Anakin7 Posted June 3, 2015 Posted June 3, 2015 (edited) From my LDS Kryptonian JEDI Archive - http://www.academia.edu/9848436/Augustine_and_the_Corporeality_of_God In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited June 3, 2015 by Anakin7 1
Anakin7 Posted June 3, 2015 Posted June 3, 2015 See also http://www.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/gods.htm In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7
coolrok7 Posted June 3, 2015 Posted June 3, 2015 (edited) A debt you can't pay Anakin7. None of us can. Which is why "meriting" eternal life will not work. Edited June 4, 2015 by coolrok7
JLHPROF Posted June 3, 2015 Posted June 3, 2015 A debt you can't pay Anakin7. None of us can. Which is why "meriting" eternal life will not work. Despite what you may think, Mormons don't believe in "meriting" eternal life either.But we do believe our actions effect our situation in that eternal life. Just as the Bible teaches.But eternal life is a gift - "None are lost except the sons of perdition" said Christ. Everyone else gets eternal life/resurrection/salvation.
Anakin7 Posted June 3, 2015 Posted June 3, 2015 (edited) coolrok please do not derail the thread with your post bye comments. No I cannot pay the Debt but I can accept/access/activate True Grace [charis] by way of True Faith [pistis]. I must use them as the Anchient Biblical Saints/Christians did not as certain16th Century individuals as using antinominianism/gnosticism. It was my understanding that Lutherans such as yourself are not OSAS and that you must do something to stay in Grace. But now let us continuewith this subject/topic of this thread. In His Eternal/Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited June 3, 2015 by Anakin7
Anakin7 Posted June 3, 2015 Posted June 3, 2015 (edited) coolrok7 that was very Christlike of you to say, thanks for reminding me by your example why I am not a protestant of your House. By the way my comment was out of Love and not being a "thread nannie" I said "please" not you had to. Please keep your adamic nature comments to yourself. Moderators please forgive coolrok7 he knows not what he posts. In His Eternal Debt/Grace Anakin7 Edited June 3, 2015 by Anakin7
halconero Posted June 3, 2015 Posted June 3, 2015 Yes, I can definitely see why ancient Hebrews would take it literally. But I don't see how we should feel obliged to do so, especially since most of us don't worship El or Yahweh as they were originally envisionedIt's not just to be taken literally. It was written literally. And we are obligated to do so because eternal life is found in knowing the true nature of deity. 1
Vance Posted June 3, 2015 Posted June 3, 2015 Good morning Anakin7. God has revealed Himself as One.I AMA better translation would be, "I-shall-become who I-am-becoming". See here.http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/exo3.pdf
Vance Posted June 3, 2015 Posted June 3, 2015 Right. So if you can quote for me what Jesus said in the Aramaic, then you would have an argument, until then not it's not a problem and never has been a problem.Well, now that IS interesting. You are admitting that WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT JESUS SAID!!!! So, clearly, your argument is without foundation. Wow. Stretching it as much as you can I see. God is the source of all life, yet if he doesn't have a body, he's not alive? Wow. I guess if you rip James out of context and squint a little it makes sense.So, is He the LIVING GOD or not? Or do you have to have your super secret Modern American Protestant Evangelical decoder ring to understand the plain language of the scriptures?
Vance Posted June 3, 2015 Posted June 3, 2015 In spirit and truth. So who is claiming we can't do that with our spirits that reside in our bodies? Daniel, you are missing the irony of your own statements.
Vance Posted June 3, 2015 Posted June 3, 2015 James says the body without the spirit is dead. The term mortal is applied to the body, not the spirit as spirits don't die, bodies do. Resurrection is the reuniting of the spirit with a glorified body at the Judgment Day (spiritualized so to speak as it will have properties that the corrupted one didn't have). It was for our benefit that Jesus became a man in order to suffer death to pay for (the atonement) our sinful nature (corrupted in the fall). Eternal life (the free gift given to believers, the sheep, as the result of faith) as contrasted with eternal punishment, eternally for those (the goats) who chose not to believe God. This will happen by God's design for us.For man to be "living" we need the body and spirit to be together. For Christ to be "living" He needed the body and spirit together. So for the Father to be the "living God", what? Matt. 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. John 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
TheSkepticChristian Posted June 3, 2015 Posted June 3, 2015 A debt you can't pay Anakin7. None of us can. Which is why "meriting" eternal life will not work. You can't prove the Trinity is possible, but can you at least show some evidence? What is the evidence that the Trinity is true?
