Olmec - Jaredite Convergance?

[mfbukowski]

In post #1, ntrw said "The Jaredites are a dynastic lineage described in the Book of Mormon and not a unique

nation or civilization".

 

I was wondering if he was expressing his opinion or whether the Book of Mormon teaches the Jaredites

were not a unique nation or civilization.

 

Thanks,

Jim

 

Read it for yourself, Ether Chapter 1.  They were a family or dynastic lineage.  Just read post 1 here for pete's sake, he does a good job!  Ntrw summarizes the history well.

 

But if I were you, why would you trust what anyone tells you?  Read it for yourself.  You can't let others tell you what is right, you have to figure that out for yourself.

[Freedom]

From the time of their florescence in the mid-second millennium B.C., the Olmec surely constituted a major civilization, with writing, math, and astronomy, as well as massive, cyclopean construction and sculpture, and a far reaching trade network.  They may not have coelesced into a single nation state so much as remained competing city states and warlords (like the later Maya), which is why we may want to relate that to the battles and the hostage system for Jaredite enemy royals (commonly in the Ottoman Empire, Japan, China, and even the British Empire).  Read Karl Wittfogel on Oriental Despotism (Yale, 1957), and you will have a much better feel for what their culture amounted to and how it functioned.

I have studied it quite extensively. Read Olmec Archaeology and Early Mesoamerica by Christopher Pool, and The Olmecs, Americas first Civilization by Richard Diel. It was not a civilization so much as it was a cultural group with several chiefdoms. Today we refer to western civilization as a single cultural group, but it is made up of several different countries, languages and traditions.  We see that their art and archaeology was wide spread, but so to can we find american movies, clothing, and plastic plates in many different nation states. These to not represent a specific civilization, but rather the cultural trends over a large area and over many separate and distinct political groups. 

 

There is evidence of an administrative hierarchy but it cannot be proven yet. There were three distinctive writing systems that may share a common origin. Diel wonders whether we should refer to Olmec as nothing more than an art style, much like the early European trends of baroque, classical and romantic. For example, both Bach and Handel were of the baroque style but one live primarily in Germany and the other in England. 

[Robert F. Smith]

They are reading it in a biblical context, and are not concerned with critical analysis.  Naive, but harmless.

 

According to the introductory notes in the Book of Mormon, Ether chapter 1 says,

"Moroni abridges the writings of Ether—Ether’s genealogy is set forth—The

language of the Jaredites is not confounded at the Tower of Babel".

 

This teaching is prevalent in LDS history but contradicted in the last source I provide.

 

I wonder if these are all naive and harmless false teachings.

 

Sources follow ...

......................................................................

Jim

Thanks for the many sources, Jim.  You could multiply that many times over, but what have you actually shown by doing so?

 

You could likewise demonstrate that most people believe that the sun rises in the east every morning.  In a manner of speaking that is true, but for a critical thinker or scientist it most certainly is not true.  However, unless we are addressing the physical laws of the universe, such figurative language is harmless.  The Bible itself frequently uses such figurative language in a host of ways.  Does that make the Bible false?  Of course not.

 

All of us use such language from time to time simply in order to communicate effectively.  I should not need to point that out to you.  You seem to have completely missed the point in this matter:  In the time of Jared and his Brother there was a Great Tower, and it was not called the "Tower of Babel."  That is a later retrojection, of which we have many in biblical tradition.

Edited May 17, 2015 by Robert F. Smith

[theplains]

Thanks for the many sources, Jim.  You could multiply that many times over, but what have you actually shown by doing so?

 

...

 

You seem to have completely missed the point in this matter:  In the time of Jared and his Brother there was a Great Tower, and it was not called the "Tower of Babel."  That is a later retrojection, of which we have many in biblical tradition.

 

I only provided the LDS teachings that they consider it as the Tower of Babel and not some other

tower. Unless you, personally, believe there were two acts of God to confound the language of all

the people.  Whether the sources I provided are false teachings is another matter.  The church in

the past has also identified the location of the Hill Cumorah. It is either true or false teaching.

 

Regards,

Jim

[Freedom]

I only provided the LDS teachings that they consider it as the Tower of Babel and not some other

tower. Unless you, personally, believe there were two acts of God to confound the language of all

the people.  Whether the sources I provided are false teachings is another matter.  The church in

the past has also identified the location of the Hill Cumorah. It is either true or false teaching.

