Was Polygamy A Church Mistake?

[JLHPROF]

I know Jesus will be just and fair, but a sealing is more than just a whim for me.

 

More respectfully,

wb

 

It is for me too.  (But I won't retell the story of Joseph's final plural wife...    It was something of a whim).

[Calm]

Thank you JLHProf....

Guess it is an emotional topic for me....I have heard of multiple sealings and non-mormon women just being wives to those that are widowed but not to be sealed as the men were already sealed to first wife and children... Of single women being indiscriminately sealed to men that were happily married and sealed in this estate, just so they wouldn't be left hanging.. Of women being sealed to single men that they didn't even know, etc. Such off the cuff remarks as "seal them all regardless" just scare me to no end. I'm sorry if I was over zealous in my response.

I know Jesus will be just and fair, but a sealing is more than just a whim for me.

More respectfully,

wb

The sealing all regardless means we can't know in most cases from records whether a marriage was a loving one or not, whether or not they want to be eternal companions...even for those sealed in the temple (people get divorced and temple cancellations after all). So we seal all and let those involved and God decide which ones are eternally in force or not. Those performing sealings have no power to force an unwanted relationship.

Sealings are eternal only if confirmed not only by those involved, but by the Holy Spirit. No one will be forced to marry a stranger. Exaltation which is required for eternal marriage means we are all one with God. We will know each other as God knows us. And we will, IMO, choose on the basis of that divine knowledge, without jealousy, without possessiveness, without doubt and with total live and commitment who we desire to spend eternity with and the feeling of pure love will be mutual. No one will feel as if they were second choice or just happened to be available.

Edited October 22, 2014 by calmoriah

[Guest]

That is a complete misread of D&C 132.

 

How did Joseph have this revealed to him so that he had to obey?  He was given D&C 132.

How would we have this revealed to us?  By being given D&C 132...oh look, there it is.  I believe it is a revelation.  I accept it as revelation from God.  I have had it revealed exactly the same as Joseph did.  It is no more secret to me than it was to Joseph.

 

Also, it is a historical misrepresentation to say that all the saints who lived plural marriage were called to do so.  The doctrine was taught and preached everywhere, and was open to any saint who was living worthy, whether they were called into it or not.

Sometimes people were called into it in order to receive a higher priesthood office.  Most entered it because it was a commandment, not a calling.

You miss Church history when Joseph "revealed" it to Brigham he felt like he would rather die that comply. OT to mention you start out by agreeing with me without knowing and then take a turn toward mocking what I said. In the beginning it was a calling, once in Utah when openly taught...all "worthy" Priesthood were called although more did not do so that took part in polygamy. If you are going to claim that we all have it revealed to us (as you suggest is such bold terms! Does this mean you are going to practice it, or if reinstated on some sad day, are you looking forward to doing so? Simply put polygamy is done in the Church. It was a commandment, but never will be again.

[WysteriaBlue]

Yep, liking this Calmoriah more and more....

[Calm]

Also, while sealings originally were not as dependent on actual marriage (relatives concerned for the eternal welfare of single individuals might have sealed them to those they weren't married to), record of marriage is required these days and only in rare exceptions of established intent to be married (but died before having the chance) are singled people sealed today.

[Guest]

Was polygamy a mistake?  Probably.  But good things can come from mistakes--like penicillin and silly putty.  

Looking back and seeing the millstone hanging around our necks as we try to swim the sea of our day...very well could be. But I believe it was a revelation. But it also brought out weakness in early Church Priesthood holders and abuses, which makes great and (grape) cannon fodder on the Internet today.

Quick trivia...why did I use the words "great and grape" in relation to cannon fodder?

[WysteriaBlue]

Does this then imply that we can never be exalted either?  Just asking...

 

Will be eternally alone and disconnected and pushed away from God?

 

[WysteriaBlue]

Great in terms of easily found and snarkily used...

Grape as in "like" buckshot and kills many arguments and needless suppositions with one big bang?

 

Just guessing...

[JLHPROF]

Simply put polygamy is done in the Church. It was a commandment, but never will be again.

 

I disagree, and don't believe there is any teaching, scripture or doctrine to back you up.

 

In fact, plural marriage is very much on the minds of the Church.

Three of our current apostles have been sealed to second wives after their first passed away.  Apostle Dallin Oaks has said he fully anticipates spending eternity with his two wives.

