Do We Worship Christ?

[JLHPROF]

The Joseph Smith thread is (once again) debating the extent to which we honor Joseph Smith.  On the one side you have those who feel like he is deserving of honor and praise.  On the other we have those who become uncomfortable with anything close to "Joseph worship".

 

The big problem is how we define WORSHIP?

 

Does worship have to include who we pray to?  Because the Savior taught us only to pray to the Father.

Does worship include calling someone "good" because Christ said to call none good but the Father.

Does worship include bowing down?  Because that included the resurrected Christ scripturally.

Does worship include naming a personage as deity?  Because Mormonism teaches that is the end goal for all of us.

Does worship include deference to those in authority over us, because that could include all of the prophets including Joseph Smith?

 

 

What is your definition of worship?  Do you apply it to the Father?  The Father & the Son?  The Father, Son and the Holy Ghost?  All those who hold positions of authority in God's Kingdom?

And where do our choices as to who we worship originate?  The teachings of the restored gospel?  Seeping in of protestant or trinitarian tradition?  Personal feeling of worshipfulness chosen to express?

 

President Joseph F. Smith though it was only the Father.

 

 

"It [God's work] is the power of God unto salvation, and I want my boys and girls to take my testimony upon this point. And yet, while we give the honor and glory unto the Lord God Almighty for the accomplishment of his purposes, let us not altogether despise the instrument that he chooses to accomplish the work by. We do not worship him; we worship God, and we call upon his holy name, as we have been directed in the gospel, in the name of his Son. We call for mercy in the name of Jesus; we ask for blessings in the name of Jesus. We are baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. We are initiated into the Church and Kingdom of God in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and we worship the Father. "  Joseph F. Smith

 

but then Pres. Hinckley included Christ and the Father, but not the personage of the Holy Ghost.

 

 

“We do not worship [Joseph Smith] the Prophet. We worship God our Eternal Father and the risen Lord Jesus Christ. But we acknowledge the Prophet; we proclaim him; we respect him; we reverence him as an instrument in the hands of the Almighty in restoring to the earth the ancient truths of the divine gospel, together with the priesthood through which the authority of God is exercised in the affairs of His Church and for the blessing of His people”

Gordon B. Hinckley

 

 

And is this all just semantics?

Edited April 13, 2015 by JLHPROF

[CV75]

And is this all just semantics?

Not "just" semantics; the Holy Ghost is all about "meaning." In some senses we might apply a correct connotation to the word "worship" that is suitable for one context but not for another (and vice-vera).

[teddyaware]

The Joseph Smith thread is (once again) debating the extent to which we honor Joseph Smith.  On the one side you have those who feel like he is deserving of honor and praise.  On the other we have those who become uncomfortable with anything close to "Joseph worship".

 

The big problem is how we define WORSHIP?

 

Does worship have to include who we pray to?  Because the Savior taught us only to pray to the Father.

Does worship include calling someone "good" because Christ said to call none good but the Father.

Does worship include bowing down?  Because that included the resurrected Christ scripturally.

Does worship include naming a personage as deity?  Because Mormonism teaches that is the end goal for all of us.

Does worship include deference to those in authority over us, because that could include all of the prophets including Joseph Smith?

 

 

What is your definition of worship?  Do you apply it to the Father?  The Father & the Son?  The Father, Son and the Holy Ghost?  All those who hold positions of authority in God's Kingdom?

And where do our choices as to who we worship originate?  The teachings of the restored gospel?  Seeping in of protestant or trinitarian tradition?  Personal feeling of worshipfulness chosen to express?

 

President Joseph F. Smith though it was only the Father.

 

 

but then Pres. Hinckley included Christ and the Father, but not the Holy Ghost.

 

 

 

And is this all just semantics?

 

The 93rd section of the D&C provides the best and most complete definition of worship: Which worship is to honor and uphold Christ as the the source of all truth and blessings and to also view Him as our perfect exemplar. Section 93 declares that the truest and most effective form of worship is to earnestly follow in Christ's pathway to perfection by emulating Him as One who received not the fulness of God at first but followed the divine pattern of earnestly progressing from one degree of divine grace to higher and higher degrees of divine grace until He received all the eternal fulness of the attributes of God.

 

The primary mechanism by which He achieved such dynamic spiritual growth is called "receiving grace for grace" which points to His anxious and single-minded willingness to share the degrees of divine grace he already possessed with others in order to help them progress along on the same path to ultimate perfection: Because He delighted in serving others by lovingly and unselfishly sharing the divine power and gifts He already possessed, He was blessed by the Father to obtain more and more of the Father's divine gifts, powers and attributes until He inherited all God the Father possesses.