 

Regards,

Jim

The assumption was that it was the tower of babel. the name tower of babel is an anachronism. The tower mentioned in the book of mormon and in the bible is not the tower of babel. It is traditionally referred to as such, but that does not make it so. 

[strappinglad]

I've been to Moscow but I've never been to Russia. How is that possible?

We teach that there was a place and time in which the Lord confused the languages. This place and time is referred in the current Bible as " The Tower of Babel " What it was called by those living at the time of the construction is not known and probably never will be. Writers centuries later dubbed it 'The Tower of Babel " for their own purposes. There may have been 2 towers for all we know. In the same way we have references to a Hill Cumorah , one accepted in the current thinking as a drumlin in NY, and held by some ,erroneously in my opinion , as THE hill. That the original Cumorah was somewhere else can be true also.

Edited May 17, 2015 by strappinglad

[Robert F. Smith]

I only provided the LDS teachings that they consider it as the Tower of Babel and not some other

tower. Unless you, personally, believe there were two acts of God to confound the language of all

the people.  Whether the sources I provided are false teachings is another matter.  The church in

the past has also identified the location of the Hill Cumorah. It is either true or false teaching.

 

Regards,

Jim

So, you therefore believe in false geocentrism, since we speak of the sun rising in the morning?  So, you therefore believe that each of Jesus' parables is a true story in the sense that it actually occurred or will occur?  So, all figurative language to you is literal?  So, you are the final arbiter on what is true and what is false?  So, you tell others what they believe, and, if you say it, it must be so?  No room for actual discussion in which there is real give and take?  No room for actual literary analysis?  So, if you make a claim, that is the final word on the matter?

 

I'd like to see your grades in high school English.  You didn't get it then.  You still don't get it.

[Robert F. Smith]

The assumption was that it was the tower of babel. the name tower of babel is an anachronism. The tower mentioned in the book of mormon and in the bible is not the tower of babel. It is traditionally referred to as such, but that does not make it so. 

Thanks for understanding so well, Freedom.

[cinepro]

I've been to Moscow but I've never been to Russia. How is that possible?

We teach that there was a place and time in which the Lord confused the languages. This place and time is referred in the current Bible as " The Tower of Babel " What it was called by those living at the time of the construction is not known and probably never will be. Writers centuries later dubbed it 'The Tower of Babel " for their own purposes. There may have been 2 towers for all we know. In the same way we have references to a Hill Cumorah , one accepted in the current thinking as a drumlin in NY, and held by some ,erroneously in my opinion , as THE hill. That the original Cumorah was somewhere else can be true also.

 

Just so I'm clear, when it comes to the biblical story of the Lord confounding the languages of the world as the people tried to build a tower, the fact that we now call it "Babel" is the part that we're saying didn't happen?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

According to an LDS teaching, there is.  Or maybe this is a false teaching.

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/book-of-mormon-student-study-guide/ether-1?lang=eng

 

Regards,

Jim

Please read this,

Don Parry and I are not in disagreement, and you misunderstand the point, cinepro -- I may have been too brief since I have covered this matter repeatedly on this board:

 

"Babel" occurs nowhere in the Book of Mormon ("Babylon" however does occur), and the phrase "tower of Babel" does not occur there.  So why does it occur in the Bible?  Because the Bible was edited by the Jews during and after the Babylonian Captivity, and they attached the then familiar name of the capital of their capitivity to the great tower story.  That is how some anachronisms arise, through an honest attempt to help clarify the text.  The Great Tower story of the Book of Mormon is earlier and not muddied by that anachronism.

 

When Professor Parry refers to the historicity of the story, he is not referring to the historicity of the term "Babel," but to the gist of the great tower story.  We should all be sophisticated enough to understand that.

[Robert F. Smith]

Just so I'm clear, when it comes to the biblical story of the Lord confounding the languages of the world as the people tried to build a tower, the fact that we now call it "Babel" is the part that we're saying didn't happen?

Yeh.

 

Many of the sagas told in the biblical Primeval History in Genesis are available in much earlier Mesopotamian versions, with the names and some details differing from one tradition to another.  The Sumero-Akkadians were building ziggurats for thousands of years, and for all we know the story of the Great Tower is really a story of the hubris of humankind being its nemesis -- just as the Garden Story is about childhood's end (lost innocence, lost naivete).  We reenact such sagas in ritual fashion for convenantal purposes, figurative motifs and all.