 

And while not official, Apostle McConkie taught that ""Obviously the holy practice (of polygamy) will commence again after the Second Coming of the Son of Man and the ushering in of the millennium."

Edited October 22, 2014 by JLHPROF

[teddyaware]

Or is it still a heavenly commandment for exaltation? D&C 132 talks about it and Brigham Young in his Journal of Discourses said that the only people who become gods are the ones that enter into polygamy. We don't practice it anymore, except for those that lose a loved one and then remarry like 2 of my uncles, but should worthy men members expect to be provided multiple wives in heaven to help populate their multiple worlds with spirit children? It does make sense, but it sounds kind of unfair to the women of the church. How does this all work out?

 

Oh it's going to be unfair alright. Don't let all that talk in the scriptures about exaltation being "a state of happiness that has no end" fool you. Sure, sure, the men will be happy, but the poor women will live lives of mind-numbing celestial drudgery. These poor '"exalted" washmaids will live dreary lives of endless monotony getting pregnant, having babies and nursing. There will be sleepless nights, child care, cooking, cleaning, washing, ironing, baking goodies, organizing, paying bills, food shopping, taking "the kids" to school and then to a mind boggling array of extracurricular activities, all the while doing what it takes to look pretty and fit. Meanwhile, their lazy and irresponsible husbands will be 'out' with 'the boys" goofing off playing celestial golf, celestial fishing, going to 'the game,' and otherwise "occupied" with a thousand other time-wasting "activities" that will leave their poor, overburdened wives feeling abandoned, taken advantage of and totally disillusioned. Yep, it's gonna be unfair alright. Let your imaginations run wild, and that's only the beginning of sorrows.  

Edited October 22, 2014 by teddyaware

[Guest]

Great in terms of easily found and snarkily used...

Grape as in "like" buckshot and kills many arguments and needless suppositions with one big bang?

 

Just guessing...

Very good...yes like "buckshot". When speaking among fellow Church members, "snarky" is just contention, which is not of The Lord. It is also used in an attempt to browbeat others into seeing things as the person doing so does. In this case it did not have the effect he wanted, if fact just turns of the desire for constructive dialogue, not to mention the error in his logic and understanding of such "revelation" as it pertains to us today.

[WysteriaBlue]

I do "believe" that it is done often for the dead and many have been sealed to those that that wished to be or did not know....

It is seen in widowers who have remarried including two of the current leaders of the church.

It is a concern, and there are those that have searched records of sealing and seen lists of women sealed to men that were not their husbands but died single.

It does scare me....I do have faith in those much more knowledgeable than me, but snarky comments about 'just do them all and let Jesus sort it out later' are appalling.

I will not cite sources or admit where i learned of such things, nor of the stories of many of Joseph Smith's wives and what they wanted or did not want but happened.

 

I think the real question will, as it should be, become how can we better deal with this in the future and gain more clarity from the prophets i hope.

 

wb

Edited October 22, 2014 by WysteriaBlue

[Guest]

I disagree, and don't believe there is any teaching, scripture or doctrine to back you up.

This is not my opinion, but my observation as the Church would never want to hope for that kind of thing to bring growth almost to a halt.. Except among men who would join only because of it. Nor would the Church want the kind of abuses that happened in the early Church. So I will stand by my statement, it will never be reinstated. If so and I was told I should comply, I would be gone...I am a one woman man. Nothing would allow me or cause me t break my wife's heart...it is not in me to do such a thing.

[JLHPROF]

This is not my opinion, but my observation as the Church would never want to hope for that kind of thing to bring growth almost to a halt.. Except among men who would join only because of it. Nor would the Church want the kind of abuses that happened in the early Church. So I will stand by my statement, it will never be reinstated. If so and I was told I should comply, I would be gone...I am a one woman man. Nothing would allow me or cause me t break my wife's heart...it is not in me to do such a thing.

 

Well, now that I understand.  But I am looking at the Millennial period and the eternities.  After all, that is where our marriages are headed.

And polygamy in the eternities will be all around us every day.  We must at very least be able to accept it in principle.

[JAHS]

I didn't know we sealed dead women to all their husbands. That's another new concept to wrap my little mind around. I'm learning so much on this forum!

 

Actually when it comes to work for the dead we seal to a man all wives that he had in his life and to a woman all husbands that she had in her life.

 

At the time polygamy was instituted it was right and correct for those living at the time it was commanded. It was not a mistake.  But we are not commanded to live it now.

