New Gospel Topic Essays - Polygamy

[cinepro]

The next thing the Church needs to do is fix this page. (Click on the "Significant Events" for each prophet from Joseph Smith to George Albert Smith and see if you notice something odd...)

 

Then click on Joseph Fielding Smith and Harold B. Lee and see if you notice anything even stranger.

Edited October 22, 2014 by cinepro

[Scott Lloyd]

And how! 

 

If someone told me that the Church would publish an essay on its website that acknowledges that plural marriage was illegal in Nauvoo, Joseph and the others practiced it in secret (and made dishonest public statements), Joseph did marry a 14 year old (oh, I'm sorry, "Someone who was a few months shy of her 15th birthday" ) and Joseph didn't tell his wife Emma about his sealings, I wouldn't have believed them.

Scoundrels! Hiding the fact she was 14 by saying "several months before her 15th birthday." Who's  going to be able to figure that out?

Edited October 23, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[KevinG]

Don't worry the critics will still use present ism to portray Joseph as a rutting cad.

It would be fun to do family history research on the most virulent critics of Joseph's child brides and see how many there are in their own ancestry. I'm mean that way.

[JAHS]

Sexist much?

 

This says a lot more about what people think about a woman's place in a man's world than it does polygamy!

No, Adultery much.

[Scott Lloyd]

Don't worry the critics will still use present ism to portray Joseph as a rutting cad.

It would be fun to do family history research on the most virulent critics of Joseph's child brides and see how many there are in their own ancestry. I'm mean that way.

Incidentally, I wonder how many of the "virulent critics" bother to point out -- as the new essay does -- that even after the sealing, Helen continued to live with her parents, that it was "for eternity only" and that it thus likely never involved marital relations.

 

Just who is hiding what?

Edited October 22, 2014 by Scott Lloyd

[canard78]

Sorry I wasn't accusing Canard of conspiracy theory. He asked a valid question and we all looked into it.

Don't worry. I'm putting Scott on ignore from now on. His pomp and self-importance is one of the things that put me off this forum last time round.

What's the Saturday Night Live line? "Oooh, look at me, I'm a Church News journalist, now gimme some candy."

[KevinG]

The personalities are what make this site fun! Don't ignore parry!

(I'm guessing that isn't the spirit of turn the other cheek, but I'm a little rebel)

[WysteriaBlue]

The next thing the Church needs to do is fix this page. (Click on the "Significant Events" for each prophet from Joseph Smith to George Albert Smith and see if you notice something odd...)

 

Then click on Joseph Fielding Smith and Harold B. Lee and see if you notice anything even stranger.

 

This may sound strange, but I did this for Joseph Smith and Brigham Young....it said Joseph Smith had a wife...not any others...

It never says that Brigham Young had a wife...let alone more than one...

Joseph F. Smith also does not have a wife or marriage listed....

Is this what you were asking about?

I'm confused....as usual apparently.

wb

[canard78]

The personalities are what make this site fun! Don't ignore parry!

(I'm guessing that isn't the spirit of turn the other cheek, but I'm a little rebel)

I suppose. I think I'll be better off enjoying the mute button for a while.

[KevinG]

This may sound strange, but I did this for Joseph Smith and Brigham Young....it said Joseph Smith had a wife...not any others...

It never says that Brigham Young had a wife...let alone more than one...

Joseph F. Smith also does not have a wife or marriage listed....

Is this what you were asking about?

I'm confused....as usual apparently.

wb

I think what he is saying is that we need to go back and update all occurrences of polygamy in all church publications RIgHT NOW! Of course if he were really concerned he'd be sending corrections to the church curricula correlation department I stead of sarcastic posts on MD&D.

Get to it Brother Cinepro. I expect a full list of needed corrections in the Church Education System departmental inbox by Sunday!

[Duncan]

The next thing the Church needs to do is fix this page. (Click on the "Significant Events" for each prophet from Joseph Smith to George Albert Smith and see if you notice something odd...)

 

Then click on Joseph Fielding Smith and Harold B. Lee and see if you notice anything even stranger.

 

correct me if I am wrong but wasn't Pres. George Albert Smith the first monogamist President of the Church? I haven't seen anywhere a list of his wives, but maybe someone else has?

[WysteriaBlue]

I'm glad that elder Cinepro has the wisdom to bother to look and send others to websites for references and examples than just call people stupid.

I find his methods of "teaching" much more enlightening than sarcasm.

His quiet wisdom and instruction is very effective indeed.

 

wb

[tonie]

Yet another instance of the Church hiding things in plain sight and encouraging its members to go find them.