 

Who was the guy who built the Ark in the Great Flood Story?  Aside from Noah, we also have the names Atrahasis, Deucalion, Nahmasulel, Utnapishtim, and Ziusudra.  Does it really matter what name we call him?

 

In the Sumerian version of the confounding of language, the names of the gods involved differ from the biblical account:  “The whole universe, the people in unison, to Enlil in one tongue (eme-aš-àm) gave praise,” to be followed shortly by the struggle between Enlil and Enki, lord of Eridu, who “changed the speech in their mouths, put contention into it, into the speech of man that (until then) had been one.”  See S. N. Kramer, “The ‘Babel of Tongues’: A Sumerian Version,” in W. W. Hallo, ed., Essays in Memory of E. A. Speiser, JAOS 88 (New Haven, 1968), 108-111; Kramer, Sumerian Mythology, rev. ed. (Harper & Row, 1961/reprint Univ. of Penn. Press, 1972), xiv,107 n. 2.

[telnetd]

So, you therefore believe in false geocentrism, since we speak of the sun rising in the morning?  So, you therefore believe that each of Jesus' parables is a true story in the sense that it actually occurred or will occur?  So, all figurative language to you is literal?  So, you are the final arbiter on what is true and what is false?  So, you tell others what they believe, and, if you say it, it must be so?  No room for actual discussion in which there is real give and take?  No room for actual literary analysis?  So, if you make a claim, that is the final word on the matter?

 

I'd like to see your grades in high school English.  You didn't get it then.  You still don't get it.

 

Take it easy on Jim.  Maybe the LDS teachings have to be modified or clarrified.  If

using the term 'Tower of Babel' is wrong, then Mormon teachers should use a different

phrase. As for the hill Cumorah the article leaves no misunderstandings.

 

Gail

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I only provided the LDS teachings that they consider it as the Tower of Babel and not some other

tower. Unless you, personally, believe there were two acts of God to confound the language of all

the people.  Whether the sources I provided are false teachings is another matter.  The church in

the past has also identified the location of the Hill Cumorah. It is either true or false teaching.

 

Regards,

Jim

Uh Jim, you are missing it and missing it rather spectacularly. What did those that built the tower call it? I'll give you a hint, it was not the "Tower of Babel". That was something that people came up with later that referred to a great tower that was built.

 

You think you have a gotcha but this is really, and I mean this, as bad as the "adieu argument". It is a total non issue.

 

In fact, the fact that BoM calls it a "great tower" actually lends credibility to the story found in Ether.

[Robert F. Smith]

Take it easy on Jim.  Maybe the LDS teachings have to be modified or clarrified.  If

using the term 'Tower of Babel' is wrong, then Mormon teachers should use a different

phrase. As for the hill Cumorah the article leaves no misunderstandings.

 

Gail

I see no reason to alter the Sunday School teachings for the LDS or for the Methodists, et al., Gail.  I thought that we were having a real discussion of the inside dope on many of these issues.  I assumed too much.  There are thousands of anachronisms in the biblical text, and I don't think that rewriting that anthology of documents is actually workable or likely.  For what purpose?  You can see how difficult some people on this board find merely digesting one easy comment on an obvious anachronism.  A fortiori for the more difficult ones.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Robert F. Smith

[telnetd]

In fact, the fact that BoM calls it a "great tower" actually lends credibility to the story found in Ether.

 

Not a valid point.  I hope you are not resorting to a game like my tower is higher

than yours so my story in my book is more credible than yours :-)

 

"And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach

unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon

the face of the whole earth"

 

Gail

[telnetd]

You can see how difficult some people on this board find merely digesting one easy comment on an obvious anachronism.  A fortiori for the more difficult ones.

 

Agreed :-)

[Robert F. Smith]

 

Not a valid point.  I hope you are not resorting to a game like my tower is higher

than yours so my story in my book is more credible than yours :-)

 

"And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach

unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon

the face of the whole earth"

 

Gail

 

I think his point was that the Book of Mormon does not use the late, post-Exilic "Babel" anachronism (Gen 11:9).  Had it used the word "Babel" one would hear no end of it from the anti-Mormons.

