Room For All - Boldness Over The Pulpit

[AllFlavors]

I thought you might be interested in a talk that my good friend Chad gave a few Sundays back.

 

I was simply amazed… and uncomfortable with his boldness.  I have never heard anything like it over the Mormon pulpit, but I assume it is happening more and more across Mormon nation.  Chad spoke after his sweet wife, who had no idea “this” was coming.  She was visibly frightened as Chad spoke. 

 

The cool thing is the very warm reception - and congratulations - and glad you broke the ice that came from many members after.  Though the bishop and councilor who asked him to speak were ‘concerned’ .  BTW - His wife is OK now that there is some level of cultural support for what was said.  It will be very interesting to see what happens or does not happen over the coming weeks.  Speculation is running ramped.

 

There is nothing to refute here, nothing to be ashamed of, nothing that does not absolutely need to be said.  Glad he said it.

 

__________________________________________________________________________

 

A Place for all Flavors – talk 12/28/2014, by Chad Morris

In the October 2013 session of General Conference President Uchtdorf gave a talk titled “Come Join with Us”. The talk is addressed to those that have separated themselves from the church and it is an invitation to stay, or to come back as the case may be.

 

To the doubters he says, it is natural to have questions, and that we should never allow our doubts to hold us prisoner and prevent us from receiving blessings that come through faith in Christ. To those that feel they cannot live up to the standards required for church members, President Uchtdorf says, the church is “designed to nourish the imperfect, the struggling, and the exhausted”. And to those that feel they just don’t fit in, he proclaims that the diversity of its members is the strength of the church, and that we need the unique talents and perspectives of such people.

 

On Christmas we had the opportunity to speak over Skype with our Missionary daughter, Hannah, who is serving in Mexico. What a treat that was. She has really lost herself in the work and is doing just fantastic. She told me that she absolutely loves this particular talk by President Uchtdorf. She said she uses it all the time when meeting with less active members. I personally believe this address is one of the most important talks given in conference in decades. And although it has resonated with many, I believe it has been largely overlooked because it is a speech directed at wayward members, isn’t it? After all, he was speaking to those who are doubters, sinners, and mis-fits. Why should we active members need to discuss his talk?

 

President Uchtdorf says to the struggling members, “my dear friends, there is yet a place for you here”. But I would like you to honestly ask yourselves, is that really true? Do we really have a place in the church for these people? Do we make room? Are we providing a place where they feel safe? A place where they feel they are not being looked down upon? A place where they feel they are not being judged? A place where they feel their thoughts, their opinions, their unique situations, their feelings, and their beliefs are respected and valued?

 

President Uchtdorf’s address was certainly timely. Only 3 years ago Church Historian Marlin K. Jensen, addressing a Mormon studies group at Utah State University said, “top church leaders realize that, maybe, since Kirtland we've never had a period of, … apostasy, like we're having right now.” Wow. Modern apostasy, like took place in Kirtland! Just what is it he is talking about?

Today the Internet provides us with an unprecedented level of information, information that one can access in seconds. This has led to members being confronted with details of the Church’s past that have previously been unknown to them. And the Internet also provides a forum for discussion about these topics. Some of this information is troubling to some members and as a result they find themselves questioning long-held beliefs and reconsidering things they once thought they “knew” were true. This has become so common that we now have the term “faith crisis” to describe it. Maybe you know someone experiencing a faith crisis. Maybe you have a friend or even family member that has struggled this way, perhaps even one of your own children.

 

As you are probably aware, over the past year and a half the church has reacted with a series of essays published on its website, lds.org, to help those experiencing a crisis of faith. I applaud the Church for providing information on topics that have been particularly troubling for some, such as polygamy, blacks and the priesthood, the Book of Abraham, differing versions of the First Vision, etc. We now can easily determine what the Church acknowledges as factual, without worrying whether the information is credible or “anti-Mormon”. However, for many, the essays aren’t enough, or they simply provide validation that their concerns are legitimate.

 

For those enduring a crisis of faith, the journey can be extremely lonely. These individuals often feel they cannot go to church leaders for answers, or have found answers given to them by church leaders to be unsatisfactory. And our typical reaction is to try to correct the doubter, tell them where they are going wrong and bear testimony, which for someone steeped in the traditions of the church isn’t terribly effective and is usually interpreted as an unwillingness to listen and understand their concerns. And of course the struggling member stays silent about doubts during discussions at church. There simply isn’t a venue to openly discuss them. Social pressures, especially here in Utah can be enormous and people often fear for how a spouse or children will be treated if people see them as a non-believer. Generally speaking, members going through a faith crisis love the church, and love the people in the church, but don’t feel they can be honest with other members about their doubts, their struggles to believe. There may be some here listening to me now that find themselves in that situation.