Vance Posted June 3, 2015 Posted June 3, 2015 You can't prove the Trinity is possible, but can you at least show some evidence? What is the evidence that the Trinity is true? They can't explain what the "Trinity" is, so what would "evidence" even look like?
danielwoods Posted June 3, 2015 Posted June 3, 2015 Well, now that IS interesting. You are admitting that WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT JESUS SAID!!!! So, clearly, your argument is without foundation. So, is He the LIVING GOD or not? Or do you have to have your super secret Modern American Protestant Evangelical decoder ring to understand the plain language of the scriptures? Now you resort to putting words in my mouth to try and win arguments. Guess what, you win! Yeah! Woo Hoo! God is the source of all life. Your context ripping statement can't be stretched enough to say that because he's alive, he must have a body. Oh well, one can try can't you? Daniel, you are missing the irony of your own statements. John 6:46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.1 Tim. 6:15 God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen. Interesting isn't it? When the Bible talks about God the Father, there never is a mention of a body. Rather, just the opposite. He lives in unapproachable light, and no one has seen him or can see him. Interesting when juxtaposed to the teaching of the LDS.
Flyonthewall Posted June 4, 2015 Posted June 4, 2015 Now you resort to putting words in my mouth to try and win arguments. Guess what, you win! Yeah! Woo Hoo! God is the source of all life. Your context ripping statement can't be stretched enough to say that because he's alive, he must have a body. Oh well, one can try can't you? John 6:46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 1 Tim. 6:15 God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen. Interesting isn't it? When the Bible talks about God the Father, there never is a mention of a body. Rather, just the opposite. He lives in unapproachable light, and no one has seen him or can see him. Interesting when juxtaposed to the teaching of the LDS.Exodus 24:9-11, Exodus 33:23.
stephenpurdy Posted June 4, 2015 Posted June 4, 2015 (edited) "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you" (Romans 8:9).Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of our Spirits and live? (Hebrews 12:9)1 Cor 6:17 "But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him." "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7"Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'… Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. None of the scriptures you quote here describe a corporeal Father. You are arguing from silence, what scripture does not say, and conjecturing. As for being born of the Spirit, Jesus is telling Nicodemus that he must be reborn from above, IN SPIRIT. How does this say to you that the Father is corporeal? ..... I didn't say that those scriptures claim that God is corporeal. The purpose of providing those scriptures is simple. Christians ALWAYS claim that God is ONLY Spirit, and to support this claim, they quote a phrase from John 4:24 out of context. Here is the context: "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." Here Christ says that true worship is when our spirits commune with the Spirit of God. Furthermore, Jesus was foretelling the time when disciples would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. That verse does not even come close to giving evidence in the Bible that God the Father is ONLY spirit. Especially when John, earlier in that same book says, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6) Saying that those who are born in Christ are "spirit" should not be understood to mean that they lack a physical body. Likewise, saying God is spirit should not be understood to mean that God lacks a physical body. Get it? -stephen Edited June 4, 2015 by stephenpurdy 2
stephenpurdy Posted June 4, 2015 Posted June 4, 2015 (edited) Now you resort to putting words in my mouth to try and win arguments. Guess what, you win! Yeah! Woo Hoo! God is the source of all life. Your context ripping statement can't be stretched enough to say that because he's alive, he must have a body. Oh well, one can try can't you? John 6:46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.1 Tim. 6:15 God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen. Interesting isn't it? When the Bible talks about God the Father, there never is a mention of a body. Rather, just the opposite. He lives in unapproachable light, and no one has seen him or can see him. Interesting when juxtaposed to the teaching of the LDS. There are plenty of places in the Bible where it is said that people see God. Here is the issue. When man became fallen, one of the consequences was removal from the presence of God. The fallen nature of man does not allow man to dwell in the presence of God or see God. When the text says that man cannot see God, it is referring to the "natural man" or "fallen man". However, Redeemed mankind CAN and WILL see God and dwell in the presence of God. The LDS position is entirely consistent with scripture. Here is a very interesting aspect of this discussion. Remember from the Old Testament account that Moses, when he descended from speaking with the Lord face to face, his face was still glowing. Sometimes other people could not even withstand Moses' face after these encounters, therefore Moses would put on a veil. (Exodus 34: 34) But whenever Moses went in before the LORD to speak with Him, he would take off the veil until he came out; and whenever he came out and spoke to the sons of Israel what he had been commanded, 35the sons of Israel would see the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone. So Moses would replace the veil over his face until he went in to speak with Him. This scripture is consistent with the Bible, and is found in the canonized scripture of the LDS, the Pearl of Great Price: 1 The words of God, which he spake unto Moses at a time when Moses was caught up into an exceedingly high mountain 2 And he saw God face to face, and he talked with him, and the glory of God was upon Moses; therefore Moses could endure his presence. 