 

In any case, the Hebrew word migdal (from gadol "big, great") can mean either "tower" or "great tower."  There is no competition involved, Gail.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

 

Not a valid point.  I hope you are not resorting to a game like my tower is higher

than yours so my story in my book is more credible than yours :-)

 

"And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach

unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon

the face of the whole earth"

 

Gail

 

I am not playing a measuring game.

 

I can lead a horse to water but I can't make it drink.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I think his point was that the Book of Mormon does not use the late, post-Exilic "Babel" anachronism (Gen 11:9).  Had it used the word "Babel" one would hear no end of it from the anti-Mormons.

 

In any case, the Hebrew word migdal (from gadol "big, great") can mean either "tower" or "great tower."  There is no competition involved, Gail.

Robert,

I thank you. At times I really think I am going crazy as it seems my points are lost all the time. Sometimes, I admit that I am not the best at writing and getting thoughts out there.

 

Sometimes I wonder if I should even try. Enough of the pity party for me. Thanks again.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[strappinglad]

Is it conceivable that the oldest flood stories and tower stories came from an original historical event which was restored by revelation to the writings of the Hebrews? I find the Bible writings more " matter of fact " in tone whereas the Sumerian et al are more fantastical but maybe it is a familiarity problem.

[omni]

I think his point was that the Book of Mormon does not use the late, post-Exilic "Babel" anachronism (Gen 11:9). Had it used the word "Babel" one would hear no end of it from the anti-Mormons.

In any case, the Hebrew word migdal (from gadol "big, great") can mean either "tower" or "great tower." There is no competition involved, Gail.

Is the only point of contention over the name? Do you believe as taught in scripture and confirmed by church leaders that the confounding of the languages occurred at the time of the Great Tower?

[rodheadlee]

I only provided the LDS teachings that they consider it as the Tower of Babel and not some other

tower. Unless you, personally, believe there were two acts of God to confound the language of all

the people.  Whether the sources I provided are false teachings is another matter.  The church in

the past has also identified the location of the Hill Cumorah. It is either true or false teaching.

 

Regards,

Jim

A Hill Cumorah. To the best of my knowledge we have no idea of what Cumorah means or how many Cumorahs there are.

[Gervin]

There are thousands of anachronisms in the biblical text

Thousands? CFR

 

You can see how difficult some people on this board find merely digesting one easy comment on an obvious anachronism.

 

Ugh. I'd like to see your high school English grades.

[Gervin]

Had it used the word "Babel" one would hear no end of it from the anti-Mormons.

Anti-Mormons, atheists, Christians, Jews, Finns, and Red Sox fans all have hundreds of anachronistic BoM words and passages to draw from.  "Babel" would be only a linguistic drop in the ocean.

[TheSkepticChristian]

Anti-Mormons, atheists, Christians, Jews, Finns, and Red Sox fans all have hundreds of anachronistic BoM words and passages to draw from.  "Babel" would be only a linguistic drop in the ocean.

 

and for the Bible too, here is what they say 

 

 

 

• The Bible contains anachronisms. Details attributed to one era actually apply to a much later era. For example, camels, mentioned in Genesis 24:10, were not widely used until after 1000 B.C.E. (Finkelstein and Silberman 2001).
• The Exodus, which should have been a major event, does not appear in Egyptian records. There are no traces in the Sinai that one would expect from forty years of wandering of more than half a million people. And other archaeological evidence contradicts it, showing instead that the Hebrews were a native people (Finkelstein and Silberman 2001; Lazare 2002).

 

 

Here's a short list of some other historical events in the Bible that should be supported by archaeological evidence, but aren't:

