Boa - Catalyst And Missing Papyrus Theories Both Deeply Flawed

[DBMormon]

DB, if I may add one more thing here. I have been on this board for coming up on two years now, and I think you, unfairly at times, like to play the role of victim. From my perspective you have a lot of pet issues (gross vs. net, BOA, April 6, etc.), and you are particularly defensive when someone has a different way or method of examining the issue than you do. My initial response was basically, "I don't know the hows and whys but I have faith the BOA is the word of God." You didn't like that and, quite offensively I might add, equated my faith (basically calling it blind faith) to a belief in a flying spaghetti monster. That is going to result in some push back when you are as condescending as you sometimes are to other people's perspective. You are smart guy and your experiences and testimony make you a valuable member of the Church...just like the rest of us. But your attitude about other peoples views and perspectives gives off an impression that its your way or nothing, and if others don't have a problem with the issues you do than for one reason or another they are misguided, wrong, or worse. I believe the BOA to be the word of God, but you seem dead set on not letting me have that faith. Again, just because you can't or wont have that same faith based on the evidence doesn't mean that I can't and that my faith is ill placed and fruitless. 

 

No offense was intended by this post. I like you and I have defended you on this board in the past. Just some thoughts for what they are worth.

I hear you and no offense taken.  I agree with you to some extent.  Where I disagree is with the "my way or the highway".  I am happy to validate other's views.  Heck, I have stolen many of my views from others.  What I won't tolerate is being handed a 3rd graders clay statue and accept the person giving it to me telling me it is a Picasso without my ability to call them on that.  If the view one holds is severely flawed, I ask that they acknowledge the view is flawed.  Don't pressure me to validate it as a valid view to hold.  If it can not stand on it's own merit, then it must either be tossed aside or atleaset acknolwedge that your going with it in spite of it inability to hold water.  Say "I know the catalyst theory has some severe issues.  I still choose to believe it."  I would accept that in a second.  

[DBMormon]

I don't know. How's that for an answer?

 

Also, for the record, I do believe in a God who purposefully makes it hard to have faith. So...yeah.

For the record I am not pointing my frustration at you as if your the problem.  Rather I am using your posts as a way to address many in this thread.  While I fervently disagree with parts of what your saying, I also agree with many parts as well.

[DBMormon]

***Exasperated Sigh***

 

So what answer can I give you that will make you happy? Because you clearly don't like that I have faith that the BOA is the word of God. I am not sure why, but you clearly don't.

I have faith too that it is the word of God.  the difference is I admit openly that it takes me Mental Gymnastics to get there.  I have no problem with your conclusion or the conclusion of any other believer on this board. My issue is with our reluctance to admit the flaws in our faith's paradigm and narrative.   I should add, That I also think to disbelieve has flaws and even atheisim is not without deep flaws in it's rationale and evidence.  

Edited November 14, 2014 by DBMormon

[Brian 2.0]

Joseph said he was translating the papyri.  He was sure he was.  He translated the facsimiles and then we claim hew wasn't translating the papyri and God must have given him an alternative translation of the papyri and yet you say there are no mental gymnastics in your faith.

 

We say Joseph married a an older teen (Fanny Alger) and those around him thought it was an affair and it occurred before sealing keys were given and it produced no righteous seed and we rationally explain it away but use no mental gymnastics in doing so.

 

We declared blacks as less valiant and said it was Doctrine and now it isn't and somehow that is just explained simply and clear cut.

 

God said stop practicing polygamy in 1890 and we continued but that is explained simply as God didn't mean to do it right away but rather allowed us to continue.

 

Then entire essay on the BOA is mental gymnastics.

 

To us in the moment it may seem like reasonable intellectual explanations.... but it is hard to see the forest from the trees.  In reality all religions have and depend on some mental gymnastics. (again don't misquote me, I am a believer and a faithful member)

 

DB.  When I read your posts or listen to your podcasts I think we are seeing the evidences a lot of times the same way.  We see the problems, we see the flaws, we see the poor apologetics or mental gymnastics.  I think we agree on A LOT.

