Motes And Beams And Other People

[Duncan]

So, we know about Christ's teaching about Motes and Beams and being able to see clearly. My question is all of us have motes and sometimes beams but does having those prevent us from legitimately saying to someone that what you're doing is not right, can we just allow people to do whatever because we have our own stuff to work out. How do we deal with our own stuff yet see clearly to help others? For example, I have my fair share of problems but let's say I know a guy in Branch Pres. who drinks, should I just ignore his problem and let him do his own thing just so I can say well, I have my own own beams to deal with, but what if I do try to help and turns around and says well, are you perfect? what do you think?

[Uncle Dale]

So, we know about Christ's teaching about Motes and Beams and being able to see clearly. My question is all of us have motes and sometimes beams but does having those prevent us from legitimately saying to someone that what you're doing is not right, can we just allow people to do whatever because we have our own stuff to work out. How do we deal with our own stuff yet see clearly to help others? For example, I have my fair share of problems but let's say I know a guy in Branch Pres. who drinks, should I just ignore his problem and let him do his own thing just so I can say well, I have my own own beams to deal with, but what if I do try to help and turns around and says well, are you perfect? what do you think?

 

I suppose that all of us are so humanly imperfect that

we constantly risk misjudging others.

 

Had I been a sincere, well-wishing Christian attending

the trial of Galileo, I might well have shouted to the

guards, "Burn the heretic!"

 

And, at the same time, I might have given up my sons

to become monks in some dubious monastery, where

young fellows were routinely secretly abused.

 

All the while, praying for guidance and really wanting to

do the "best thing" possible.

 

After noticing, throughout human history, the tendency

for sincere, believing religionists to do absolutely the

worst things possible, I try to exercise some reasonable

caution in prejudging others -- even if their actions

appear to be evil and malicious. Perhaps I'm right, in

obtaining an initial first impression. But a little caution, 

before shouting out "Arrest the villain!," may be advisable.

 

UD

[strappinglad]

Some actions are open for all to see. Others are deeply hidden. Are the actions likely to bring the church into disrepute? Are they likely to be a stumbling block to others, particularly the youth? If so, you have a duty to speak to the person privately about your concerns. But be very sure that you are on firm ground and not on the shifting sands of rumor.

[Tacenda]

I suppose that all of us are so humanly imperfect that

we constantly risk misjudging others.

Had I been a sincere, well-wishing Christian attending

the trial of Galileo, I might well have shouted to the

guards, "Burn the heretic!"

And, at the same time, I might have given up my sons

to become monks in some dubious monastery, where

young fellows were routinely secretly abused.

All the while, praying for guidance and really wanting to

do the "best thing" possible.

After noticing, throughout human history, the tendency

for sincere, believing religionists to do absolutely the

worst things possible, I try to exercise some reasonable

caution in prejudging others -- even if their actions

appear to be evil and malicious. Perhaps I'm right, in

obtaining an initial first impression. But a little caution,

before shouting out "Arrest the villain!," may be advisable.

UD

I was thinking about this just the other day. How easily our judgements can be mistaken and so wrong just from seeing something that isn't there or needs the full picture to understand it. Course you said it so much better.

[Storm Rider]

I find a distinct difference at times when I judge others to condemn them and when I judge the actions of others as unhelpful to their own happiness. 

 

Leaders of the Church have a higher standard of "performance" in living gospel principles simply because they can affect so many LDS.  If you are confused about something in the actions of a leader, take him aside privately and ask.  It does not matter what his answer is except to make something more clear to you as an individual.  He must answer and be in communication with his leaders who interview him. 

 

After you have asked him and he has responded or not, then the issue is closed for you.  You are not then free to discuss the issue with others, unless it is something serious. At some point it is appropriate to talk to the Bishop and let him do the asking.

[The Nehor]

The D&C gives the counsel on how to reprove others. The Holy Ghost has to tell you to, you have to do it with sharpness (i.e. quickly and decisively and not drawing it out) and then you have to show an increase of love (meaning you better not be doing this if you do not have any love in the first place) so he does not judge you to be an enemy.

 

I generally find it easier not to reprove.

[readstoomuch]

Nehor beat me to it. I think the fact that you are asking the way you are means that you most likely don't come across holier than thou. Finally, you have to have the right and appropriate opportunity. I think prayer and living the gospel brings those opportunities if they are meant to be.