 

Last week our good Bishop, Bishop Alder, reminded us that the Gospel is simple. Christ provided us an example to love one another and serve one another. And when we follow His example, we not only bring joy to others, but we find peace and happiness in this life. The Gospel is simple. I couldn’t agree more with the Bishop.

 

But let’s be honest. While the Gospel is simple, being a card carrying member of the church isn’t. We have to not only obey the commandments common to all Christians, but we have our own extra set, including the Word of Wisdom and Tithing. And we have to declare to church leaders that we keep these various commandments and believe specific points of doctrine in order to get a temple recommend. And we need that temple recommend because without it we can’t receive the ordinances necessary to go to heaven or be sealed to our family.

 

It is easy to see how all of this can foster unhealthy attitudes among members. If someone isn’t a temple-goer, then they must not be living the commandments, or they must not have a strong testimony. Then we have callings. And it is easy to see who magnifies their calling and who doesn’t, right? And if anyone ever sees someone drinking coffee or alcohol, or having a smoke, well that kind of news spreads like wildfire. And we are so busy concerning ourselves with all these trivial things that we completely forget about the two greatest commandments. And as a side note, isn’t it ironic that the two greatest commandments aren’t even a part of the temple recommend interview?

 

Now to be clear, I love everyone in this ward and I don’t mean to say that that there is anyone here who is intentionally judgmental, or intolerant. However, as a whole I believe we church members have a tendency to create a model in our mind of the perfect Mormon, or of the perfect Mormon couple, or the perfect family. And once we have this model in our head it is easy to tell who resembles that model and who doesn’t. And those that don’t fit the model know it, and they feel it from the other members.

 

There was a time after my divorce where being a member of the church was difficult. For me, it was not a matter of belief, or commitment to keeping the commandments, but a matter of fitting in. Certainly I wasn’t mistreated, people were friendly enough, but I think they simply did not know what to do with me, a single dad with 3 kids. And I understood, because prior to my divorce I always thought anyone who was divorced was a loser. Now I was that loser.

 

It wasn’t just that people didn’t know what to say, or that no one invited me over for dinner, or things like that. I just didn’t “belong”. The social events were always awkward and the lessons in Priesthood and Sunday School often left me feeling uncomfortable. I recall one occasion when a well-meaning Elders Quorum instructor basically warned the quorum that they could end up just like me if they didn’t live up to their responsibilities as husbands and fathers. Gee, Thanks a lot! And although I faithfully attended that ward for over 3 years I was never extended a calling.

Now I am not resentful of any of these people. I know none of them were intentionally insensitive. However, given that experience, I cannot imagine the courage of active members whose circumstances put them even further out from the Mormon norm, such as gay and lesbian members, or members struggling with addictions or substance abuse.

 

The other day at a family party I was speaking to my 22 year old nephew. He is a really nice kid, intelligent and thoughtful. I started quizzing him about the usual stuff: school, work, girls – like you do when you see your nephew only 2 or 3 times a year. Now this guy was raised in the church and definitely identifies himself as Mormon, but for various reasons hasn’t been active for quite a few years. I told him he should go to the singles ward, you know, for the girls. And while he acknowledged that there are a lot of “hot” Mormon girls at the singles wards who he would love to date, he dryly explained that none of them would be interested in him. As he explained, the girls in the singles ward all have their list of requirements for men they want to date and because he hasn’t been active and is not exactly the “believing” type, none of them would want to date him. I tried to tell him that there are all kinds of degrees of Mormons and that surely there were girls in the singles ward that were his same level of Mormon-ness.

 

But the truth is, he is right and it breaks my heart for him. Although there are a lot of flavors of Mormons, there are only a couple flavors of Mormons that tend to be active. We unintentionally make it really hard for the others. We inadvertently push people like my nephew away. And I think that is really too bad. I wish so badly that all flavors of Mormons could feel comfortable participating.