 

Yet you are a believer and a faithful member.  And I am now a non-believer and inactive member.

 

Why I went one way and you went the other... that's is the interesting part.  That's what it all comes down to in the end.  There is no magical paradigm or way to lay out the arguments that will really make a difference in the end.  

 

You're either adding spiritual witnesses from God into the mix or you are not.  

[DBMormon]

DB.  When I read your posts or listen to your podcasts I think we are seeing the evidences a lot of times the same way.  We see the problems, we see the flaws, we see the poor apologetics or mental gymnastics.  I think we agree on A LOT.

 

Yet you are a believer and a faithful member.  And I am now a non-believer and inactive member.

 

Why I went one way and you went the other... that's is the interesting part.  That's what it all comes down to in the end.  There is no magical paradigm or way to lay out the arguments that will really make a difference in the end.  

 

You're either adding spiritual witnesses from God into the mix or you are not.  

That really is the maker or breaker which is why it breaks my heart that some did not get the spiritual answer I and others have.  I am no better than you brian.... likely much worse.  The Irony of some getting an answer of undeniable magnitude and staying and others being left to their own and leaving bewilders me.  You my friend are no tare and I appreciate you.

[Mystery Meat]

I hear you and no offense taken.  I agree with you to some extent.  Where I disagree is with the "my way or the highway".  I am happy to validate other's views.  Heck, I have stolen many of my views from others.  What I won't tolerate is being handed a 3rd graders clay statue and accept the person giving it to me telling me it is a Picasso without my ability to call them on that.  If the view one holds is severely flawed, I ask that they acknowledge the view is flawed.  Don't pressure me to validate it as a valid view to hold.  If it can not stand on it's own merit, then it must either be tossed aside or atleaset acknolwedge that your going with it in spite of it inability to hold water.  Say "I know the catalyst theory has some severe issues.  I still choose to believe it."  I would accept that in a second.  

 

Fair enough. I think that is what I have been saying this whole time. Though I do think the catalyst theory holds some water. That doesn't mean it is a seamless answer.

 

 

 

For the record I am not pointing my frustration at you as if your the problem.  Rather I am using your posts as a way to address many in this thread.  While I fervently disagree with parts of what your saying, I also agree with many parts as well.

 

Perfectly acceptable to me.

 

 

 

I have faith too that it is the word of God.  the difference is I admit openly that it takes me Mental Gymnastics to get there.  I have no problem with your conclusion or the conclusion of any other believer on this board. My issue is with our reluctance to admit the flaws in our faith's paradigm and narrative.   I should add, That I also think to disbelieve has flaws and even atheisim is not without deep flaws in it's rationale and evidence. 

 

I guess at this point is a matter of semantics. What you call mental gymnastics I call faith. I think we actually largely agree that there are issues with a lot of stuff that require faith. I think that is not an accident. I have no problem admiting that when viewed in a vacuum, without considering other sources of information, there is no logical way that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, or even the Redeemer himself were who they said they were. Fortunately, there are other sources of evidence and information. 

[Brian 2.0]

DB, don't want to put words into your mouth, but here it goes... It often feels like you want people, or the church even, to say "We know this is a less likely explanation for the evidence, but we believe it out of faith.  There are other more probable and reasonable arguments, but we're believing this less probable one because God told us it was right."

 

Deep down, I often want people to say that.  But I think it's my ego just wanting other people to say that I'm following the "most logical or reasonable" path.  It's like I'm cool to agree to disagree, but I still want them to acknowledge that I'm right if we took spiritual witnesses out of it -- and that's a fruitless quest I've found.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Brian 2.0

[Brian 2.0]

You my friend are no tare and I appreciate you.

 

Thanks, brother.  And right back at you.