• There are no Egyptian records of the events of the Exodus, had they happened as described in the Bible. The confrontation with the Israelites, the natural disasters, the pursuit of the Israelites, and the drowning of the Pharaoh and his army in the Red Sea are all events that could not have escaped the notice of any Egyptian chronicler.
• Joshua's telling the Sun to stop moving across the sky (Joshua 10:12-14) should be recorded in numerous existing chronicles; it would have happened around 1240 BC, when there were scribes at work not only in Egypt and Mesopotamia, but also in ancient Turkey and Crete.
• In the Book of Jonah, we find that Jonah got the people of the Assyrian capital of Nineveh to repent of their sins. This remarkable event is not confirmed anywhere else in the Bible, nor in the chronicles and libraries of Nineveh or any neighboring city.
• The massacre of baby boys ordered by Herod (Matthew 2) is mentioned nowhere else in the Bible, or by any outside historians, some of whom describe Herod in great detail.
• The Star of Bethlehem (Matthew 2) is also mentioned nowhere else in the Bible, and historical evidence contradicts the generally accepted birthdate for Jesus as 4 BC. We know from Roman history that Halley's comet appeared over Rome in 12 BC when the famous commander Marcus Agrippa died, and Chinese astronomical records allege a comet appearing at that time, which might explain a moving, not fixed, star guiding the Wise Men to Bethlehem. It's likely that Matthew's story isn't history but rather was constructed from messianic prophecies, and the Wise Men were added as another legend.[6]
• How could Jesus (according to Luke) be born at a time when a census was ordered by Caesar Augustus, when Quirinius governed Syria and Herod ruled the Jews? Historical evidence says that Herod's rule ended in 4 BC and the census did not occur until 6 AD when Quirinius was governing Syria.[7]

 

 

 

GE 1:3-5, 14-19 There was light ("night and day") before there was a sun. (Note: If there were no sun, there would be no night or day. Also, light from the newly created heavenly bodies seems to have reached the earth instantaneously though it now takes thousands or millions of years.)

GE 1:12, 16 Plants began to grow before there was sunlight.

GE 1:29 Every plant and tree which yield seed are given to us by God as good to eat. (Note: This would include poisonous plants such as hemlock, buckeye pod, nightshade, oleander.)

GE 2:15-23, 3:1-5, 1TI 2:14 Eve was created after Adam had already been given the prohibition about eating the forbidden fruit. Eve believed the serpent (the craftiest of all of God's wild creatures) when he assured her that she would become wise and would not die if she ate the fruit. Eve has been blamed for causing Adam to fall, and ultimately for the fall of mankind. (Note: Prior to eating the forbidden fruit, Adam and Eve would have had no knowledge of right and wrong; they would not have known that it was a sin to disobey God or to obey the serpent. After they ate the forbidden fruit, God placed a guard around the "Tree of Eternal Life" to keep them from eating its fruit. He could have done the same for the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" before Adam and Eve disobeyed. In addition, even though the prohibition regarding the forbidden fruit was made to Adam before Eve came on the scene, Eve has been blamed for the Fall; 1TI 2:14 says: "... Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.")

GE 3:1-5 The serpent speaks human language (presumably Hebrew).

GE 3:14-16 God curses the serpent, Eve, and Adam for what they have done. (Note: This is inconsistent with God's omniscience; God should have known full well, ahead of time, what the outcome would be. Since God created the three as well as the Tree of Knowledge, he is ultimately responsible for the Fall.)

GE 3:14 The serpent eats dust for the rest of his life (by command of God).

GE 4:15 A mark is placed on Cain as a distinctive identifying symbol when there were only three (known) persons on earth.

GE 4:17 Cain builds and populates a whole city in only two generations.

GE 6:4 There were giants on the earth at one time. (Note: No evidence exists to supports this assertion.)

GE 6:5 God is unhappy with the wickedness of man and decides to flood the earth to eliminate mankind. All living things including plants, animals, women and innocent children are also exterminated. (Note: This is like burning down a house to rid it of mice.)

GE 6:15 The size of Noah's Ark was such that there would be about one and a half cubic feet for each pair of the 2,000,000 to 5,000,000 species to be taken aboard.

GE 7:17-19 The flood covered the entire earth at the same time. (Note: There is no evidence of a worldwide flood, but rather of many, widespread, but local floods.)

GE 7:19-20 The flood covered the earth with water fifteen cubits (twenty plus feet) above the highest mountains.(Note: This would require steady, worldwide rainfall at the rate of about 6 inches per minute, 360 inches per hour, 8640 inches per day--for 40 days and nights--so as to cover the entire earth with an endless ocean 5 miles deep, thus burying 29,000 ft. Mt. Everest under 22 ft. of water. How did the author know the depth of the water? Did Noah take soundings? And where has all this water gone?)