 

For example, would it be so bad if the guy that occasionally grabs a beer after work also shows up at church every week? And no one cared (I mean about the beer, we obviously want to care about the person)? Or would it be so bad if in Elders Quorum someone expresses disbelief about the Angel and the flaming sword that they read about in the essay on lds.org, and everyone is absolutely fine to talk about it? And wouldn’t it be great if someone says they are of the opinion that women should be ordained, and they are allowed to simply share their opinion without being castigated or receive an invitation to speak with the Bishop or Stake President? Wouldn’t it be a good thing if we as a church could tolerate a wide range of differing opinions, and variance in beliefs amongst ourselves? Can this not be a place for all flavors of Mormons? From those that walk in lock-step with the Prophet to those that are perhaps Mormon in culture but maybe even struggle to believe in god?

 

If what Brother Marlin Jenson said about the modern apostasy is true, we should be doing everything we can to open our arms, open our hearts, and open our minds to these brothers and sisters. The church has so many wonderful blessings to offer all varieties of Mormons. If only we can make a place for everyone.

 

Christ taught over and over again that we should be loving, non-judgmental, and accepting of others. To the dismay of the Pharisees, the Savior associated with the publicans and sinners, even sitting down to break bread with them. From the Book of Mormon we are taught that Christ invites “…all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God…”

 

Coming back to President Uchtdorf’s talk, I believe it is not enough to tell struggling members that there is “yet a place for [them] here”. No, we must also ensure that there really is a place for them. A place where they feel valued regardless how near or far their beliefs are from the mainstream members. A place where not only testimonies can be shared, but doubts can be expressed honestly and sincerely. A place where friendship is not contingent upon belief. A place where people are accepted regardless whether their lifestyle is exactly “in line” with the church’s “standards”. A place where regardless of opinions they can be shared without fear of judgment. A place where all the good the church has to offer can be imparted without bias. In short, a place where the members on the margins don’t have to feel marginalized.

 

It is my prayer, that President Uchtdorf’s message can be taken to heart, both by those that have separated themselves from the church, and by those who can help make a place for them to “come join with us”.

[Uncle Dale]

Modern apostasy, like took place in Kirtland! Just what is it he is talking about?...

 

 

Interesting talk -- obviously occupied more than three minutes.

 

The slow-down in contemporary LDS expansion more resembles

the mid-1850s falling off in Europe, south of Scandinavia, than it

does the situation in Kirtland, c. 1837-39. In the latter scenario,

Heber C. Kimball claimed that only a handful of the membership

remained loyal to the First Presidency. It was a time when apostles,

seventies, high councilors, and even the entire leadership in

Missouri turned against "The Brethren."

 

Nothing like that is going on today.

 

The 1850s falling off in England, Wales, etc. was partly due to

local dismay over the suddenly-revealed practice of LDS polygamy,

and partly due to other factors. The loss was made up for by the

conversion of Danes, Dutch, a few Swedes, etc.

 

I suppose that the 21st century falling off of North American LDS

membership will eventually be compensated for by increased

conversions in South America, Africa, perhaps China -- people

who do not care about what is circulating on the Internet, or how

modern Mormonism has changed from its worldview of yesteryear.

 

UD

[teddyaware]

 

I thought you might be interested in a talk that my good friend Chad gave a few Sundays back.

 

I was simply amazed… and uncomfortable with his boldness.  I have never heard anything like it over the Mormon pulpit, but I assume it is happening more and more across Mormon nation.  Chad spoke after his sweet wife, who had no idea “this” was coming.  She was visibly frightened as Chad spoke. 

 

The cool thing is the very warm reception - and congratulations - and glad you broke the ice that came from many members after.  Though the bishop and councilor who asked him to speak were ‘concerned’ .  BTW - His wife is OK now that there is some level of cultural support for what was said.  It will be very interesting to see what happens or does not happen over the coming weeks.  Speculation is running ramped.

 

There is nothing to refute here, nothing to be ashamed of, nothing that does not absolutely need to be said.  Glad he said it.

 

__________________________________________________________________________

 

A Place for all Flavors – talk 12/28/2014, by Chad Morris

In the October 2013 session of General Conference President Uchtdorf gave a talk titled “Come Join with Us”. The talk is addressed to those that have separated themselves from the church and it is an invitation to stay, or to come back as the case may be.

 

To the doubters he says, it is natural to have questions, and that we should never allow our doubts to hold us prisoner and prevent us from receiving blessings that come through faith in Christ. To those that feel they cannot live up to the standards required for church members, President Uchtdorf says, the church is “designed to nourish the imperfect, the struggling, and the exhausted”. And to those that feel they just don’t fit in, he proclaims that the diversity of its members is the strength of the church, and that we need the unique talents and perspectives of such people.