 

"Wherefore I, the Lord, command and revoke, as it seemeth me good;"  (D&C 56:4) 

Edited October 22, 2014 by JAHS

[Calm]

Does this then imply that we can never be exalted either?  Just asking...

 

Will be eternally alone and disconnected and pushed away from God?

 

Nope, everyone who truly desires to be one with God first and foremost above all other desires will have that and all other blessings they desire given them (this implies we will also do what God desires of us to prepare for those blessings either now or in the future when we have a witness if his Will for us). These blessings may come. In the next life. I don't know how it will operate, whether there will be dating, a matchmaking service or God will call the two to have a private meeting where he introduces them to each other as their eternal mate at which point some sort of deep and intimate knowledge of each other is opened up so their eternal love is full and strong and marriage is the next natural step (though the sealing of the Spirit in the eternities just might be the key that opens that experience...hmmm...big speculation alert here...I like it though) .

One of the founding assumptions/tenents of LDS doctrine is mortality or mortal probation continues to the resurrection even after death. We have a chance to continue learning everything we must learn in order to be able to be fully informed in making our choices for what we want to be for eternity. This is my expansion on the teaching of paradise and spirit prison, see Gospel Principles last five chapters or so for the core, essential doctrine. Other LDS may divide physical mortality from the spiritual mortality that continues after death until our spirit and body are joined in one eternal perfect soul never to be separated through physical or spiritual death again, but I prefer to see death as moving to a different university to take up post graduate work.

According to JS this is going to take a long time to get right our understanding of what happened in physical life in the right context, but also a long, long time after death to learn all that the endowment can teach us (endowment is our preparation for receiving exhalation...I see it as a schooling method that we see just the first few grades of here). See my signature for JS's quote on continued learning post life.

[Silhouette]

Actually when it comes to work for the dead we seal to a man all wives that he had in his life and to a woman all husbands that she had in her life.

At the time polygamy was instituted it was right and correct for those living at the time it was commanded. It was not a mistake. But we are not commanded to live it now.

"Wherefore I, the Lord, command and revoke, as it seemeth me good;" (D&C 56:4)

Very interesting. I'm still learning.

[JLHPROF]

Actually when it comes to work for the dead we seal to a man all wives that he had in his life and to a woman all husbands that she had in her life.

 

At the time polygamy was instituted it was right and correct for those living at the time it was commanded. It was not a mistake.  But we are not commanded to live it now.

 

"Wherefore I, the Lord, command and revoke, as it seemeth me good;"  (D&C 56:4) 

 

Agreed, but don't forget the rest of the verse:

 

D&C 56:4  Wherefore I, the Lord, command and revoke, as it seemeth me good; and all this to be answered upon the heads of the rebellious, saith the Lord.

and

D&C 58:32 I command and men obey not; I revoke and they receive not the blessing.

and

D&C 130:20-21 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

 

What blessing have we lost by having this law revoked?  And how wonderful were they?

[The Nehor]

Since the wives of polygamous husbands actually bear a lesser number of children...and since your point is to fully populate future worlds,.

Then why not practice polyandry and have multiple men inseminating multiple wives to get the greatest number of spirit children possible?

So, how many husbands will I get?

 

Not so tasteful now is it?

I will be one. Nice, now I do not have to support a household on one income.

[Calm]

Have you read Great Divorce by CSLewis? In no way do I believe he would have seen himself as Mormon while he was living as some. lDS like to think he is LDS in all but name....no way.... but he had a truly Christian heart IMO (one who was seeking God ) and had some good analogies of what traditional Christian heaven and hell would be like, the suffering brought by the characteristics of those who chose hell and heaven was always open to those who might change their minds...but like all sin, especially pride, the level of sin will chip away at your soul and diminish the being you are and could be so you become less and less of everything you are and more and more of what you treasure most (whether that is pride, pleasure, anger, etc.

Well worth the read IMO to start getting the mind imagining the things of God that are far beyond us now so we can only consider them in parables....and sometimes I wonder if plural marriage is a parable we had to live through to get the full meaning when we are eventually taught that. Our entire life may be able to be turned into a parable even while it has value in and of itself as a life. If for example there really was a Good Samaritan, his actions are made no less of value because they are now a parable for others. Many would say that gives them greater power even.

[Calm]

Very interesting. I'm still learning.