3 And God spake unto Moses, ... 4 And, behold, thou art my son; wherefore look, and I will show thee the workmanship of mine hands; but not all, for my works are without end, and also my words, for they never cease. 5 Wherefore, no man can behold all my works, except he behold all my glory; and no man can behold all my glory, and afterwards remain in the flesh on the earth. 6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all. 7 And now, behold, this one thing I show unto thee, Moses, my son, for thou art in the world, and now I show it unto thee. 8 And it came to pass that Moses looked, and beheld the world upon which he was created; and Moses beheld the world and the ends thereof, and all the children of men which are, and which were created; of the same he greatly marveled and wondered. 9 And the presence of God withdrew from Moses, that his glory was not upon Moses; and Moses was left unto himself. And as he was left unto himself, he fell unto the earth. 10 And it came to pass that it was for the space of many hours before Moses did again receive his natural strength like unto man; and he said unto himself: Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed. 11 But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him. -stephen Edited June 4, 2015 by stephenpurdy
stephenpurdy Posted June 4, 2015 Posted June 4, 2015 For man to be "living" we need the body and spirit to be together. For Christ to be "living" He needed the body and spirit together. So for the Father to be the "living God", what? Matt. 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. John 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. This is similar to the point I made earlier: John 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead and quickeneth them, even so the Son quickeneth whom He will.John 5:24 Verily, verily I say unto you, he that heareth My Word and believeth in Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life. (ie resurrection)John 5:25 “Verily, verily I say unto you, the hour is coming and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they that hear shall live (ie shall be resurrected). 26 For as the Father hath life in Himself, so hath He given to the Son to have life in Himself. Clearly the context is resurrection. Having "life in Himself" refers to being resurrected. -stephen 1
stephenpurdy Posted June 4, 2015 Posted June 4, 2015 Despite what you may think, Mormons don't believe in "meriting" eternal life either.But we do believe our actions effect our situation in that eternal life. Just as the Bible teaches.But eternal life is a gift - "None are lost except the sons of perdition" said Christ. Everyone else gets eternal life/resurrection/salvation. Many of these evangelicals practically criticize people who do "good works" Not always, but in general, I have found that people who want to criticize LDS for supposedly believing that we "earn our salvation" are those who claim "once saved always saved" and want to continue in a sinful lifestyle. The reality of it is this: those who truly have a genuine relationship with Christ will produce "fruit"/"good works". Then those good works help in the process of "sanctification", and the person will grow in that relationship with Christ and produce more "fruit"/"good works". While it is true that WITHOUT the atonement of Jesus Christ, no amount of good works would ever "earn us into Heaven", ... but guess what? He DID perform the atonement, and that is NOT an invitation to continue in sin. It is an invitation to repent and follow Christ and be saved from sin. -stephen 4
Bobbieaware Posted June 4, 2015 Posted June 4, 2015 Many of these evangelicals practically criticize people who do "good works" Not always, but in general, I have found that people who want to criticize LDS for supposedly believing that we "earn our salvation" are those who claim "once saved always saved" and want to continue in a sinful lifestyle. The reality of it is this: those who truly have a genuine relationship with Christ will produce "fruit"/"good works". Then those good works help in the process of "sanctification", and the person will grow in that relationship with Christ and produce more "fruit"/"good works". While it is true that WITHOUT the atonement of Jesus Christ, no amount of good works would ever "earn us into Heaven", ... but guess what? He DID perform the atonement, and that is NOT an invitation to continue in sin. It is an invitation to repent and follow Christ and be saved from sin. -stephenSuperb! It's almost as if Paul"s admonition for the saints to press on toward perfection, Peter's commandment to continually grow in the grace and knowledge of God, and John's stipulation that only those who overcome the world will have the right to sit as kings and priests upon the very throne of Christ, are mere afterthoughts of little ultimate concern or consequence. 1
Vance Posted June 4, 2015 Posted June 4, 2015 The purpose of providing those scriptures is simple. Christians ALWAYS claim that God is ONLY Spirit, and to support this claim, they quote a phrase from John 4:24 out of context. Here is the context: "But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." Yes, they always take it out of context. John 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. You would think it was obvious what the real context is.
Vance Posted June 4, 2015 Posted June 4, 2015 Exodus 24:9-11, Exodus 33:23.Don't forget Heb 11:27. Apparently "invisible" doesn't mean what Modern American Protestant Evangelicals think it means.
danielwoods Posted June 4, 2015 Posted June 4, 2015 Exodus 24:9-11, Exodus 33:23. Exodus 24:9 Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up 10 and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of lapis lazuli, as bright blue as the sky. 11 But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank.Exodus 33:23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen. Above are two descriptions of encounters with a pre-incarnate Christ. As Jesus said, no one has seen God the Father at anytime. Period.
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