 

On Christmas we had the opportunity to speak over Skype with our Missionary daughter, Hannah, who is serving in Mexico. What a treat that was. She has really lost herself in the work and is doing just fantastic. She told me that she absolutely loves this particular talk by President Uchtdorf. She said she uses it all the time when meeting with less active members. I personally believe this address is one of the most important talks given in conference in decades. And although it has resonated with many, I believe it has been largely overlooked because it is a speech directed at wayward members, isn’t it? After all, he was speaking to those who are doubters, sinners, and mis-fits. Why should we active members need to discuss his talk?

 

President Uchtdorf says to the struggling members, “my dear friends, there is yet a place for you here”. But I would like you to honestly ask yourselves, is that really true? Do we really have a place in the church for these people? Do we make room? Are we providing a place where they feel safe? A place where they feel they are not being looked down upon? A place where they feel they are not being judged? A place where they feel their thoughts, their opinions, their unique situations, their feelings, and their beliefs are respected and valued?

 

President Uchtdorf’s address was certainly timely. Only 3 years ago Church Historian Marlin K. Jensen, addressing a Mormon studies group at Utah State University said, “top church leaders realize that, maybe, since Kirtland we've never had a period of, … apostasy, like we're having right now.” Wow. Modern apostasy, like took place in Kirtland! Just what is it he is talking about?

Today the Internet provides us with an unprecedented level of information, information that one can access in seconds. This has led to members being confronted with details of the Church’s past that have previously been unknown to them. And the Internet also provides a forum for discussion about these topics. Some of this information is troubling to some members and as a result they find themselves questioning long-held beliefs and reconsidering things they once thought they “knew” were true. This has become so common that we now have the term “faith crisis” to describe it. Maybe you know someone experiencing a faith crisis. Maybe you have a friend or even family member that has struggled this way, perhaps even one of your own children.

 

As you are probably aware, over the past year and a half the church has reacted with a series of essays published on its website, lds.org, to help those experiencing a crisis of faith. I applaud the Church for providing information on topics that have been particularly troubling for some, such as polygamy, blacks and the priesthood, the Book of Abraham, differing versions of the First Vision, etc. We now can easily determine what the Church acknowledges as factual, without worrying whether the information is credible or “anti-Mormon”. However, for many, the essays aren’t enough, or they simply provide validation that their concerns are legitimate.

 

For those enduring a crisis of faith, the journey can be extremely lonely. These individuals often feel they cannot go to church leaders for answers, or have found answers given to them by church leaders to be unsatisfactory. And our typical reaction is to try to correct the doubter, tell them where they are going wrong and bear testimony, which for someone steeped in the traditions of the church isn’t terribly effective and is usually interpreted as an unwillingness to listen and understand their concerns. And of course the struggling member stays silent about doubts during discussions at church. There simply isn’t a venue to openly discuss them. Social pressures, especially here in Utah can be enormous and people often fear for how a spouse or children will be treated if people see them as a non-believer. Generally speaking, members going through a faith crisis love the church, and love the people in the church, but don’t feel they can be honest with other members about their doubts, their struggles to believe. There may be some here listening to me now that find themselves in that situation.

 

Last week our good Bishop, Bishop Alder, reminded us that the Gospel is simple. Christ provided us an example to love one another and serve one another. And when we follow His example, we not only bring joy to others, but we find peace and happiness in this life. The Gospel is simple. I couldn’t agree more with the Bishop.

 

But let’s be honest. While the Gospel is simple, being a card carrying member of the church isn’t. We have to not only obey the commandments common to all Christians, but we have our own extra set, including the Word of Wisdom and Tithing. And we have to declare to church leaders that we keep these various commandments and believe specific points of doctrine in order to get a temple recommend. And we need that temple recommend because without it we can’t receive the ordinances necessary to go to heaven or be sealed to our family.

 

It is easy to see how all of this can foster unhealthy attitudes among members. If someone isn’t a temple-goer, then they must not be living the commandments, or they must not have a strong testimony. Then we have callings. And it is easy to see who magnifies their calling and who doesn’t, right? And if anyone ever sees someone drinking coffee or alcohol, or having a smoke, well that kind of news spreads like wildfire. And we are so busy concerning ourselves with all these trivial things that we completely forget about the two greatest commandments. And as a side note, isn’t it ironic that the two greatest commandments aren’t even a part of the temple recommend interview?