[Storm Rider]

Naw, no prayer needed in this instance. Just stand up in Fast & Testimony meeting and accuse the 1st counselor of drinking so much whiskey that he was not able to drive home most Friday evenings.  You get drama, self-righteous pomposity, and maybe a burning at the stake of the evil one.  Maybe have a rock to throw at him when you are done with the accusations.  He must either assimilate or be cast out/destroyed whichever is easiest so that we can go home to watch football on TV.  

Edited May 4, 2015 by Storm Rider

[sjdawg]

Some actions are open for all to see. Others are deeply hidden. Are the actions likely to bring the church into disrepute? Are they likely to be a stumbling block to others, particularly the youth? If so, you have a duty to speak to the person privately about your concerns. But be very sure that you are on firm ground and not on the shifting sands of rumor.

 

Why are we always so worried about what might "bring the church into disrepute"?   It seems as though the individual should be more important that something intangible that the churches reputation.   I had a friend once who got himself into trouble and when discovered attempted suicide.  His wife was furious that his Bishop seemed to more concerned about pondering whether or not his actions reflected poorly on the church as an institution than he was about my friends physical and mental health.  

[sjdawg]

Naw, no prayer needed in this instance. Just stand up in Fast & Testimony meeting a accuse the 1st counselor of drinking so much whiskey that he is not able to drive home most Friday evenings.  You get drama, self-righteous pomposity, and maybe a burning at the stake of the evil one.  Maybe have a rock to throw at him when you are done with the accusations.  He must either assimilate or be cast out/destroyed whichever is easiest so that we can be home to watch football on TV.  

 

haha.  I was at a testimony meeting once where an elderly man got up and talked about a recent health situation that put him in the hospital.  He went out of his way to thank all of the people who cared enough to visit him.  Then he looked straight at the Bishop and said "Bishop I guess you were busy".   Our Bishop was furious and embarrassed and told our HPGL to go and tell the member how inappropriate that was.

[sjdawg]

So, we know about Christ's teaching about Motes and Beams and being able to see clearly. My question is all of us have motes and sometimes beams but does having those prevent us from legitimately saying to someone that what you're doing is not right, can we just allow people to do whatever because we have our own stuff to work out. How do we deal with our own stuff yet see clearly to help others? For example, I have my fair share of problems but let's say I know a guy in Branch Pres. who drinks, should I just ignore his problem and let him do his own thing just so I can say well, I have my own own beams to deal with, but what if I do try to help and turns around and says well, are you perfect? what do you think?

His problem is his problem.  Your problems are your problems.   You could assume that no one else in the Bishopric (or stake presidency) knows about his issue but that isn't necessarily true.  Unless it has a direct impact on you I don't think it is your place to bring it up.   

[Spammer]

In my tradition (Eastern Orthodox), we strive to obey the command of Christ to judge not by striving to compare ourselves to God alone during our journey to the Kingdom of God.  God is the standard, not my neighbor or my enemy, who I am commanded to pray for. If we must counsel another who is in sin, we strive to do so in love, knowing that we are also sinners in need of mercy.  This is the basis of our prayer life, at home and at church.

 

Every year during Lent we recall the Parable of the Publican and the Pharisee and are encouraged to be like the Publican, standing at the back of the temple, heads bowed acknowledging our unworthiness, and ask God for mercy.  At this time, we also pray the Lenten prayer of St. Ephrem the Syrian while making prostrations: "O Lord and Master of my life, take from me the spirit of sloth, despair, lust of power, and idle talk. But give rather the spirit of chastity, humility, patience, and love to Thy servant.Yea, O Lord and King, grant me to see my own transgressions, and not to judge my brother, for blessed art Thou, unto ages of ages. Amen."

 

Throughout the year, we say the Lord's Prayer every day in the morning and evening: "Our Father, who art in heaven,hallowed be thy name;thy kingdom come;thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses,as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from the evil one."