GE 8:20 Noah's first recorded action following the flood is to sacrifice one of every clean animal and bird. (Since so few animals were saved, this could be considered rather wasteful and defeating--especially given that the stated purpose of taking the animals aboard the Ark was to keep them alive [GE 6:20]. To see a discussion of the various ways this verse can be interpreted, and in turn the different ways to approach the Bible generally, see addendum.)

GE 8:21 The odor of Noah's sacrifices was pleasing to the Lord.

GE 9:12-16 God first creates the rainbow. (Note: Apparently the laws having to do with refraction of light were null and void prior to this time.)

GE 18:1, 7-8 God eats solid food with Abraham.

GE 30:37-43 Jacob alters the genetic characteristics of cattle by letting them view a striped rod. (Note: His purpose in doing so was to fleece Laban of his cattle.)

GE 32:24-30 God takes part in a wrestling match. He wins by injuring Jacob's hip.

GE 38:27-29 Twins are being delivered. One puts out his hand and the midwife binds it with a scarlet ribbon to identify him as the firstborn. But he draws back his hand, and his brother is born first (thereby obtaining the rights of the firstborn son).

EX 4:24 The Lord sought to kill Moses (one of his own prophets.)

EX 12:30 The Lord kills all the first-born of Egypt and there is not a house where there is not at least one dead. (This means that there was not a house in Egypt that did not include at least one first-born---a most unusual situation.)

EX 12:37, NU 1:45-46 The number of men of military age who take part in the Exodus is given as about 600,000. Allowing for women, children, and older men would probably mean that a total of more than 2,000,000 Israelites left Egypt at a time when the whole population of Egypt was less than 2,000,000.

EX 17:14 God says that he will utterly blot out the remembrance of Amalek. 

DT 25:19 "... you shall blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven; you must not forget." 

(That remembrance is now permanently preserved in the Bible.)

EX 28:34-35 Entering the holy place without wearing bells can result in death.

LE 11:20-21 There are winged creatures (birds or insects) that go around on all fours. (Note: There are no birds that go around on four legs, and all insects have six or eight legs.)

LE 11:6 (States, incorrectly, that the rabbit, or hare, chews its cud.)

LE 14:33-57 God himself believes that a house or clothes can have leprosy and he details the remedy.

LE 14:49-53 The cure for leprosy involves incantations and the blood of a bird.

NU 11:31-33 A "wind from the Lord" brings such an abundance of quail that "he who gathered the least gathered ten homers," or about 62 bushels. Altogether, this would have been enough to fill several thousand boxcars. Unfortunately, it was immediately followed by a great plague (food poisoning?) from the Lord.

NU 22:21-30 A donkey sees an angel, recognizes it as such, and then speaks in human language (presumably Hebrew) to his master.

DT 1:1 Moses speaks to "all" of Israel, perhaps 2,000,000 people (see EX 12:37 above).

DT 2:14 All of the "men of war"--some 600,000--who left Egypt in the Exodus were dead just thirty-eight years later. (See EX 12:37 above.)

DT 7:15 Moses promises his people that the Lord will take away all sickness.

DT 25:5-9 A man has an obligation to produce a child with his brother's widow. If he refuses, his sister-in-law is to spit in his face in front of the elders.

JS 10:12-14 God obliges Joshua by making the sun and moon stand still (so that he can finish his battle by daylight).

JG 3:21-22 (KJV) "Ehud ... took the dagger from his right thigh, and thrust it into his belly. And the haft also went in after the blade; and the fat closed upon the blade, so that he could not draw the dagger out of his belly; and the dirt came out."

JG 7:12 The camels were without number as the sand of the sea.

JG 15:15 Samson slays 1000 men with the jawbone of an ***.

JG 16:17-22 Samson loses his strength as a result of having his head shaved. (Note: This is not psychosomatic since he began to lose his strength while he was still asleep.)

JG 20:16 There were seven hundred men who were left handed and could sling a stone at a hair and not miss.

1SA 5:8-9 God causes "emerods" (hemorrhoids or tumors) amongst the Philistines (who have captured the Ark of the Covenant, where God was thought to reside).

1SA 13:5 The Philistines had "... troops like the sand on the seashore in multitude."

1SA 16:14-23 Evil spirits can come from God (and be exorcised with God's help).