 

True worship, then, is to follow in the footsteps of Christ, growing from grace to grace by receiving grace for grace in sincere service to God and man. More simply put, true worship is to humbly, earnestly, diligently and sincerely embark on Christ's path to Godhood:

 

11 And I, John, bear record that I beheld his glory, as the glory of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, even the Spirit of truth, which came and dwelt in the flesh, and dwelt among us.

 12 And I, John (the Baptist), saw that he received not of the fulness at the first, but received grace for grace;

 13 And he received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness;

 14 And thus he was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fulness at the first.

 15 And I, John, bear record, and lo, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove, and sat upon him, and there came a voice out of heaven saying: This is my beloved Son.

 16 And I, John, bear record that he received a fulness of the glory of the Father;

 17 And he received all power, both in heaven and on earth, and the glory of the Father was with him, for he dwelt in him.

 18 And it shall come to pass, that if you are faithful you shall receive the fulness of the record of John.

 19 I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know HOW TO WORSHIP, and know WHAT YOU WORSHIP, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness.

 20 For if you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace. (D&C 93)

Edited April 13, 2015 by teddyaware

[JAHS]

We worship the living eternal God the Father in the name of Jesus Christ.

 

"And we know that all men must repent and believe on the name of Jesus Christ, and worship the Father in his name, and endure in faith on his name to the end, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God." (D&C 20:29)

 

"I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness" (D&C 93:19). 

 

Jesus said:

"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him." (John 4:23)

 

The scriptures tell us to worship Jesus Christ as well:

 

"And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out." (2 Nephi 25:29)

 

So we could just say we worship God, which includes the Father and Jesus. 

[JLHPROF]

 

So we could just say we worship God, which includes the Father and Jesus. 

 

 

How very trinitarian of us.

[Thinking]

I worship my wife!

[CCRW]

I have no clue.

 

"I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness"

 

From the verses leading up to that I gathered that no one would, who had not seen his face.

 

I also figured achieving section 84:19 would be a prerequisite to finding out.

[CCRW]

I worship my wife!

It is tax day coming up again ... as usual my wife goes down as "Domestic Goddess" once again as well.

Edited April 14, 2015 by CCRW

[Yirgacheffe]

How very trinitarian of us.

But it's only 2, how can it be trinitarian.   And why is trinitarian flagged as misspelling?

[JAHS]

How very trinitarian of us.

Of course not trinitarian in the traditional Christian sense of the word. But sometimes when it's hard to know who certain scriptures are refering to I like to think of the word "God" in the plural sense. Like deer and deer.

[HOLY CATHOLIC]

Mormons only worship the Father according to continuing revelation, even though 3 Nephi 11:17 tells us to worship Jesus  

 

Bruce McConkie Our Relationship with the Lord

 

http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.pip?id=6843

Edited April 14, 2015 by HOLY CATHOLIC

[bluebell]

Mormons only worship the Father according to continuing revelation, even though 3 Nephi 11:17 tells us to worship Jesus  

 

Bruce McConkie Our Relationship with the Lord

 

http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.pip?id=6843

 

Once again, you are proclaiming stuff that you don't actually understand.

 

Bruce McConkie wrote this popular hymn (which is song often in lds churches)-

 

I Believe in Christ

 

I believe in Christ, he is my king;

With all my heart to him I’ll sing;

I’ll raise my voice in praise and joy,

In grand amens my tongue employ.

I believe in Christ, he is God’s Son;

On earth to dwell his soul did come;

He healed the sick, the dead he raised,

Good works were his, his name be praised.

I believe in Christ, O blessed name,

As Mary’s Son he came to reign

’Mid mortal men, his earthly kin,

To save them from the woes of sin.

I believe in Christ, who marked the path,

Who did gain all his Father hath,

Who said to men: “Come, follow me,

That ye, my friends, with God may be.”

I believe in Christ—my Lord, my God—

My feet he plants on gospel sod;

I’ll worship him with all my might;

He is the source of truth and light.

I believe in Christ, he ransoms me;

From Satan’s grasp he sets me free,

And I shall live with joy and love

In his eternal courts above.

I believe in Christ, he stands supreme;

From him I’ll gain my fondest dream;

And while I strive through grief and pain,

His voice is heard: “Ye shall obtain.”

I believe in Christ; so come what may,

With him I’ll stand in that great day

When on this earth he comes again,

To rule among the sons of men.