 

Now to be clear, I love everyone in this ward and I don’t mean to say that that there is anyone here who is intentionally judgmental, or intolerant. However, as a whole I believe we church members have a tendency to create a model in our mind of the perfect Mormon, or of the perfect Mormon couple, or the perfect family. And once we have this model in our head it is easy to tell who resembles that model and who doesn’t. And those that don’t fit the model know it, and they feel it from the other members.

 

There was a time after my divorce where being a member of the church was difficult. For me, it was not a matter of belief, or commitment to keeping the commandments, but a matter of fitting in. Certainly I wasn’t mistreated, people were friendly enough, but I think they simply did not know what to do with me, a single dad with 3 kids. And I understood, because prior to my divorce I always thought anyone who was divorced was a loser. Now I was that loser.

 

It wasn’t just that people didn’t know what to say, or that no one invited me over for dinner, or things like that. I just didn’t “belong”. The social events were always awkward and the lessons in Priesthood and Sunday School often left me feeling uncomfortable. I recall one occasion when a well-meaning Elders Quorum instructor basically warned the quorum that they could end up just like me if they didn’t live up to their responsibilities as husbands and fathers. Gee, Thanks a lot! And although I faithfully attended that ward for over 3 years I was never extended a calling.

Now I am not resentful of any of these people. I know none of them were intentionally insensitive. However, given that experience, I cannot imagine the courage of active members whose circumstances put them even further out from the Mormon norm, such as gay and lesbian members, or members struggling with addictions or substance abuse.

 

The other day at a family party I was speaking to my 22 year old nephew. He is a really nice kid, intelligent and thoughtful. I started quizzing him about the usual stuff: school, work, girls – like you do when you see your nephew only 2 or 3 times a year. Now this guy was raised in the church and definitely identifies himself as Mormon, but for various reasons hasn’t been active for quite a few years. I told him he should go to the singles ward, you know, for the girls. And while he acknowledged that there are a lot of “hot” Mormon girls at the singles wards who he would love to date, he dryly explained that none of them would be interested in him. As he explained, the girls in the singles ward all have their list of requirements for men they want to date and because he hasn’t been active and is not exactly the “believing” type, none of them would want to date him. I tried to tell him that there are all kinds of degrees of Mormons and that surely there were girls in the singles ward that were his same level of Mormon-ness.

 

But the truth is, he is right and it breaks my heart for him. Although there are a lot of flavors of Mormons, there are only a couple flavors of Mormons that tend to be active. We unintentionally make it really hard for the others. We inadvertently push people like my nephew away. And I think that is really too bad. I wish so badly that all flavors of Mormons could feel comfortable participating.

 

For example, would it be so bad if the guy that occasionally grabs a beer after work also shows up at church every week? And no one cared (I mean about the beer, we obviously want to care about the person)? Or would it be so bad if in Elders Quorum someone expresses disbelief about the Angel and the flaming sword that they read about in the essay on lds.org, and everyone is absolutely fine to talk about it? And wouldn’t it be great if someone says they are of the opinion that women should be ordained, and they are allowed to simply share their opinion without being castigated or receive an invitation to speak with the Bishop or Stake President? Wouldn’t it be a good thing if we as a church could tolerate a wide range of differing opinions, and variance in beliefs amongst ourselves? Can this not be a place for all flavors of Mormons? From those that walk in lock-step with the Prophet to those that are perhaps Mormon in culture but maybe even struggle to believe in god?

 

If what Brother Marlin Jenson said about the modern apostasy is true, we should be doing everything we can to open our arms, open our hearts, and open our minds to these brothers and sisters. The church has so many wonderful blessings to offer all varieties of Mormons. If only we can make a place for everyone.

 

Christ taught over and over again that we should be loving, non-judgmental, and accepting of others. To the dismay of the Pharisees, the Savior associated with the publicans and sinners, even sitting down to break bread with them. From the Book of Mormon we are taught that Christ invites “…all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God…”

 

Coming back to President Uchtdorf’s talk, I believe it is not enough to tell struggling members that there is “yet a place for [them] here”. No, we must also ensure that there really is a place for them. A place where they feel valued regardless how near or far their beliefs are from the mainstream members. A place where not only testimonies can be shared, but doubts can be expressed honestly and sincerely. A place where friendship is not contingent upon belief. A place where people are accepted regardless whether their lifestyle is exactly “in line” with the church’s “standards”. A place where regardless of opinions they can be shared without fear of judgment. A place where all the good the church has to offer can be imparted without bias. In short, a place where the members on the margins don’t have to feel marginalized.