They didn't seal parents to children in many cases either, but used the law of adoption where an adult would be sealed as a child to another adult. They aparently saw the celestrial family as more of a godking hierarchy (not surprising given the times) where one's children was the measure of one's glory so more children meant more wives as well...and since it was a hierarchy that meant the ones at the top might have billions or more of children and thousands or more of wives.

It wasn't really thought through though IMO unless there is a place we can go to order so many female spirits to counteract the close to equal birth rate here on earth. And do we really envision exalted heaven as a few men here and there in a mass of goddesses?

There is even documented an argument of two grown men debating who was going to be father and who was going to be seen as son, given the father was seen as the more honoured position.

But that all changed about 50 or more years later at least by Wilford Woodruff's revelation where he was taught it was the right order of God's family for parents to be seal together in a covenant and then children to be sealed to each parent through that covenant, and that is how we seal families today, though in the case of legal adoption of a child into a covenant family s/he is sealed to her new family. But the adopted child can still do Templework for their biological family and who knows in the next life if the sealings are accepte all around perhaps they will be sealed to both families, much like I am sealed to my husband's family and parents through his sealing as a child and our sealing as a couple while having my own sealing with my parents and siblings though my sealing as a child.

[rockpond]

Or is it still a heavenly commandment for exaltation? D&C 132 talks about it and Brigham Young in his Journal of Discourses said that the only people who become gods are the ones that enter into polygamy. We don't practice it anymore, except for those that lose a loved one and then remarry like 2 of my uncles, but should worthy men members expect to be provided multiple wives in heaven to help populate their multiple worlds with spirit children? It does make sense, but it sounds kind of unfair to the women of the church. How does this all work out?

 

You can place me in the "it was a mistake" camp, though I honor those who followed their hearts and the prophet in practicing it.  I believe it will be counted unto them for righteousness.  I happen to be a descendant of a polygamist.  

[Calm]

I do "believe" that it is done often for the dead and many have been sealed to those that that wished to be or did not know....

It is seen in widowers who have remarried including two of the current leaders of the church.

It is a concern, and there are those that have searched records of sealing and seen lists of women sealed to men that were not their husbands but died single.

It does scare me....I do have faith in those much more knowledgeable than me, but snarky comments about 'just do them all and let Jesus sort it out later' are appalling.

I will not cite sources or admit where i learned of such things, nor of the stories of many of Joseph Smith's wives and what they wanted or did not want but happened.

 

I think the real question will, as it should be, become how can we better deal with this in the future and gain more clarity from the prophets i hope.

 

wb

Practices have changed, but it is also volunteer work so people may not know proper procedure or even violate it because they "know" better than leaders what should be done. Thus we get people doing work for celebrities or making up relationships to make the paperwork go through, but rules are much more strict, family relationship is required in most cases, and with tech improving they can even lose their access to the Church records so are unable to submit names easily. I suspect they can if they provide thorough documentation. We should have a chat sometime on this, I got into genealogy pretty heavy in the past and have kept up with history and policy and controversy over the years. I think there are good answers for most questions, but a few do ultimately come down to do you trust that God wants us to be joyful and loved and live the best lives ever...and at that point we need to leave the general future to him, but I do believe he may reveal to inviduals that they will be eternally together if they are faithful to him and their selves and their relationship, but that revelation applies to their case and not to all.

Where errors have crept in, corrections are being done where possible, but we will likely have to wait until the Millennium when the dead can tell us for themselves what sealings should be done and what needs to be taken off the records.

[why me]

It was explained to me thusly:

It'll be necessary in exaltation for men to have multiple wives simply because there won't be enough worthy men to go around. The reason given was that men are more carnal by nature, and fewer males than females will make it to that point.

Now, gentlemen of this thread, I sure mean no insult to you.This is simply what I was taught long ago by my Home Teacher when I broached the subject. It made sense to me, and I've never had a problem with the idea since then.

I think that a more practical reason would be that it was a commandment that some selected saints had to follow. It was necessary because there needed to be restoration of all things.

[why me]

You can place me in the "it was a mistake" camp, though I honor those who followed their hearts and the prophet in practicing it.  I believe it will be counted unto them for righteousness.  I happen to be a descendant of a polygamist.  

This would be hard to defend since an angel appeared to Joseph Smith and commanded him to get on with polygamy. It seems that if it were a mistake the mistake would have come from heaven. Unless of course Joseph was lying about the angel. And if so, then the logical result would be that the church was not true. It becomes a matter of faith that the practice came from god.