[Mystery Meat]

That really is the maker or breaker which is why it breaks my heart that some did not get the spiritual answer I and others have.  I am no better than you brian.... likely much worse.  The Irony of some getting an answer of undeniable magnitude and staying and others being left to their own and leaving bewilders me.  You my friend are no tare and I appreciate you.

 

I have often felt the same way about people I know (and I am sure Brian as well). They are better Mormons than I am, so why did I get an answer?

[DBMormon]

DB, don't want to put words into your mouth, but here it goes... It often feels like you want people, or the church even, to say "We know this is a less likely explanation for the evidence, but we believe it out of faith.  There are other more probable and reasonable arguments, but we're believing this less probable one because God told us it was right."

 

Deep down, I often want people to say that.  But I think it's my ego just wanting other people to say that I'm following the "most logical or reasonable" path.  It's like I'm cool to agree to disagree, but I still want them to acknowledge that I'm right if we took spiritual witnesses out of it -- and that's a fruitless quest I've found.

I agree

[rodheadlee]

What is disgusting is how many people are walking around holding TRs, denying me a TR that don't even believe the BOA, BoM, the Pearl of Great Price or the D&C to be a truthful account, simply because my weakness is addiction to tobacco. People have some integrity, if you don't believe in the Priesthood, Eternal Marriage, The BoM, the sealing power of the keyholders turn in your TR, stop being a hypocrite or are you just hedging your bets?. Do  you think they call it the Pearl of Great Price for nothing?

[SeekingUnderstanding]

I don't know. How's that for an answer?

 

Also, for the record, I do believe in a God who purposefully makes it hard to have faith. So...yeah.

This is interesting. So is there any limit to this? This example is extreme and a bit of a derail, so sorry. But lets take members of the People's Temple of the Disciples of Christ. These people believed in Jim Jones, followed Jim Jones.There was a lot of evidence that Jim wasn't quite right in the head. I am sure that these people doubted their doubts before doubting their faith. So will they be rewarded in Heaven for persisting in faith despite doubts (not to mention lots of evidence to the contrary) and committing mass suicide?

 

How do we differentiate between times when God is purposefully making it hard to have faith and when God is trying to give us clues that something that we believe isn't true?

Edited November 14, 2014 by SeekingUnderstanding

[The Nehor]

How do we differentiate between times when God is purposefully making it hard to have faith and when God is trying to give us clues that something that we believe isn't true?

 

Holy Ghost.

[Tacenda]

What is disgusting is how many people are walking around holding TRs, denying me a TR that don't even believe the BOA, BoM, the Pearl of Great Price or the D&C to be a truthful account, simply because my weakness is addiction to tobacco. People have some integrity, if you don't believe in the Priesthood, Eternal Marriage, The BoM, the sealing power of the keyholders turn in your TR, stop being a hypocrite or are you just hedging your bets?. Do  you think they call it the Pearl of Great Price for nothing?

I let mine elapse, if that helps.  But I remember being told to strengthen our testimonies by attending the temple often, so who knows.  But I get your drift, and can't understand how a stupid smoking habit can ruin that, but I guess it helps one get in line with being Godly, though really that's not where it's at - at all, IMO. 

 

I remember when I went through the temple to take out my endowments before marriage, my Dad needed to get a current recommend in order to attend.  He was a habitual coffee drinker.  So he gets one but only if he drinks Sanka or decaf coffee.  It boggled my mind because even back then I was a habitual tab, coke or dr. pepper drinker.  I mentioned to someone in my ward about this in conversation and she said, it's more the appearance of evil, that of drinking coffee that is the problem.  And that drinking coffee usually goes hand in hand with smoking sometimes.  So it was really tough because my Dad was such a good man, it was just that one thing, that of appearing evil.  Which didn't seem right.  But he never shared his testimony with me and didn't seem too worried about maintaining a recommend so who knows.    

