Was Jesus The Son Of God Before The Earth Was Created?

[thesometimesaint]

Answer me first and I'll answer you.

 

Yes God the Father was. We just don't know a whole lot about it.  Now answer mine.

Edited May 28, 2015 by thesometimesaint

[JLHPROF]

So God used to be a man like us and became a god?

 

Absolutely, 100%, correct, accurate, agreed.

[mfbukowski]

Well here is the truth: "If men do not comprehend the character of God, they do not comprehend themselves."  

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1971/04/the-king-follett-sermon?lang=eng

 

 

It's not all that difficult.Our entire existence is patterned after Heavenly Father's. An uneducated carpenter like me can understand it.

Education can be more of a burden than benefit in some matters, and this is one example. Absractions can create confusion and little else. The gospel should be based on simple and practical actions, work and family. The pioneers understood that but we often miss that simple fact.

[Storm Rider]

So God used to be a man like us and became a god?

 

Which God are you talking about?  The Father or the Son? 

 

The Son stated John 5:19:

 

Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. 

 

LDS interpret this scripture literally, Jesus does nothing except what he has seen the Father do.  Of course, the issue is when did Jesus observe the Father act in similar situations?  For me it is easy to understand, based on the Bible, why LDS believe that God the Father was once as Jesus Christ was.

 

I personally do not believe that the Father was ever simply a man; he is and has always been God just as Jesus has always been his Son.  Maybe better said, I simply don't try to understand further than what is stated in John.  I know that God the Father lives and is God; I don't feel the need to go beyond that.

[mfbukowski]

Hello Rod, this statement has always been a bit problematic for me. I have never felt that I comprehend God; however, I believe in his perfect holiness and/or righteousness. As I read this statement and limit the definition of character to God being holy then I have no problems with the statement. However, if I broaden the definition to include a must broader meaning then there is a sense of being overwhelmed and an acknowledgement that this mortal existence prevents any of us from having a full understanding of God.

Of course, I could just admit that I have a limited understanding of most things and call it good.

That is the same point I was trying to make above. Edited May 28, 2015 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

Which God are you talking about? The Father or the Son?

The Son stated John 5:19:

Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

LDS interpret this scripture literally, Jesus does nothing except what he has seen the Father do. Of course, the issue is when did Jesus observe the Father act in similar situations? For me it is easy to understand, based on the Bible, why LDS believe that God the Father was once as Jesus Christ was.

I personally do not believe that the Father was ever simply a man; he is and has always been God just as Jesus has always been his Son. Maybe better said, I simply don't try to understand further than what is stated in John. I know that God the Father lives and is God; I don't feel the need to go beyond that.

nevermind. Read your email notification. I should not have said that here. Edited May 28, 2015 by mfbukowski

[JLHPROF]

I personally do not believe that the Father was ever simply a man; he is and has always been God just as Jesus has always been his Son. 

 

And I disagree with this.

But isn't that the point of this thread.  We all seem to see God differently and we all assume that our vision is the truth.

[coolrok7]

Jesus as God (in the Godhead) and only Him took on a body of flesh, blood, bone, a man in the womb of the Virgin Mary (Luke 1, Phillipians 2)

The Father, Holy Spirit remain as they are, Spirit in existence. Their nature as Jesus' nature is Deity which was not changed while having a physical, glorified form as the result of resurrection. His physical form though is not Deity.

Per Biblical teaching.

Edited May 28, 2015 by coolrok7

[JLHPROF]

Jesus as God (in the Godhead) and only Him took on a body of flesh, blood, bone, a man in the womb of the Virgin Mary (Luke 1, Phillipians 2)

The Father, Holy Spirit remain as they are, Spirit in existence. Their nature as Jesus' nature is Deity which was not changed while having a physical, glorified form as the result of resurrection. His physical form though is not Deity.

Per Biblical teaching.

 

Not Biblical at all.

[halconero]

His physical form though is not Deity.

 

Ooohhh, if you're into ancient gnostic thought I have some Gospels of Thomas, Mary Magdalene, the writings of Philo, and some other anti-material literature to offer you. All hail the demiurge!

[mfbukowski]

So now only Jesus' spirit is God,but his body is something else somewhere else I guess even though he is resurrected in heaven,and yes he is still of the same substance and being as the father of the Son. Very clear. I get it now.

But wait it is supposed to be a mystery beyond language, so why are we still talking about it?

This just gets more confusing by the minute.

Edited May 28, 2015 by mfbukowski

[Anakin7]

    Collossians 2:9  Everything that makes Jesus GOD [Just like His Father and The Holy Ghost - TheTrue GOD Nature] resides in his Bodily/Corporeal Body [soma] = just exactly as his Father.

 

    In His Eternal Debt/Grace

              Anakin7

[coolrok7]

When it comes to God, I don't use the mystery argument.

It is a given to me that as a finite human being God is way above me in the sense of completely understanding but I can still accept what it is He requires for receiving eternal life not earned, merited, or worked for as in the Mormonism of Joseph Smith.

One of the stated mysteries is Christ in us (Colossians 1:27 for example).