1KI 3:12, 16-28 Solomon, the wisest man that ever lived, can think of no better way to determine the natural mother of a child in dispute than to threaten to divide the child in half. (Note: This does not take into account the possibility of mental derangement on the part of the natural mother.)

1KI 4:29 God gave Solomon wisdom as measureless as the sand on the seashore.

1KI 6:2, 2CH 3:3 Solomon's temple was only about ninety feet long by thirty feet wide, yet: 

  1KI 5:15-16 153,300 persons were employed to build it. 

  1KI 6:38 It took seven years to build. 

  1CH 22:14 ~7,500,000 lbs. of gold and ~75,000,000 lbs. of silver were used. 

  1CH 23:4 24,000 supervisors and 6,000 officials and judges were employed to manage it. (Note: Inasmuch as there seems to be uncertainty as to the exact weight of the biblical talent, some estimates place the weight of gold at more than 13,000,000 lbs. and the weight of silver at more than 116,000,000 lbs.)

1KI 10:24 The whole world sought an audience with Solomon to hear his wisdom.

1KI 17:2-6 The Lord commands ravens to bring bread and meat to Elijah.

1KI 18:33-38 Fire consumes wet wood, stones, and dust, and "licks up" water.

2KI 6:5-7 An iron axe head "swims" (or floats).

2CH 9:23 All the kings on earth sought the presence of Solomon to hear his wisdom.

2KI 13:21 A man who is being buried comes alive after touching the bones of Elisha.

2KI 16:2, 20, 18:1-2 Ahaz was thirty-six years old when he died. His twenty-five-year-old son Hezekiah succeeded him. Thus Ahaz was a ten or eleven year old father.

2KI 19:35 (KJV) "...the angel of the Lord...smote...an hundred four score and five thousand: and when they arose early in the morning ... they were all dead...."

2KI 20:11 The shadow on a sun dial moves backwards.

2CH 7:5, 8-9 Solomon sacrificed 22,000 oxen and 120,000 sheep in one week. This is 845+ animals per hour, 14+ animals per minute, for seven days straight.

2CH 21:20, 22:1-2 Ahaziah was forty-two when he became king; he succeeded his father, who died at the age of forty. Thus, Ahaziah was two years older than his father. [Note: Some translations use "twenty-two" here in an attempt to rectify this discrepancy. The Hebrew is clear, however, that 2CH 22:2 is 42. The Hebrew words involved are Strong's H705 and H8147, "forty" and "two," respectively.]

2CH 13:3 Abijah sent 400,000 men into battle against Jeroboam's 800,000 men. This is a total of 1,200,000 men, all of them Jews. (Note: Assuming one additional woman per man of fighting age, plus two persons per man [either older persons or children] would put the Jewish population of the surrounding area at a minimum of 4,800,000 persons; hardly feasible.)

2CH 13:17 500,000 Israelites are slain in a single battle. (Note: This is more than were lost in any single battle of World War II, and even exceeds the number of deaths that resulted from the dropping of the atomic bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima.)

ES 6:6, JB 19:27, PS 7:9, 16:7, 73:21, PR 23:7, 16, IS 10:7, JE 11:20, 17:10, 20:12, MT 9:4, LK 2:19,9:47, AC 8:22, RO 10:9-10, HE 4:12, RE 2:23 (See KJV especially.) Thought occurs in the heart. The kidneys ("reins") are the seat of conscience.(Note: This is not merely a poetic use of these terms, as is now claimed. In early times, it was actually believed that various body organs other than the brain were responsible for our thoughts, feelings, actions and the like. The heart was believed to be the seat of thought processes and beliefs, while the kidneys were thought to be the seat of conscience.)

JB 9:6 (KJV) God shakes the earth out of its place and makes its pillars tremble.

JB 9:7 God can make the sun not rise and seal up the stars.

JB 28:28, PS 111:10, PR 1:7, 9:10, 15:33, IS 33:6 Fear of the Lord is equated with obtaining wisdom.

PS 121:6 It is apparently possible to suffer moonstroke as well as sunstroke.

PR 19:23, 22:4 Fear of the Lord brings freedom from trouble(s). Humility and fear of the Lord bring wealth, honor, and life.

PR 20:30 Blows that wound cleanse away evil.

IS 30:26 The moon will someday be as bright as the sun now is. (Note: Until relatively recent times, the moon and the planets were thought to give off their own light.)