What an ignorant post. Does a essay released just this year or even yesterday apply to decades of the Church being reluctant to discuss things or even not discussing them at all. Why is it that so many people first learn about these things from critics?

[VideoGameJunkie]

Would anyone here be ok with their wife being sealed to Joseph Smith for eternity while he already has a dozen wives and you have to give up your only one for eternity. How is that fair?

[Calm]

This may sound strange, but I did this for Joseph Smith and Brigham Young....it said Joseph Smith had a wife...not any others...

It never says that Brigham Young had a wife...let alone more than one...

Joseph F. Smith also does not have a wife or marriage listed....

Is this what you were asking about?

I'm confused....as usual apparently.

wb

Yep...the manuals and websites are not always consistent. Plus in the past IMO there has been greater concern for giving the impression it is okay to practice plural marriage now due to the break off apostate sects who practice polygamy now. I think the balance has shifted due to the more global nature of the Church, though leadership as been cautious because of the potential harm caused by misconceptions about the current appropriateness of polygamy.

I also believe that some curriculum writers went overboard on caution but I've never had a family member or friend join an apostate group so perhaps I am more relaxed about it then I should be.

PS: when the first manual on the teachings of the Prophets (it was Brigham Young) came out only the non plural wives of BY were mentioned, iirc, his first wife having died young, he married his second wife after her death. Plus sermons were edited without that fact being noted to "wife" when he had said "wives". Both caused a lot of comment and after that manuals of those prophets who engaged in plural marriage didn't mention any wives, iirc.

Edited October 22, 2014 by calmoriah

[KevinG]

What an ignorant post. Does a essay released just this year or even yesterday apply to decades of the Church being reluctant to discuss things or even not discussing them at all. Why is it that so many people first learn about these things from critics?

People with average reading skills and effort have known about these things for years. While I'm happy the church is using more detailed scholarly essays in It's web publications, they have never "hidden" anything, but instead put it on display in libraries, museums and CES publications.

Critics however are more than happy to cherry pick the least understood and most scandalous sounding things and present them in an attempt to shock and awe those whose reading has been limited to Sunday School topics, and not detailed study of the personal lives of the prophets.

Imagine the reception the Bible would get if you led with Lots daughters efforts to have children, and that whole awkward killing newly circumcised members episode.

I have always armed my children against the agitators with information easily found in published sources. But now I rejoice that arming people is as easy as providing a link to an official church source.

Scott may be snarky but his comment is far from ignorant.

[Tacenda]

People with average reading skills and effort have known about these things for years. While I'm happy the church is using more detailed scholarly essays in It's web publications, they have never "hidden" anything, but instead put it on display in libraries, museums and CES publications.

Critics however are more than happy to cherry pick the least understood and most scandalous sounding things and present them in an attempt to shock and awe those whose reading has been limited to Sunday School topics, and not detailed study of the personal lives of the prophets.

Imagine the reception the Bible would get if you led with Lots daughters efforts to have children, and that whole awkward killing newly circumcised members episode.

I have always armed my children against the agitators with information easily found in published sources. But now I rejoice that arming people is as easy as providing a link to an official church source.

Scott may be snarky but his comment is far from ignorant.

CFR, just need some references on the bold, to see what I missed, if you have the time.   

[KevinG]

Yep...the manuals and websites are not always consistent. Plus in the past IMO there has been greater concern for giving the impression it is okay to practice plural marriage now due to the break off apostate sects who practice polygamy now. I think the balance has shifted due to the more global nature of the Church, though leadership as been cautious because of the potential harm caused by misconceptions about the current appropriateness of polygamy.

I also believe that some curriculum writers went overboard on caution but I've never had a family member or friend join an apostate group so perhaps I am more relaxed about it then I should be.

There is that. And the fact that most church materials are about Gospel Basics, and even the manuals on the presidents of the church focused on their basic teachings applicable to us today, and not on other things like their complete descendent lists, their favorite pants, or their penchant for sweets.

[Jeanne]

I am very happy about this.  It has been difficult to navigate where all the info is whether in the Ensign or old Explorer Magazine and old Sunday School books.  This will make it so much easier for people to understand that really..we are not all crazy!!  That being said, if these kinds of things and/or essays had be more prevelant in my younger years, I would not have been so disillusioned.

 

Thank you LDS Church.

[KevinG]

CFR, just need some references on the bold, to see what I missed, if you have the time. 

History of the Church BH Roberts.

comprehensive History of the Church

institute Manuals I have from the 1980s and 1990s

Journal of Discourses

The church history library and museum In Salt Lake City

For starters...