 

It is my prayer, that President Uchtdorf’s message can be taken to heart, both by those that have separated themselves from the church, and by those who can help make a place for them to “come join with us”.

 

 

While I can deeply appreciate this brother's sentiments, I can actually envision scenarios where the leaven of doubt, disaffection and disobedience of the spiritually weak could eventually affect congregations in very negative ways, with whole wards being seriously harmed unless the people doing the nurturing are very strong and stable in the faith. It must never be forgotten that in the Church of Christ compassion is of paramount importance; nevertheless, the Lord cannot save men in their sins, He can only save men from their sins.

 

People with the kinds of spiritual and emotional problems the author cites should be kindly encouraged to move forward in faith and obedience to the Gospel and not just enabled in their weaknesses, like the many who are stuck forever on the dole because the misplaced sympathy of others never encourages them to break the cycle of welfare dependence. Again, the bottom line here is that the members who nurture the weak must be strong, wise, not easily manipulated and have their feet planted firmly on higher spiritual ground.

 

I used to make it a practice to succor the weak in ways most of my ward members thought to be too generous and overly kind. In doing so I was often stung in painful ways, while those I was trying help never seemed to improve toward the better. There has to be genuine spiritual discernment and an inspired balance approach of compassion in order to make President Uchtdorf's vision actually work. 

Edited January 6, 2015 by teddyaware

[Guest]

There are very good points, but like many he passes judgement of members and leaders, as if he can read the minds of friends, leaders and members. The simple truth is people often don't know what to say. Drinking is not trival, the can lead to health problems as does smoking. But that aside, maybe people don't know what to say. You're friend needs to not pass judgement for others from the pulpit also did the Bishopric tell him or others they were concerned...or is that more mind reading. It is odd that anyone to consider themselves perfect and worthy to judge others. In my 38 years, I have encountered few who claim this gift or right. I am concerned with self appointed people claim they are the model member and assume everyone (or the majority) is behind or beneath them.

[bluebell]

Like teddy said, I like much of his message, but I do think its important for all of us to be encouraged to overcome our sins.

I don't want or need people telling me I'm perfect just how I am. It's not true and it's detrimental to my well being.

Beyond that, it always makes me a little uncomfortable when someone at church appoints themselves as the spokesman for fixing everything they don't agree with, especially when it involves teaching their own opinions on how things should be over the pulpit as if it's doctrine.

Edited January 6, 2015 by bluebell

[jana at jade house]

I guess none of you live in the EU.  My church unit includes all comers, and all flavors.  Because I was converted in the US where the one-size-fits-all model is taught, I find myself being critical when it truly is NONE of my business.  We need to treat each other AS IF we were beloved by the Father...oh wait, everyone is beloved  by the Father, so who are we to judge unless we have authority.  I like the talk; it makes the listener think about stone throwing.

[Uncle Dale]

Like teddy said, I like much of his message, but I do think its important for all of us to be encouraged to overcome our sins.

...

 

 

Well, I seem to recall that something like this was once published:

 

"He that sinneth and repenteth not, shall be cast out of the church..."

 

Sounds pretty severe to me -- and I'm not sure how a Bishop or

Branch President would know, with assurance, that any particular

member was doing something wrong and failing to repent properly.

 

I've witnessed something like this among the Reorganized LDS --

a member standing on the podium (or in the pulpit) and either

accusing folks of sinning, or excusing them from such things.

 

The excusing can be just as unsettling as the accusing. But what

can be done, if the speaker is a high priest, or a seventy, and

"outranks" leader of the congregation and his counsellors?

 

If Latter Day Saint congregations are to be a "house of order,"

it seems likely that the public expression of diverse opinions

(or judgments) might quickly go awry.

 

Then again, what do I know? "Diverse opinion" seems to be

my middle name...