 

Notice the bolded line.

[HOLY CATHOLIC]

Notice how Bruce calls Jesus by his title Christ rather than his personal name the name above every name JESUS

 

notice the BOLD

[Gray]

Notice how Bruce calls Jesus by his title Christ rather than his personal name the name above every name JESUS

 

notice the BOLD

 

In Mormonism there is traditionally a preference for using the title, so as not to be too casual with the use of His name. 

[bluebell]

Notice how Bruce calls Jesus by his title Christ rather than his personal name the name above every name JESUS

 

notice the BOLD

 

Absolutely!  I'm glad you noticed.  I have no idea why that is significant (in the negative i guess?) to you but I know why it's significant to me.  

 

Besides what Gray has already said, we tend to try not to divorce Jesus from what He is to us-our Savior, the Messiah.  The Christ.  The term is used as the ultimate show of respect and reverence for who exactly Jesus is, especially when what is being talked about are things that He does as He fulfills the role of our Savior.

[HOLY CATHOLIC]

JESUS JESUS the SWEETEST name above all names not Christ , that what evangelics teach . The person we worship and pray too. 3 Nephi 11:17

[Gray]

JESUS JESUS the SWEETEST name above all names not Christ , that what evangelics teach . 

 

Relevance? 

[JAHS]

Mormons only worship the Father according to continuing revelation, even though 3 Nephi 11:17 tells us to worship Jesus  

 

Bruce McConkie Our Relationship with the Lord

 

http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.pip?id=6843

 

Here's something else Elder McConkie said:

"With reference to Christ, we are expected to give him love, honor, adoration, and worship; we are expected to pour out our hearts in thanksgiving because of the Atonement he made."  (Sermons and writings of Bruce R McConkie - How to Worship)

[HOLY CATHOLIC]

Bruce said in his BYU speech that Mormons only Worship the Father and we don't worship the Son , God is not the author of confusion. Bruce seems quite confused .  

[JLHPROF]

Bruce said in his BYU speech that Mormons only Worship the Father and we don't worship the Son , God is not the author of confusion. Bruce seems quite confused .

 

That's because whether we want to admit it or not we have conflicting instructions from the prophets, apostles, and scriptures on this one.

Either that or the definition of worship is applied differently in different situations.

[bluebell]

JESUS JESUS the SWEETEST name above all names not Christ , that what evangelics teach . The person we worship and pray too. 3 Nephi 11:17

 

1-I'm not sure why what evangelicals teach should matter to members of the LDS church.

 

2-LDS worship Christ

 

3-We do not pray to Christ because Jesus teaches us in the bible to pray to God the Father.  He explains (in the book of mormon) why the people prayed to Him at that time-because He was present and they were focused on their experience with Him.

[bluebell]

 

Either that or the definition of worship is applied differently in different situations.

 

Exactly.  That talk at BYU was in a very specific context and with a backdrop of some inappropriate meetings going on among members where they were trying to have a relationship with Jesus Christ instead of and above a relationship with God the Father.

[JAHS]

That's because whether we want to admit it or not we have conflicting instructions from the prophets, apostles, and scriptures on this one.

Either that or the definition of worship is applied differently in different situations.

Here's what Elder McConkie said in that talk:

"We do not worship the Son, and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense—the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator."

 

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/mcconkie-bruce-r_relationship-lord/

 

So I think you are right about different situations, at least regarding to how he sees it. 

[JLHPROF]

Here's what Elder McConkie said in that talk:

"We do not worship the Son, and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense—the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator."

 

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/mcconkie-bruce-r_relationship-lord/

 

So I think you are right about different situations, at least regarding to how he sees it. 

 

LOVE that quote.  Perfectly sums up my opinion.

"the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to him"

Don't see why lesser degrees of that can't be applied to other people - like Joseph Smith.

 

ETA:  Wait a minute!  Did I really just agree with Elder McConkie on a point of doctrine?

I don't feel well...

Edited April 14, 2015 by JLHPROF

[Teancum]

LOVE that quote.  Perfectly sums up my opinion.

"the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to him"

Don't see why lesser degrees of that can't be applied to other people - like Joseph Smith.

 

ETA:  Wait a minute!  Did I really just agree with Elder McConkie on a point of doctrine?

I don't feel well...

 

 

Ahhhh Poor Bruce... once the King of LDS  and Mormon Doctrine... his book was almost canon to most LDS.... he is now marginalized and put down.

 

But LDS Doctrine does not change...... you bet.....