[cinepro]

It may be that God's ways are such that we will not be able to figure them out at all. There may never be a non-problematic argument. So, with the arguments before us, where do we go?

 

If someone makes a claim and doesn't have good evidence to support the claim, then the logical thing to do is to withhold belief until such evidence is presented. 

[Brian 2.0]

What is disgusting is how many people are walking around holding TRs, denying me a TR that don't even believe the BOA, BoM, the Pearl of Great Price or the D&C to be a truthful account, simply because my weakness is addiction to tobacco. People have some integrity, if you don't believe in the Priesthood, Eternal Marriage, The BoM, the sealing power of the keyholders turn in your TR, stop being a hypocrite or are you just hedging your bets?. Do  you think they call it the Pearl of Great Price for nothing?

 

There was no one I knew more that loved the BOM, read the BOM, and constantly counseled his grandkids to read the BOM than my grandfather.  But he also smoked and just couldn't quit as he often tried and so he missed the temple marriage of every one of his grandkids.

 

Sad.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

Holy Ghost.

This is a fair answer, but the holy ghost doesn't give me an unambiguous answer despite repeated efforts. So what then? I see many blessings in my life as a result of living the Gospel as taught by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints but to be honest, despite earnest effort, have never had a sure witness that this is God's one and only true church. I've had countless moments where I have felt what I'd call the spirit, but have also felt the spirit while watching a touching youtube videos featuring gays in committed relationships.

 

Testimony is such a fuzzy thing. We are often told a testimony is to be found in the bearing of it. A recent general conference talk even suggested recording Joseph's words in our own voice and playing it back over and over. If this is the way to get truth, to be fair shouldn't we be bearing our testimony of Muhammad too? 

 

This post is mainly rhetorical, and off topic to boot, so no need for a response. Just the rambling thoughts of a troubled soul with no answers.

Edited November 14, 2014 by SeekingUnderstanding

[stemelbow]

If someone makes a claim and doesn't have good evidence to support the claim, then the logical thing to do is to withhold belief until such evidence is presented.

Sure but if we all just wait around until any claim made is going to bare out to be 100% accurate we'll get nowhere. Where claims gain real traction is in testing them in the world of opinion.

[cdowis]

you shouldn't dethrone a theory without re-enthroning another one. So, based on everything that Joseph Smith and others said ( I am assuming you've read everything) where do you think the BOA came from? 

 

Tvednes' mnemonic theory, as described in other threads.

[cdowis]

If someone makes a claim and doesn't have good evidence to support the claim, then the logical thing to do is to withhold belief until such evidence is presented. 

 

Exactly what constitutes "good evidence" for supernatural claims, such as the First Vision.

[cdowis]

del

Edited November 19, 2014 by cdowis

[stemelbow]

Exactly what constitutes "good evidence" for supernatural claims, such as the First Vision.

excellent.

[KevinG]

This. We have to faith. It really is that simple. God wants it to be that way. If you have to find a 100% logical explanation for everything before you can practice faith...well I would suggest that is not faith.

 

Alma agrees.

[teddyaware]

Frankly I don't reconcile it at all. I don't believe it to be the word of God and I do not reference it ever in any lesson or any talk. I dismiss any part of anything I read where it is used as evidence.

 

However, please do not construe this to mean I don't believe Joseph Smith was a prophet, because I do believe he was a prophet. And, I have never been asked in any interview, temple or otherwise, if I believe the Book of Abraham to be the word of God or anything else about it. Lastly, the Book of Abraham is also not mentioned as a standard in the Articles of Faith. I say this in recognition of the fact that one can be a good and faithful member of the church without believing in the Book of Abraham - and a few other things.

 

As I read the above, I imagined a large fortress under heavy siege and the enemy, employing a catapult, cast a large boulder at the fortress wall that succeeded in creating a small but not insignificant breach.

[DBMormon]

Holy Ghost.

which all faiths feel and which many who err think they were led by..... got it.  that was simple