One of my favorite things to tell critics who accuse us of hiding Joseph Smith's use of a pepper box pistol to defend himself inCarthage Jail, is to instruct them to visit the church History Museum, enter the front door, go to the first room on the right, and look to the left. The actual pistol is displayed in a case. The same pistol is referred to and pictured in The publication "Church History In The Fullmess Of Times" available to all members through the church publishing house since the 1980s.

[Calm]

Would anyone here be ok with their wife being sealed to Joseph Smith for eternity while he already has a dozen wives and you have to give up your only one for eternity. How is that fair?

Is there anywhere it is taught that men whose wives were sealed to Joseph never had the chance to be sealed to another woman?

I think there is something wrong when anyone looks at a spouse as a possession that can be given up or kept, whether for a lifetime or an eternity. I think it was wrong then and wrong when it happens now. Women are as active in a marriage relationship as men, they aren't given up or taken away. They either stay because they want to or leave because that is what they choose to do.

Personally I think most of us don't have a clue about what Joseph and others thought they were doing. Joseph was sealed to the wife of his dearly loved dead brother, for example. I don't see him in any way thinking he was doing himself a big favour while cheating his brother out of the love of his wife or the glory and delight of having children. Instead, it makes much more sense that in his mind he was creating a tighter, more loving bond with his brother through the sealing even if I don't understand why he thought it was supposed to be that way instead of how we do it now sealing families together.

But remember how we do it now didn't start until Pres. Woodruff so for whatever reason, God was okay with the confusion for awhile.

Edited October 22, 2014 by calmoriah

[VideoGameJunkie]

So Cal would you be ok with being sealed to the prophet as wife number 17?

[KevinG]

Agency and learning line by line can be a bit messy. But there is salvation to clean up the loose ends.

[KevinG]

So Cal would you be ok with being sealed to the prophet as wife number 17?

History is repleat with accounts of those who could not rationalize it logically but did so with faith in God, and reassurance of the Holy Spirit.

Look up "the four Zinas"

Since Cal has not been required to live the principle it may be unfair to ask her if she has a testimony of it.

And instead of continuing to ask answered questions you may want to take advantage of links and resources easily found here and other websites.

Edited October 22, 2014 by KevinG

[JLHPROF]

Would anyone here be ok with their wife being sealed to Joseph Smith for eternity while he already has a dozen wives and you have to give up your only one for eternity. How is that fair?

 

Because they understood this principle:

 

Lectures on Faith 6 -

Let us here observe, that a religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things, never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation; for from the first existence of man, the faith necessary unto the enjoyment of life and salvation never could be obtained without the sacrifice of all earthly things: it was through this sacrifice, and this only, that God has ordained that men should enjoy eternal life; and it is through the medium of the sacrifice of all earthly things, that men do actually know that they are doing the things that are well pleasing in the sight of God. When a man has offered in sacrifice all that he has, for the truth's sake, not even withholding his life, and believing before God that he has been called to make this sacrifice, because he seeks to do his will, he does know most assuredly, that God does and will accept his sacrifice & offering, & that he has not nor will not seek his face in vain. Under these circumstances, then, he can obtain the faith necessary for him to lay hold on eternal life.

 

AND

Luke 14:26 ^- If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

 

AND

 

Before he would trust even Heber with the full secret, however, he put him to a test which few men would have been able to bear.

It was no less than a requirement for him to surrender his wife, his beloved Vilate, and give her to Joseph in marriage!

Three days he fasted and wept and prayed. Then, with a broken and a bleeding heart, but with soul selfmastered for the sacrifice, he led his darling wife to the Prophet's house and presented her to Joseph.

It was enough—the heavens accepted the sacrifice. The will for the deed was taken, and "accounted unto him for righteousness." Joseph wept at this proof of devotion, and embracing Heber, told him that was all that the Lord required. He had proved him, as a child of Abraham, that he would "do the works of Abraham," holding back nothing, but laying all upon the altar for God's glory.

 

There is a principle in the gospel, sometimes called the Gethsemane principle, sometimes call the Abrahamic sacrifice, and sometimes given other names.  Sometimes God does require that we give up everything we have, family, friends, wealth, reputation.  Sometimes this is the price of our exaltation.  Sometimes as with Heber C. Kimball and Abraham it is merely a test.  Sometimes as with Job, we really do have to give up all.

 

Giving up my wife would be my Gethsemane.  I don't know if I'd be strong enough.  But we have to realise that God demands sacrifice and always has.