 

UD

[Avatar4321]

You know, maybe its just me but I've never seen a one size fits all attitude in the wards I've been in. Everyone of us are individuals. We all have needs. I don't see people judging others

[Boanerges]

I feel and believe much as your friend and have given very similar talks, including a stake conference address. I recognize there are some who don't like the idea that the church can embrace those who are not fully on board, those who do not necessarily espouse the majority point of view, and yes, those who "live in sin." I'm sorry for those people, because as the church matures through its adolescent years and truly refocuses on the core principles of the Gospel of Jesus Christ they are going to be the ones feeling like they are on the fringe. The church is moving beyond the McKay/McConkie/Kimball era, and it needs to. Guys like Uchtdorf, Ballard, and Chirstofferson are leading the charge and will soon be in the majority of the upper leadership. Even guys like Monson and Oaks speak much differently and more softly than they did 15-20 years ago, with Monson's messages of late being very focused on loving our neighbors. We are no longer a church of Utah controlled by Utahns, and the upper leadership (many of them now not from Utah) recognizes this - it's about time the majority of the Utah membership recognizes it as well.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Boanerges

[BCSpace]

I agree with the gist of the talk though there are multiple false teachings in it such as the stuff on judging others. I also find it offensive that if I try to correct someone, I must somehow be a judgemental person in a bad way, not having their best interests in mind, and that I somehow would not accept a person who occaisionally swills a beer comming to Church. But don't worry, I won't feel alienated and stay away from Church if you do feel that way about me.

 

I am also reminded of the blog post in the OP of Scott Lloyd's thread on why the youth leave which says in part:

 

Instead of indiscriminately accepting diversity or declaring that all points of view are equally valid, we ought to be discussing when diversity is good and when is it bad, what sorts of diversity are beneficial and which types are not, and what are the long-term consequences of various points of view. We ought to be clarifying the consequences of moral agency and stressing accountability. We ought to be paying attention to the consequences of choices and teaching those consequences. 

 

I also have daughters.  How am I wrong to teach and expect them to marry active, believing, practicing members of the Church? How am I wrong to be concerned not only for their welfare and salvation, but for the welfare and salvation of their children (my grandchildren)? Why would I want or tolerate them being handicapped into a situation of sin and unbelief? Why should I not bury 95% their suitors head first and deep in the North East corner of my backyard?

 

Since we are in the area of doubting God, look at nature instead. Do not most animals select the best mates? Isn't it true that many males with dubious traits practice every trick in the book to mate when they can't do so under normal circumstances?  This talk sounds like one of those attempts.

 

As for discussing off the beaten track topics in Priesthood, I'm all for it. Those boring old (and young in the case of the Elder's Quorum) sleepy heads need something to stir up the blood, stretch their testimonies, and give them a reason to frantically study the doctrine and the scriptures. However, yes, false doctrines should be castigated until it can be proven otherwise. It's just part of the territory.

Edited January 9, 2015 by BCSpace

[AllFlavors]

Thank you all for your comments!  

 

I wanted to post it here in Dialogue because I knew my friend would get feedback from those who may not completely agree with his approach.  At this point, he is getting a lot of 'ada-a-boys', but not much direct criticism.  I am sure some would like to say something but really don't know what to say... I imagine it is bit awkward.  

 

Chad has not had the opportunity to speak with his bishop about it yet... when he does I will let you know what he says.

 

I can see how this talk can come across as judgmental.  I have to say it seemed even more so listening to it in Sac Meeting.  Like my wife sometimes says to me, 'you are judging those you think are judging you'.  What is that all about, is judging just what we do?  My friend said that he spent hours and hours trying to work out the judgement, but I think all hard topic with strong opinions, (accusing or excusing Uncle D), will come across to someone, depending on your position, as judgmental.

 

We walk a fine line in assuring we are productive in helping each other live better lives while accepting the fact that we are all on different paths.  Its a tricky business. 

 

[Duncan]

it's funny because I was asked to give a talk next week in a ward that I grew up in that basically has a lot of problems with racism, mysogyny and making fun of other religions. Last month the ward mission leader gagged a sister missionary in class and people complained to the Bishop but apparently he blew it off ( I know the sister and she said no one said anything to her about it despite her complaint) a missionary here now was just over there and they brought an investigator to church who is from Pakistan and a member told the missionaries to 'pat him down for bombs' , serious or not you don't tell anyone that in front of them or not and the racist slurs i've heard personally then and now is making me sick, the ward mission leader is a piggish guy and says revolting things to the sisters. it just seems anything goes.  I am going to address all these issues, hopefully not to judge but to share some basic principles that they seem to not know or need to be reminded of. if you see a giant puff of smoke from my direction you'll know why

[Rain]

Thank you all for your comments!

I wanted to post it here in Dialogue because I knew my friend would get feedback from those who may not completely agree with his approach. At this point, he is getting a lot of 'ada-a-boys', but not much direct criticism. I am sure some would like to say something but really don't know what to say... I imagine it is bit awkward.

The only feedback he really needs is from the Lord about whether he said what the Lord wanted him to say with the Spirit.

I've known this for some time, but is is so much more clear to me since doing a combined lesson in 6 of the wards in our stake so far. I've got feedback in every ward from ward members, but the feedback I have received from the Lord trumps that so much more than I thought. There were wards where I spoke with the Spirit and wards where I spoke with the Spirit...sometimes. What a difference it made.

One other thing I have found it that I feel prompted to share different things sometimes to some of the wards.

So it's fun to get other feedback, but the best feedback comes from the Lord and the people who the Lord intended to hear it. If Chad and the ward members were edified then it was a good thing.

[Jeanne]

I love this.  I am pushing 6o now, but imagine my surprise as a 18 and/or 19 year old girl out in the world finding out (and shocked) that the different people I met at college on all levels..were good people.  The smoker...was the biggest giver..the one who asked so many questions, though inactive, was the most sincere about finding answers.  I know that people don't mean to hurt..or it is a cultural thing to make assumptions, but think of the people who really want to be there that feels the extreme of not belonging to a cummunity of people because of being on a different level.  Why is this so hard for mormons and other religions even..when we discuss the fallibility of our leaders?

[AllFlavors]

The only feedback he really needs is from the Lord about whether he said what the Lord wanted him to say with the Spirit.

I've known this for some time, but is is so much more clear to me since doing a combined lesson in 6 of the wards in our stake so far. I've got feedback in every ward from ward members, but the feedback I have received from the Lord trumps that so much more than I thought. There were wards where I spoke with the Spirit and wards where I spoke with the Spirit...sometimes. What a difference it made.

One other thing I have found it that I feel prompted to share different things sometimes to some of the wards.

So it's fun to get other feedback, but the best feedback comes from the Lord and the people who the Lord intended to hear it. If Chad and the ward members were edified then it was a good thing.

Cant argue with that... and well said.

[AllFlavors]

it's funny because I was asked to give a talk next week in a ward that I grew up in that basically has a lot of problems with racism, mysogyny and making fun of other religions. Last month the ward mission leader gagged a sister missionary in class and people complained to the Bishop but apparently he blew it off ( I know the sister and she said no one said anything to her about it despite her complaint) a missionary here now was just over there and they brought an investigator to church who is from Pakistan and a member told the missionaries to 'pat him down for bombs' , serious or not you don't tell anyone that in front of them or not and the racist slurs i've heard personally then and now is making me sick, the ward mission leader is a piggish guy and says revolting things to the sisters. it just seems anything goes.  I am going to address all these issues, hopefully not to judge but to share some basic principles that they seem to not know or need to be reminded of. if you see a giant puff of smoke from my direction you'll know why

Good luck with your talk.  I hope you find the words that touch people's hearts.  Unfortunately some individuals are stupid and ignorant, but be careful assuming all are stupid and ignorant.  Like folks in my ward, many are just not sensitive to actions they take that are racist or can be viewed as racist.  

 

I live in a part of the Salt Lake Valley that has a larger portion of minorities.  We put flags up on holidays and when I became involved with the Young Men I found out they did not put flags up on MLK day.  Of course they did put them up on Labor Day!  The YM Pres said it was too cold to put flags up on that day.  

 

I am sure, civil right issues have not directly impacted most of these members and they don't give it a second thought.  However this act of omission is insensitive to how important it is to many of our neighbors.  The importance of civil rights on the evolution of mankind towards true Christian love cannot be overstated, but not viewed that way by most members I know.  Thankfully after discussion it was obvious that we needed to put flags up and you will find them on many lawns next Monday morning.  

[Buzzard]

I guess none of you live in the EU.  My church unit includes all comers, and all flavors.  Because I was converted in the US where the one-size-fits-all model is taught, I find myself being critical when it truly is NONE of my business.  We need to treat each other AS IF we were beloved by the Father...oh wait, everyone is beloved  by the Father, so who are we to judge unless we have authority.  I like the talk; it makes the listener think about stone throwing.

Back when I served in France a few decades ago, the week before the election, the branch president mentioned in casual conversation that he was voting Socialist. One of the Elders in the ward was aghast, and asked him if his wife knew about his party preferences.  He said she would be voting Communist.  Except for that one Elder, we all had a good chuckle over the differences in European members vs. American, but that one missionary wondered how a man with those political convictions could ever be in a leadership position.