If one eats a loaf of bread, one doesn't become a loaf of bread. It's the nutrition that the body retains for its health. Bread is the form the nutrients are in.

The two natures of Jesus are separate but united and separate at death. Joined back together at the resurrection in which we will be like Him, His glorified body which is not Deity.

[Anakin7]

   In response to coolroks postby comment regarding Joseph Smith - Eternal Life is obtained by True Grace [charis] by way of True Faith [pistis].

   And this thread is not about Salvation, start a new one to discuss this I would suggest.

    In His Eternal Debt/Grace

                Anakin7

Edited May 28, 2015 by Anakin7

[Anakin7]

    His Glorified Body - soma is not his Diety ?, sounds gnostic/docetic to me. James/John/Paul confronted this .

 

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

             Anakin7

[Storm Rider]

Jesus as God (in the Godhead) and only Him took on a body of flesh, blood, bone, a man in the womb of the Virgin Mary (Luke 1, Phillipians 2)

The Father, Holy Spirit remain as they are, Spirit in existence. Their nature as Jesus' nature is Deity which was not changed while having a physical, glorified form as the result of resurrection. His physical form though is not Deity.

Per Biblical teaching.

 

Cool, Luke 1 and Phillipians 2 have nothing to do with defining God as only Spirit and do not conflict with the verse I shared in John 5.  There are some other scriptures that will get where you want to go, but these two chapters are not it.

 

You are attempting to cherry pick and not taking the scriptures in context.  As others have stated you might want to rethink what is and is not Jesus - he is one being and he is Son of God and second member of the Godhead....if we are going to follow the Biblical teaching.  

 

You still ignored my comments in #429.  I can understand you desire not to engage in a discussion; however, attempting to "teach" us something goes no where, particularly when it comes to these types of topics.  We just know the scriptures better than most.  That's not pride or bragging, but just a statement of fact.  

 

If you are going to teach, or witness, to LDS it is better to go slow, pick a single topic and stay on topic.  Listen to responses and then respond.  If we can get to a point where we are simply mutually exchanging why we believe what we believe then we are more likely to both learn something of value.  

 

Enjoy your day.

[teddyaware]

Cool, Luke 1 and Phillipians 2 have nothing to do with defining God as only Spirit and do not conflict with the verse I shared in John 5.  There are some other scriptures that will get where you want to go, but these two chapters are not it.

 

You are attempting to cherry pick and not taking the scriptures in context.  As others have stated you might want to rethink what is and is not Jesus - he is one being and he is Son of God and second member of the Godhead....if we are going to follow the Biblical teaching.  

 

You still ignored my comments in #429.  I can understand you desire not to engage in a discussion; however, attempting to "teach" us something goes no where, particularly when it comes to these types of topics.  We just know the scriptures better than most.  That's not pride or bragging, but just a statement of fact.  

 

If you are going to teach, or witness, to LDS it is better to go slow, pick a single topic and stay on topic.  Listen to responses and then respond.  If we can get to a point where we are simply mutually exchanging why we believe what we believe then we are more likely to both learn something of value.  

 

Enjoy your day.

 

Hi Storm:

 

I've brought up this point before, but for the reasons I will outline below I find it intensely interesting that Paul refers to the resurrected Christ as a "spirit." Here's the quote:

 

 

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown incorruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (1 Corinthians 15)

 

So here we have no less an authority than the apostle Paul testifying to the saints that the glorious, powerful, and incorruptible "spiritual body" of Christ is in reality "a life-giving (quickening) spirit." Could it be in some specialized sense -- one not commonly understood in the Church today -- an exalted, resurrected celestial body of flesh and bone can actually be understood to be a form of spirit? The prophet Amulek seems to indicate this could very well be so when he says the following:

 

45 Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, that is from death, even from the first death unto life, that they can die no more; their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal, that they can no more see corruption. (Alma 11)

 

Here we have Amulek testifying that the entirety of resurrected body will become "spiritual." Note he doesn't say the resurrected body will be an eternally unified amalgam of coarse matter blended with spirit matter (as we are now) but that "the whole" of the resurrected "system" will in some miraculous manner become spiritual.

 

The implications of these passages of scripture are amazing for the Latter-day Saints: First, these verses could provide powerful scriptural evidence that spirit can be tangible and material! Second, the declaration that God the Father is a spirit doesn't necessarily have mean he is not tangible material in nature! If Christ can be "a quickening spirit' and still have a tangible body, why not the Father as well?

 

Finally, I realized the implications of these verses many years ago, and thought I was likely one of only of very few LDS Church members who understood their importance to the Church. But then I read an essay by an LDS Church scholar (wish I could remember his name) who said all the same things I said above. I'll do a search and see if I can find that essay.

 

All the best, Teddy

 

Edited to add: The above perspective can also help us to understand why the Lectures On Faith says God the Father is a personage of "Spirit."

Edited May 29, 2015 by teddyaware

[JLHPROF]

Hi Storm:

 

I've brought up this point before, but for the reasons I will outline below I find it intensely interesting that Paul refers to the resurrected Christ as a "spirit." Here's the quote:

 

 

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown incorruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (1 Corinthians 15)

 

So here we have no less an authority than the apostle Paul testifying to the saints that the glorious, powerful, and incorruptible "spiritual body" of Christ is in reality "a life-giving (quickening) spirit." Could it be that in some specialized sense -- one not commonly understood in the Church today -- that an exalted, resurrected celestial body of flesh and bone can actually be understood to be a form of spirit? The prophet Amulek seems to indicate this could very well be so when he says the following:

 

45 Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, that is from death, even from the first death unto life, that they can die no more; their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal, that they can no more see corruption. (Alma 11)

 

Here we have Amulek testifying that the entirety of resurrected body will become "spiritual." Note he doesn't say the resurrected body will be an eternally unified amalgam of coarse matter blended with spirit matter (as we are now) but that "the whole" of the resurrected "system" will in some miraculous manner become spiritual.

 

The implications of these passages of scripture are amazing for the Latter-day Saints: First, these verses could provide powerful scriptural evidence that spirit can be tangible and material! Second, the declaration that God the Father is a spirit doesn't necessarily have mean he is not tangible material in nature! If Christ can be "a quickening spirit' and still have a tangible body, why not the Father as well?

 

Finally, I realized the implications of these verses many years ago, and thought I was likely one of only of very few LDS Church members who understood their importance to the Church. But then I read an essay by an LDS Church scholar (wish I could remember his name) who said all the same things I said above. I'll do a search and see if I can find that essay.

 

All the best, Teddy

 

Edited to add: The above perspective can also help us to understand why the Lectures On Faith says God the Father is a personage of "Spirit."

 

This can also be applied to the Holy Ghost.

 

Joseph taught in April 1843 that:

"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us."

 

but in August of the same year he taught

 

"The Holy Ghost is now in a state of probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.”

 

The latter may or may not refer to mortal probation, but I find it hard to believe the Holy Ghost is on probation in premortality.

[coolrok7]

No Deity was His nature before obtaining a body (soma) in order to suffer death on our behalf, the atonement.

[rodheadlee]

Even the devil comprehends the character of God. So, clearly knowing or comprehending God's nature isn't enough. 

 

What they don't have is a right relationship with him. To Know God is eternal life, that is to know him personally, as in relationship. 

 

I agree it's not that difficult. 

Did you read the whole King Follett Discourse or just my quote? I actually agree with everything you say here. I know God, I have a relationship with Him. He is the One who led me to His Son's Church and to Joseph Smith. The KFD is  beautiful to me.

[rodheadlee]

Hello Rod, this statement has always been a bit problematic for me.  I have never felt that I comprehend God; however, I believe in his perfect holiness and/or righteousness.  As I read this statement and limit the definition of character to God being holy then I have no problems with the statement.  However, if I broaden the definition to include a must broader meaning then there is a sense of being overwhelmed and an acknowledgement that this mortal existence prevents any of us from having a full understanding of God.  

 

Of course, I could just admit that I have a limited understanding of most things and call it good. 

No one but Christ and the Holy Ghost can fully comprehend Heavenly Father. I understand what you are saying. The main point of the KFD is Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ are of the same race as we are or rather we are of the same race as they are. If we reach  the Celestial Kingdom we will have a Celestial body just like theirs. The Holy Ghost will need to get a Celestial Body too, to reach the fullness of joy, to reach his maximum potential. I like what God tells Abraham.  19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another moreintelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am ^amore intelligent than they all.

[rodheadlee]

So God used to be a man like us and became a god?

He used to be a man like Jesus Christ. John 5: 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he ^aseeth the ^bFather do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

 

edited to ad: To me that means Heavenly Father was crucified and resurrected in some other eternity. He was a Christ.

Edited May 29, 2015 by rodheadlee

[rodheadlee]

 Of course, the issue is when did Jesus observe the Father act in similar situations?  

 

 

I believe the answer is John 8: 28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do ^anothing of myself; but as my ^bFatherhath ^ctaught me, I ^dspeak these things.

[JLHPROF]

He used to be a man like Jesus Christ. John 5: 19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he ^aseeth the ^bFather do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

 

Which always leads to the question WHERE Jesus saw Heavenly Father as a mortal being?

Christ being the eldest spirit child of Heavenly Father would not have been there to see Heavenly Father when he was in mortality.

 

Some believe that he only saw it in vision.

Some believe that all things past/present/future were available for us all to see in premortality.

Some who believe in Adam-God believe that Heavenly Father on earth as Adam was the laying down his life in mortality that was seen.

 

Always an interesting question.

[danielwoods]

Did you read the whole King Follett Discourse or just my quote? I actually agree with everything you say here. I know God, I have a relationship with Him. He is the One who led me to His Son's Church and to Joseph Smith. The KFD is  beautiful to me.

 

I read enough of it. 

 

The comments you replied to had to do with the interpretation of Eternal life is knowing God. It was said that it wasn't referencing relationship but knowing his nature, and I argued that it was referencing our relationship with him.

Your quote of the KFD was in support of the idea that it wasn't about relationship. Now you agree with me. Oh well.