods in the Godhead?Simple answer: Yes. There are 3 divine beings that make up the Godhead. This from one of the 12 Apostles of our Church: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2007/10/the-only-true-god-and-jesus-christ-whom-he-hath-sent?lang=eng&query=godhead Our first and foremost article of faith in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.”2 We believe these three divine persons constituting a single Godhead are united in purpose, in manner, in testimony, in mission. We believe Them to be filled with the same godly sense of mercy and love, justice and grace, patience, forgiveness, and redemption. I think it is accurate to say we believe They are one in every significant and eternal aspect imaginable except believing Them to be three persons combined in one substance, a Trinitarian notion never set forth in the scriptures because it is not true. Edited June 17, 2015 by Flyonthewall 1
Sp0ckrates Posted June 17, 2015 Author Posted June 17, 2015 I think that it's interesting that folks are even thinking about the nature of God when we we all face so many pressing problems in our lives!Hi Dion. My thought is that once I find the true church, it will be the church most likely to help me through such problems. My understanding of the traditional Christian Trinity is that there are three persons who are one in substance. Well, I started this discussion to talk about what Mormons believe, not about what other Christians believe. But if you think it will help me understand by comparing the two, I'm open to that.They are composed of the same spiritual reality. The LDS doctrine of the Godhead says that there are three persons who are one in purpose: Father, Son and Spirit working together as one. These definitions don't necessarily contradict each other.Jesus Christ is God the Son. Why is this a problem?Do you mean there are three gods in one Godhead?
Calm Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 Have you read the GospelPrinciples manual? Online and quick read. Covers basics well IMO.For a larger variety, the Encyclopedia of Mormonism is online as well.It can help to read to fill in large structure first, than nuances by asking.Pardon me if you've read it already, but the Godhead question led me to believ you hadn't, so I thought I mention it.
Sp0ckrates Posted June 17, 2015 Author Posted June 17, 2015 John 10Jesus was quoting Psalm 82We are all part of the Family God, which is what it means to be a Human being. We all have a spark of divine nature within us, we are all gods in embryo and we want to grow up and be like Mom and Dad.It really is that simple. No "Trinity" no "Substance/essence/Being" stuff, just a Family of Humankind with at exalted Human personage, infinitely above us in intelligence and love and ..... everything..... leading us as Our Father.And we also have a Mother there. But that is probably too much for now anyway.Thanks for the biblical verses, MFB. But I was wondering about the Godhead. Are the Father, Son and Holy Ghost in it, or is it in them?
Flyonthewall Posted June 17, 2015 Posted June 17, 2015 And from the same article: To whom was Jesus pleading so fervently all those years, including in such anguished cries as “O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me”14 and “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me”?15 To acknowledge the scriptural evidence that otherwise perfectly united members of the Godhead are nevertheless separate and distinct beings is not to be guilty of polytheism; it is, rather, part of the great revelation Jesus came to deliver concerning the nature of divine beings. Perhaps the Apostle Paul said it best: “Christ Jesus … being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.”16
Sp0ckrates Posted June 18, 2015 Author Posted June 18, 2015 I like to think of the word "God" as being either singular or plural, depending on the context, like the word "deer". This helps with a few scriptures that seem to suggest that "God" is refering to a single entity. In the book of: Mormon:"And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end." (Mormon 7: 7)If the word "God" can refer to a group of individuals this scripture makes more sense, along with the fact that they are one in purpose.Thanks, JAHS. So since God may refer to a group, is it fair to say the Godhead is the group the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are in?
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