 

At every Divine Liturgy, before we approach the chalice to receive communion (take the sacrament), we recite in unison: "I believe, O Lord, and I confess that Thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the Living God, Who camest into the world to save sinners, of whom I am first. I believe also that this is truly Thine own pure Body, and that this is truly Thine own precious Blood. Therefore I pray Thee: have mercy upon me and forgive my transgressions both voluntary and involuntary, of word and of deed, of knowledge and of ignorance. And make me worthy to partake without condemnation of Thy most pure Mysteries, for the remission of my sins, and unto life everlasting. Amen. Of Thy Mystical Supper, O Son of God, accept me today as a communicant; for I will not speak of Thy Mystery to Thine enemies, neither like Judas will I give Thee a kiss; but like the thief will I confess Thee: Remember me, O Lord in Thy Kingdom. May the communion of Thy Holy Mysteries be neither to my judgment, nor to my condemnation, O Lord, but to the healing of soul and body. Amen."

 

That's how we would approach the issue brought up in the OP.  Just my 2 cents.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Spammer

[Duncan]

In my tradition (Eastern Orthodox), we strive to obey the command of Christ to judge not by striving to compare ourselves to God alone during our journey to the Kingdom God.  God is the standard, not my neighbor or my enemy, who I am commanded to pray for. If we must counsel another who is in sin, we strive to do so in love, knowing that we are also sinners in need of mercy.  This is the basis of our prayer life, at home and at church.

 

Every year during Lent we recall the Parable of the Publican and the Pharisee and are encouraged to be like the Publican, standing at the back of the temple, heads bowed acknowledging our unworthiness, and ask God for mercy.  At this time, we also pray the Lenten prayer of St. Ephrem the Syrian while making prostrations: "O Lord and Master of my life, take from me the spirit of sloth, despair, lust of power, and idle talk. But give rather the spirit of chastity, humility, patience, and love to Thy servant.Yea, O Lord and King, grant me to see my own transgressions, and not to judge my brother, for blessed art Thou, unto ages of ages. Amen."

 

Throughout the year, we say the Lord's Prayer every day in the morning and evening: "Our Father, who art in heaven,hallowed be thy name;thy kingdom come;thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses,as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from the evil one."

 

At every Divine Liturgy, before we approach the chalice to receive communion (take the sacrament), we recite in unison: "I believe, O Lord, and I confess that Thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the Living God, Who camest into the world to save sinners, of whom I am first. I believe also that this is truly Thine own pure Body, and that this is truly Thine own precious Blood. Therefore I pray Thee: have mercy upon me and forgive my transgressions both voluntary and involuntary, of word and of deed, of knowledge and of ignorance. And make me worthy to partake without condemnation of Thy most pure Mysteries, for the remission of my sins, and unto life everlasting. Amen. Of Thy Mystical Supper, O Son of God, accept me today as a communicant; for I will not speak of Thy Mystery to Thine enemies, neither like Judas will I give Thee a kiss; but like the thief will I confess Thee: Remember me, O Lord in Thy Kingdom. May the communion of Thy Holy Mysteries be neither to my judgment, nor to my condemnation, O Lord, but to the healing of soul and body. Amen."

 

That's how we would approach the issue brought up in the OP.  Just my 2 cents.

 

thank you! what if we found out some priest in our respective churches was abusing someone,should we just do nothing?

[ALarson]

thank you! what if we found out some priest in our respective churches was abusing someone,should we just do nothing?

Hey Duncan,

I think that's entirely different than knowing someone in leadership is drinking.  Someone is getting hurt.

 

Now, if the person who is drinking is driving youth in the church as part of their calling while drunk (or even after a few drinks), that also is different.  I would speak up then. 

 

But, I'm just one who tries to mind my own business, so maybe I'm wrong here?

[Duncan]

Hey Duncan,

I think that's entirely different than knowing someone in leadership is drinking.  Someone is getting hurt.

 

Now, if the person who is drinking is driving youth in the church as part of their calling while drunk (or even after a few drinks), that also is different.  I would speak up then. 

 

But, I'm just one who tries to mind my own business, so maybe I'm wrong here?

 

yeah, that's fair. I know 4 elders went over to this guy's house for dinner and he had alcohol on his breath and he wanted to show them his gun collection and they politely declined! hahahahaha! 

[Uncle Dale]

...

 

Leaders of the Church have a higher standard of "performance" in living gospel principles...

 

I heard much the same thing during my many years with

the RLDS/CoC...

 

"When you live a life as pure and righteous as that of our

founder, then you begin to criticize priesthood leaders..."

 

or

 

"Sister Emma Smith is the best possible role model for

young ladies now in the Church. Her moral standards

'were so high that she was called the "Elect Lady'..."

 

At some point, all that striving for holy perfection,

though unquestioning obedience and attempting to

live up to the sinlessness of the Three Nephites, or

of Peter, James and John, began to look like a

Pharisaical dependence upon self-righteousness.

 

But, perhaps the basic sentiment was well-meant.

 

When people like myself are as perfect as the

Holder of the Keys to the Seventh and Final

Dispensation of the Everlasting Gospel --- THEN --

(and only then) will we have the Divine discernment

necessary to judge alleged sinners.

 

At least this was the lesson I was taught for many

years -- that at the Last Judgement it will be President

Joseph Smith, Jr., who stands at the right hand of

Christ, passing final condemnation (or mercy) upon

the quick and the dead.

 

UD

ps -- I no longer believe the doctrine as above stated, however

[ALarson]

yeah, that's fair. I know 4 elders went over to this guy's house for dinner and he had alcohol on his breath and he wanted to show them his gun collection and they politely declined! hahahahaha! 

Wow

 

It sounds like others are aware that he's drinking too.  Maybe your Bishop knows as well but has just chosen to keep him in as his counselor?  Also, maybe he's working on the problem and the Bishop knows about that too (repentance).

 

Tough situation, but you sound like a guy that would not offend him if you approached him to talk.  How well do you know each other?

[strappinglad]

Why are we always so worried about what might "bring the church into disrepute"?   It seems as though the individual should be more important that something intangible that the churches reputation.   I had a friend once who got himself into trouble and when discovered attempted suicide.  His wife was furious that his Bishop seemed to more concerned about pondering whether or not his actions reflected poorly on the church as an institution than he was about my friends physical and mental health.

We are not ALWAYS so worried about it, but it is one criterion that should be considered. If we use the analogy of a sports team, there are things that an individual might do in the privacy of their home that just reflect upon themselves. But, if done in public with the team jersey on and bragging about how they are a member of the team etc. that will reflect upon the entire team and will result in greater censure.

[Spammer]

thank you! what if we found out some priest in our respective churches was abusing someone,should we just do nothing?

 

If the abuse warrants calling the police, then we make the call!  We also pray for the priest and ask the Lord to have mercy on him and heal him, and strive not to judge him.  We are all sinners in need of healing and mercy.  And, since we're Orthodox, we also ask the Most Holy Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary and all the saints to pray for him and intercede with God on his behalf. 

 

We wouldn't intervene if the priest was drinking, though, 'cause alkyhol is fine and dandy with us - unless the priest is drinking and driving with kids in the car or is an alcoholic at risk of harming himself.  The severity of damage to himself or others would govern the nature of the intervention, I suppose, as in anything.  But at all times we always try to remember that we're all sinners, even the first of sinners.

 

About how we view priests and alcohol, I'll tell you a story.  At Pascha (Easter) last month, we finished the Vesperal Liturgy and Divine Liturgy at 1:30 am and then ended our Lenten Fast with a feast.  Our priest was just about to bless the food when he said "Wait a minute, hold on!", went to the freezer, pulled out a bottle of vodka, placed it on the table and said "Now we can pray!"  And he prayed.  We all feasted in the joy of our Lord at his glorious Resurrection and some of us partook of a bit of the vodka in the church.    

Edited May 4, 2015 by Spammer

[Duncan]

Wow

 

It sounds like others are aware that he's drinking too.  Maybe your Bishop knows as well but has just chosen to keep him in as his counselor?  Also, maybe he's working on the problem and the Bishop knows about that too (repentance).

 

Tough situation, but you sound like a guy that would not offend him if you approached him to talk.  How well do you know each other?

 

he's a guy i've known for years and years but I wouldn't say we are pals or anything and I would be surprised if he knew my name, he would know my folks though. 

[Sleeper Cell]

So, we know about Christ's teaching about Motes and Beams and being able to see clearly. My question is all of us have motes and sometimes beams but does having those prevent us from legitimately saying to someone that what you're doing is not right, can we just allow people to do whatever because we have our own stuff to work out. How do we deal with our own stuff yet see clearly to help others? 

This scripture will come in handy the next time my eye doctor mentions cataract surgery

[The Nehor]

Leaders of the Church have a higher standard of "performance" in living gospel principles simply because they can affect so many LDS.

This is something many believe but it is unscriptural. I see no reason to believe the Judgement Bar will be more harsh for a prophet then a Hymnbook Coordinator or that the standards are any different.

[Avatar4321]

Do you have stewardship over him?