IS 38:8 The shadow of the Sun is made to move backwards.

IS 40:22 The earth is a circle. (Note: The earth is really a sphere, not a circle, and this verse does not imply a sphere as some believers like to infer.)

JE 20:7, EZ 14:9 Jeremiah says that the Lord deceived his own prophet. God himself says that he deceives his own prophets in order to get rid of them.

EZ 37:1-10 Dry bones come alive.

AM 8:9 The Sun will be made to set at noon in "clear day."

MT 4:8 There is a high mountain from which all the kingdoms of the world can be seen. (Note: This implies a flat earth.)

MT 4:23-24, 9:32-33, 12:22, 17:14-18, MK 1:23-26, 32-34, 5:2-16, 9:17-29, 16:9, LK 11:14, 4:33-35, 8:2,27-36, 9:38-42, AC 8:7, 16:16-18 Both physical and mental illness are caused by demon possession and can be cured by exorcism.

MT 7:7-8, LK 11:9-10 Ask and it will be given. Seek and you will find. Everyone who asks, receives.

MT 13:41 Jesus will send his angels to purge his kingdom of evildoers and sin. (Note: How did evildoers get into his kingdom in the first place?)

MT 17:20, 21:21, MK 9:23, 10:27, 11:23, LK 17:6 Faith can move mountains. Nothing is impossible if you have faith [as small as] a grain of mustard seed.

MT 18:19 If two [believers] agree about anything they ask, God will do it for them.

MT 21:22, MK 11:24 Whatever you ask in prayer, if you have faith, you will receive it.

MT 24:29-30 Although the sun and the moon have been darkened and the stars have fallen from heaven, there is still enough light to see.

MT 26:52 All who take the sword will perish by it.

MT 27:52-53 The bodies of dead saints arise and go in force in the city.

MK 11:12-14, 20-21 Jesus curses a fig tree for not bearing fruit out of season. (Note: Rather than cause the fig tree to wither and to bear fruit never again, he could have performed a miracle and made it bear fruit even out of season.)

MK 16:17-18 Those who believe are able to handle snakes and drink any deadly poison without suffering harm. (Note: Many unfortunate believers have died as a result of handling snakes and/or drinking poison; this kind of assertion negates the Bible as a useful guidebook for life. It should also be noted that the oldest manuscripts of Mark end at MK 16:8; as the footnotes to The New Oxford Annotated Bible put it, verses 9-20 cannot have been part of the original text of Mark.)

LK 1:39-42 The fetus in Elizabeth's womb jumps for joy when Elizabeth hears Mary (who is pregnant with Jesus).

LK 22:28-30 Jesus assigns each of his twelve disciples (including Judas, his betrayer) a place (or throne) in his kingdom.

JN 6:24-30 A large crowd of persons (probably several thousand) asks Jesus for a sign so that they might see and believe. This occurs immediately following the Feeding of the Multitude which should have been one of the greatest miracles and most convincing signs of all time.

JN 8:51 Jesus says: "... if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."

JN 12:34 A crowd of persons (speaking in unison?) asks Jesus a thirty word question.

JN 16:23 Jesus says: "Whatever you ask in my name, my Father will give you."

RO 10:17-18, CN 1:23 The gospel had already been preached to every living creature even in Paul's time.

2CO 12:2 There are at least three heavens.

2CO 12:4 There are things which cannot be told--things which man cannot utter.

GA 1:8-9 An angel (from God?) who preaches a gospel contrary to that of Paul will incur Paul's wrath.

1TI 5:11 Younger widows want to marry because their sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ.

1TI 6:10 The love of money is the root of all evil(s). (Note: Some translations emend the text to read, "The love of money is the root of all kinds of evils," or something similar, in an attempt to ameliorate an obvious problem. Those additional words are not there in the Greek of the oldest and most reliable manuscripts.)

TS 1:12 "One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretans are always liars ...." (Figure the logic of this verse--if you can!)

HE 7:1-3 Melchizedek had no mother or father, no beginning or end.

RE 14:1-4 Heaven is to be inhabited in part by 144,000 virgin men who have not been "defiled" by women.

RE 21:16 The city of New Jerusalem (where the residents of heaven reside) is only about 1500 miles square.

Edited May 19, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian