Anakin7 Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 saemo so God is one "Divine Who" ? with 3 persons [absorbed into the essence/nature] in which is "Being" = which in non LDS terminology meaning means essence or nature. God is not a Title for non LDS Christians ? pray tell, True God is much more than a Title but Title belongs to his True God nature. Reads/sounds very greek neoplatonic to me, not the God of Abraham Issac Jacob or any True O.T Prophet Hebrew/Israelite/ N.T Saint Christian. What hath Athens to do with Jerusalem ? In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
saemo Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 (edited) saemo so God is one "Divine Who" ? with 3 persons [absorbed into the essence/nature] in which is "Being" = which in non LDS terminology meaning means essence or nature. God is not a Title for non LDS Christians ? pray tell, True God is much more than a Title but Title belongs to his True God nature. Reads/sounds very greek neoplatonic to me, not the God of Abraham Issac Jacob or any True O.T Prophet Hebrew/Israelite/ N.T Saint Christian. What hath Athens to do with Jerusalem ?In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7Good morning Anakin7. God has revealed Himself as One. I AMAnd God has revealed Himself as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We believe by faith what God has revealed.Our finite human minds cannot grasp our infinite God. We use language to express what we believe! "Absorbed" is a word that denotes modalism, and is not in the language we use to describe what God has revealed.As far as I remember from my short time in college, Plato was a pagan and would describe the gods in which he believed much differently than the Holy Trinity. I dare say Plato's demiurge is closer to what LDS believe, but that might be hyperbole. No, God is not a title for us. True God and false gods, but the false gods are gods, so-called. Not God. Christianity has always existed in a juxtaposition of God vs "the gods". "The gods" are not God, but what is imagined about God, therefore idols, and therefore, not God. Edited June 2, 2015 by saemo
Anakin7 Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 (edited) Thank you saemo, We LDS see in scripture that God has revealed Himself [ Actualy in non LDS ChristianTerminology God has no gender, we call "him" who is actualy "it" for convenience ] in Holy writ as any member of the True Godhead - an True Anchient Monarch/ Eastern /Economic Social/Godhead/Trinity. A Monarch Kingdom. The I Am is the person of Jesus not The Father or The Holy Ghost Spirit - Ex 3:14 cf Jn 8:58. John 17:3 - we can Know God on a personal level on who "He" really is. The 3 persons live within the nature of the 1 God and are absorbed in that nature and it surrounds them. Studies have been done by LDS and non LDS professors/scholars/historians that show plato's teachings on the "ONE" were adopted into the post N.T Christian concept of God. A great start for you is to google - "The God of The Philosophers is not the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob". May True Grace Bewith you and those you love. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited June 2, 2015 by Anakin7 1
Anakin7 Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 (edited) Can someone link to Richard Hopkins article/paper - "Counterfeiting The Mormon Concept of God" and post it please ?, Thank you in advance. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited June 2, 2015 by Anakin7
Gray Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 If read in English, sure. John 17 uses the neuter gender in Greek which figures into a oneness of characteristics than being. Is there anything about Genesis 1:26 that demands a literal interpretation?
JLHPROF Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 A valid question I suppose, if you believe in a pre-existing soul. If you don't, then there is no "go back to being spirits". Humans are created, both soul and body. This is what we are because this us how God created us. He created us out of love, and desires to be our God, and us His people.In the Resurrection, we see that:Jesus conquered death, which proves most definitively the truth that He is divine and possesses the divine authority to which He claimed.Fulfills promises found in the OT and promises made by Jesus Himself during His ministry.Opens the way for us to new life.Makes Him the principle and source of our future resurrection, and so our lives are swept up by Christ into the divine life, and we no longer live for ourselves but for Him. This does not address the issue of the nature of a resurrected body.The traditional Christian claim is that the Godhead are all spirits, but that the spirit Christ took upon himself a mortal body so he could die for our sins. All that happened.But this neither addresses the purpose in our having a resurrected body with flesh and bone, or Christ having a resurrected body of flesh and bone.To what end do we or Christ need to have a resurrection, a resurrected body, or any physicality at all? If God is merely a spirit, and Christ was God as a spirit, why can we not remain as spirits while our physical bodies remain in the grave? Why the resurrection for anyone?
danielwoods Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 John may have been written in Greek but Jesus taught in Aramaic (a derivative of Hebrew) not Greek. So, the problem with your "tense" remains. Right. So if you can quote for me what Jesus said in the Aramaic, then you would have an argument, until then not it's not a problem and never has been a problem. James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. If the Father doesn't have a body, then He is not alive. Wow. Stretching it as much as you can I see. God is the source of all life, yet if he doesn't have a body, he's not alive? Wow. I guess if you rip James out of context and squint a little it makes sense.
danielwoods Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead and quickeneth them, even so the Son quickeneth whom He will.John 5:24 Verily, verily I say unto you, he that heareth My Word and believeth in Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life.John 5:25 “Verily, verily I say unto you, the hour is coming and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they that hear shall live (ie shall be resurrected). 26 For as the Father hath life in Himself, so hath He given to the Son to have life in Himself, The context of the verses here is CLEARLY resurrection. God the Father is "the Resurrection and the Life" and He brought to pass resurrection. Now here, in this creation, Jesus is "the Resurrection and the Life". as the Father gave to Jesus the very same power and authority. The implication is clear, but you just don't seem to like what it implies. Previously Stephen wrote:Lets look at the phrase "image and likeness" as it is used in the Old Testament. Not only is it used to describe the son of Adam (his son looks like his father), but it is used often in the context of idol worship. Often in the Old Testament texts, we see people making an observation about something in the created Universe, whether it be in heaven or on earth. Perhaps they observed an Ox , an Eagle, a star (Sun), etc. They would then make a statue replica of that object , they would make an "image" or a "likeness" of that thing and begin to worship it. The root etymology of "image" is the SHADOW/SHAPE of the object. For example, the shadow/shape of a human would have a head, two arms, two legs, etc. If any of you have seen a statue of a human, then you have seen the image and likeness of that person. This is how the terms "image and likeness" are used EVERYWHERE in the Old Testament. Now, non-LDS would have us believe that this is what those words mean everywhere in the old Testament EXCEPT in Gen 1:26. There it MUST mean something different, because God simply has no image or likeness in that sense.Daniel responded: If the LDS have it correct, then one would expect other teachings throughout the Bible to confirm such teaching. But, what do we find? Don't make an image or likeness of God. Statements that indicate that the Father is Spirit, and that only Jesus has a body. Never is there a place in the Bible that teaches the Father possesses a body like man does. Listen to your argumentation here. There would be no point in making a command to "don't make an image or likeness of God" if God has no image or likeness to begin with. You have to admit that in order to pull off your interpretation, you have to make "image and likeness" in Genesis 1 mean something entirely different than it means everywhere else in the Old Testament. That is very , very poor interpretation. LDS are consistent. Image and likeness means the same thing throughout the entire Hebrew text. Furthermore, I have already demonstrated that your supposed "statements that indicate that the Father is Spirit" are very poor interpretations as well, that ignore the immediate context and language of those verses, as well as the general context and language of the New Testament. (See post 489) -Stephen So, where exactly does it say that the Father has a body? I must have missed it. You see, the John 5 isn't just about resurrection, unless Jesus was resurrecting right then, because of the "and now" present tense statements. Rather, "passing from death to life" was a description of salvation. Which even Paul uses the same terminology. "You have passed from death to life…." And if we are in the image of God, what is that image? That is the question. The LDS are take a hard literal stance, which is not supported by the rest of the Biblical text. That the "image" indicates that the Father has a body of which we are fashioned after. As I said, if this were the case we'd see plenty of evidence through out the rest of the Bible for this, but we don't. So the "image" that we are fashioned after, has to be a non-physical thing. And when we look at creation what is different about us? Our free will and intelligence and our ability to choose to love him or not. Every other creature is pre-programed by their DNA to do what they are designed to do. We have free will. So, while the LDS argue that the image has to be physical, it is clear to me that the image couldn't be physical, but is like a reflection of God inside us that allows us to commune directly with him.
thesometimesaint Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 So we must give up our bodies to pray to God? 1
danielwoods Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 Then what was the purpose of Christ being resurrected?We know why the spirit Christ took a body and came to earth. So that we might live eternally as resurrected beings. Christ himself was resurrected. So what is a resurrected body? Do we go back to being spirits? Did Christ return to being a spirit as you claim God is?No, he has a body that can be touched, that still has the marks of nails within it. If Christ is merely a spirit being like the Father who took on a mortal form so he could die for us, then the resurrection becomes a completely pointless occurrence. Raising a physical body from the grave into perfection? Why? We can all just be spirits. We could if that's what God desired. You have to understand the vast difference exemplified by our two positions. The God of the Bible sees all perspectives at the same time, all of them. Experiences all moments in history at the same time, all of them. To say that he "merely" is a spirit is to misunderstand the vastness of his being. To simply say that he has a body like us one has to ignore the numerous descriptions of him in the Biblical text, and it essentially dumbs him down to our level. Now, this is why when the Word became flesh and dwelt among us it was so unbelievable and amazing.
danielwoods Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 So we must give up our bodies to pray to God? Why would you say that?
JLHPROF Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 We could if that's what God desired. You have to understand the vast difference exemplified by our two positions. The God of the Bible sees all perspectives at the same time, all of them. Experiences all moments in history at the same time, all of them. To say that he "merely" is a spirit is to misunderstand the vastness of his being. To simply say that he has a body like us one has to ignore the numerous descriptions of him in the Biblical text, and it essentially dumbs him down to our level. Now, this is why when the Word became flesh and dwelt among us it was so unbelievable and amazing. This still doesn't explain the resurrection. Under that model the resurrection serves no purpose. 1
thesometimesaint Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 Why would you say that? Because we must worship God in Spirit.SEE John 4:24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. 1
TheSkepticChristian Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 What Joseph Smith taught about God isn't against the Bible. Some stuff is, we believe the Bible is not translated correctly
thesometimesaint Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 Man has been attributing his evil acts to God for a long time now.
danielwoods Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 Because we must worship God in Spirit.SEE John 4:24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. In spirit and truth. So who is claiming we can't do that with our spirits that reside in our bodies?
danielwoods Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 This still doesn't explain the resurrection. Under that model the resurrection serves no purpose. The resurrection is for those of us with a body. "It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption" and we put on immortality. What other purpose are you looking for?
thesometimesaint Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 In spirit and truth. So who is claiming we can't do that with our spirits that reside in our bodies? God is a spirit, we must worship God as a spirit, ergo give up up your body.
danielwoods Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 God is a spirit, we must worship God as a spirit, ergo give up up your body. So you are claiming that we must give up our body because God is spirit, why again? 1
JLHPROF Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 The resurrection is for those of us with a body. "It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption" and we put on immortality. What other purpose are you looking for? Why do we need a body at all?Why does Christ retain a body instead of returning to spirit?What is the purpose in having an eternal, perfect, physical body?Why bother resurrecting our bodies at all when our spirits are perfectly capable of dwelling with God and Christ? See, if God is a spirit, and we are all spirits, and Christ has paid for our sins allowing us to dwell with God, the entire doctrine of resurrection of Christ and us serves no eternal purpose. The body means nothing in that plan. They could stay in the grave and we would still be in the exact same position in heaven, only as spirits. It turns the resurrection into a pointless event instead of the main event of Christianity. 1
thesometimesaint Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 So you are claiming that we must give up our body because God is spirit, why again? God is a spirit, we have a spirit, we must worship God in spirit. The body is superfluous. Now if God has a body and a spirit the problem is solved.
danielwoods Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 Why do we need a body at all?Why does Christ retain a body instead of returning to spirit?What is the purpose in having an eternal, perfect, physical body?Why bother resurrecting our bodies at all when our spirits are perfectly capable of dwelling with God and Christ? See, if God is a spirit, and we are all spirits, and Christ has paid for our sins allowing us to dwell with God, the entire doctrine of resurrection of Christ and us serves no eternal purpose. The body means nothing in that plan. They could stay in the grave and we would still be in the exact same position in heaven, only as spirits. It turns the resurrection into a pointless event instead of the main event of Christianity. And as I asked before… "What other purpose are you looking for? "
danielwoods Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 God is a spirit, we have a spirit, we must worship God in spirit. The body is superfluous. Now if God has a body and a spirit the problem is solved. There was a problem? What problem was solved? I must have missed the problem that needed to be solved. 1
JLHPROF Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 And as I asked before… "What other purpose are you looking for? " And this response is why I will always be Mormon...where little events like the resurrection from the dead have some meaning. 2
saemo Posted June 2, 2015 Posted June 2, 2015 (edited) This does not address the issue of the nature of a resurrected body.The traditional Christian claim is that the Godhead are all spirits, but that the spirit Christ took upon himself a mortal body so he could die for our sins.All that happened.But this neither addresses the purpose in our having a resurrected body with flesh and bone, or Christ having a resurrected body of flesh and bone.To what end do we or Christ need to have a resurrection, a resurrected body, or any physicality at all? If God is merely a spirit, and Christ was God as a spirit, why can we not remain as spirits while our physical bodies remain in the grave? Why the resurrection for anyone?Hello,Our difference in belief here, goes back to how we each view the Fall. Adam and Eve were created as immortals, and lived in the immediate presence of God. Their sin caused death, and a separation of humanity from God. We are reconciled in Christ, who has conquered death and restored to us what was lost....life eternal, in the immediate presence of God.I already said, we are created as God created us. That is why we are what we are. To us, that is not only enough, it is fantastically amazing! The Mormon propensity towards viewing our creation by God, as lacking in something, puzzles me to no end! Why are we created with both body and soul? Because God willed it and in His infinite love and wisdom, we are profoundly grateful, to the point that we worship the One who created us!We find no problem, that needs to be solved, when looking at what God has done for us. Edited June 3, 2015 by saemo 1
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